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Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842252
04/25/19 08:23 AM
04/25/19 08:23 AM
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Remember that any piano with let off simulation emulates an entirely unrelated aftertouch, which is the last part of the key travel in a grand piano, when the hammer is in free flight. Of course the AvantGrands and the NV-10 have this type of aftertouch. As aftertouch on a grand is the part of key travel that can't in any way control the sound, it's the complete opposite of synth aftertouch. I wonder which use of the term would be more familiar to the majority of AG and NV-10 players.

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Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: johnstaf] #2842257
04/25/19 08:38 AM
04/25/19 08:38 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
Remember that any piano with let off simulation emulates an entirely unrelated aftertouch, which is the last part of the key travel in a grand piano, when the hammer is in free flight. Of course the AvantGrands and the NV-10 have this type of aftertouch. As aftertouch on a grand is the part of key travel that can't in any way control the sound, it's the complete opposite of synth aftertouch. I wonder which use of the term would be more familiar to the majority of AG and NV-10 players.

I wonder what form of aftertouch is Pianoteq using? Furthermore, if the AvantGrands have re-purposed the MIDI aftertouch messages, I wonder what Pianoteq and any other VSTs that interpret this message, do with this? Or has Yamaha re-purposed it in a way that it would normally be ignored by software VSTs?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2842294
04/25/19 10:19 AM
04/25/19 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Furthermore, if the AvantGrands have re-purposed the MIDI aftertouch messages, I wonder what Pianoteq and any other VSTs that interpret this message, do with this? Or has Yamaha re-purposed it in a way that it would normally be ignored by software VSTs?


That's a good question to ask on a PT forum. But here, what were left with is 3 distinct definitions for the same term:

Synth pressure/MIDI aftertouch, grand piano aftertouch, and AvantGrand aftertouch. Couldn't get more convoluted if you tried!


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2842304
04/25/19 10:55 AM
04/25/19 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by johnstaf
Remember that any piano with let off simulation emulates an entirely unrelated aftertouch, which is the last part of the key travel in a grand piano, when the hammer is in free flight. Of course the AvantGrands and the NV-10 have this type of aftertouch. As aftertouch on a grand is the part of key travel that can't in any way control the sound, it's the complete opposite of synth aftertouch. I wonder which use of the term would be more familiar to the majority of AG and NV-10 players.

I wonder what form of aftertouch is Pianoteq using? Furthermore, if the AvantGrands have re-purposed the MIDI aftertouch messages, I wonder what Pianoteq and any other VSTs that interpret this message, do with this? Or has Yamaha re-purposed it in a way that it would normally be ignored by software VSTs?

If Pianoteq is using aftertouch, then it must be the pressure-sensing type. The acoustic piano type aftertouch has no bearing on the sound. It isn't even a value that the player can affect in any way. It is simply a constant that is always the same, no matter what the pianist does: For the given key, with the given regulation, the acoustic type aftertouch is always the same. It is simply the name for a certain distance measurement: The key dip distance between the letoff point and the fully depressed key. Probably 1-2mm or so.
The pressure-sensing type however does make sense for Pianoteq to use. Not for the piano voices, but for the clavichord, because an acoustic clavichord is pressure sensitive too.

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: Bobby Simons] #2842339
04/25/19 01:23 PM
04/25/19 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Simons
Your LX88 may be semi-weighted, but there are plenty of 88 key controllers with piano actions. . . the Kawai VPC-1, Studiologic SL88 Grand, Studiologic SL88 Stage, NI Komplete Kontrol S88, Arturia KeyLab 88, Akai MPK Road 88, the very affordable M-Audio Hammer 88, etc., etc.

Ya, but if I Want to play strings, I don't want a piano action. That's my point. The right tool for the job, and I'm still not clear on what the OP is asking for.

Last edited by Morodiene; 04/25/19 01:24 PM.

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Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: JoBert] #2842409
04/25/19 04:50 PM
04/25/19 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
If Pianoteq is using aftertouch, then it must be the pressure-sensing type. The acoustic piano type aftertouch has no bearing on the sound. It isn't even a value that the player can affect in any way. (...)
The pressure-sensing type however does make sense for Pianoteq to use. Not for the piano voices, but for the clavichord, because an acoustic clavichord is pressure sensitive too.


Pianoteq is using the aftertouch messages in MIDI files at least for two different purposes (1) to simulate pressure-sensitive instruments and (2) to support Yamaha's MIDI XP format. The former is "true" aftertouch/channel pressure sensing as defined in the MIDI 1 specification and is used on the clavichords in the Kivir instrument collection. The latter is Yamaha's proprietary use of aftertouch since it was not adopted by the MIDI MMA - actually, Yamaha's e-seq format preceded the MIDI specification and was one of its foundations. Pianoteq and some MIDI players support the XP format a it has been around for almost 20 years since the Disklavier Pro was introduced.

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842427
04/25/19 05:50 PM
04/25/19 05:50 PM
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Why bother about aftertouch on a digital keyboard? The aftertouch ican be felt on a real piano when the hammer shank is released to travel the few mms before the hammer strikes. If the release mechanism --- Needs---- lubricating with some graphite or teflon powder you can feel a sluggish resistance .That needs to be minimised for smooth playing. It`s there but it`s not particularly desirable . Technicians will tell you the release of the hammer shank will prevent the shank from breaking . For some reason the aftertouch has become part of pianists "Technique " where it should be left to the technician to keep the action smooth . If players have a hazy notion of what aftertouch is they might not ask for a technician to call and sort it out . Digital salesmen may use the phrase to pretend they are selling something special .which does not exist .
Heavy key pressure is subjective but technicians measure the down key movement with a metal weight ..Anyone can look up how much weight should press the keys down .You can make a direct comparison between digitals and real pianos .Use a pile of 5 pence pieces .

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2842481
04/25/19 09:25 PM
04/25/19 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
Originally Posted by BigIslandGuy
[...] a good keyboard with the full complement of MIDI outputs, such as after touch etc.


Your Yamaha Arius has no after touch.

I don't think Pianoteq supports after touch in any way. (And I can't think what that way would even be.)

So is after touch really a requirement?

Pianoteq does support it. My current DP doesn't though.

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: Morodiene] #2842484
04/25/19 09:35 PM
04/25/19 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
digital pianos generally don't support aftertouch. (Does yours?)

You are probably right. But I believe one that does support aftertouch is the Yamaha Avantgrand - at least I've seen mention of this on this forum for the N1X.

No, this is a misunderstanding. The AvantGrands don't have aftertouch either - not as this term is used for electronic keyboards (Wikipedia: "Aftertouch, or pressure sensitivity - the amount of pressure on a key, once already held down").

What the AvantGrands do is, that they re-purpose the aftertouch MIDI message (since it is not used for it's original purpose of pressure sensing) to send information about the key release. But this is a proprietary solution and has nothing to do with actual aftertouch.

So then I guess the question is: which aftertouch did the OP want? My mind immediately went to the definition of pressure after the key has been pressed, used mainly in synth-type sounds since the OP was talking about a MIDI controller.

But I'm also confused by the OP's request for something to practice piano on after hours, but then requesting a controller only. Most controllers do not have piano actions, but synth actions to accommodate non-piano sounds.

I own a controller that has no sounds and it has a synth action - the Nektar Impact LX88, but for silent practice on piano, I use the Kawai MP11. The MP11 works great as a controller, but since it is a piano action, it's not the best to play string sounds or organ. If you're looking for a piano-only controller (with no pitch bend or mod wheel) then the Kawai VPC1 is perfect for that.

The after touch is not a really big deal. I just figured it would good to have since Pianoteq supports it. As for wanting just the controller, that is because I don't want to spend money duplicating what Pianoteq does already. I'd rather the money I spend go into a quality action that can compliment my acoustic. As mentioned just above, there are indeed a number of controllers with serious actions. My dilemma is of course which one. smile

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842498
04/25/19 10:44 PM
04/25/19 10:44 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by BigIslandGuy
As mentioned just above, there are indeed a number of controllers with serious actions. My dilemma is of course which one. smile

However, if you are only allowing pure controllers without sound generator or speakers, there are probably only 3 that would be most authentic:
  • Kawai VPC1
  • Ravenworks VPC1 (even more authentic because it is professionally regulated, but 3x as expensive)
  • Lachnit MK23 (another professionally regulated MIDI controller)


If you will allow a sound generator to be in the product, then you can add a few others including the Kawai MP11SE.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: Jt2nd] #2842626
04/26/19 10:10 AM
04/26/19 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Jt2nd
Why bother about aftertouch on a digital keyboard? The aftertouch ican be felt on a real piano when the hammer shank is released to travel the few mms before the hammer strikes. If the release mechanism --- Needs---- lubricating with some graphite or teflon powder you can feel a sluggish resistance .That needs to be minimised for smooth playing. It`s there but it`s not particularly desirable . .


Indeed -- it's like throwing a bag of manure under the driver's seat to make your car smell like a horse. ;-)


-- J.S.

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Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842690
04/26/19 02:10 PM
04/26/19 02:10 PM
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I just realised I was wrong about aftertouch .Even when the action is working smoothly it is still easy to feel the contact through the key and if a player is playing softly and quietly there is an instant in time when the pianist plays the note precisely when it`s needed .Not a moment sooner or later .That is very important to a fine musician . It comes under expression .So in the case of digitals it makes absolute sense to mimic that moment when the note can be finely controlled .
Apologies for my ignorance from yesterday .
There is an interesting invention fitted to Petrof pianos where the lead weights in the keys have been replaced with two pairs of magnets.This gives an adjustable touch weight that can be at the standard weight or much lighter .The benefit is , the inertial mass of the lead weights is removed without any bad effect on the playing.The key almost seem to stick to the fingers as the keys return so quickly . Younger players with weaker fingers can also play in comfort with the lighter adjustment . .Digitals may catch up with that when patent laws allow it .

Last edited by Jt2nd; 04/26/19 02:12 PM. Reason: Misspelling.
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842767
04/26/19 07:54 PM
04/26/19 07:54 PM
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Thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts on this. I'm leaning towards the Kawai VPC-1, although the Ravenworks was mentioned as being a little better yet. If this were to be my only piano, I might go for that one, but since I have the S &S B, I can always go to that for that last bit of perfection. I'm just looking for something closer to "real" for silent practice than my YDP-162 is, while keeping the wife happy right after spending a wad on the B. Happy wife, happy life. The Kawai seems like it might be in that sweet spot as far as bang for the buck. Wish I could try them out, but living in the boonies as we do, that's not an option. No music stores here with that kind of stuff.

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842794
04/26/19 10:14 PM
04/26/19 10:14 PM
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I would buy a Kawai MP11SE instead of the VPC1, as it has a better action.

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: johnstaf] #2842804
04/27/19 12:24 AM
04/27/19 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by johnstaf
I would buy a Kawai MP11SE instead of the VPC1, as it has a better action.

Thanks for the tip. I'll check it out more. All I really want is the controller, but if the action is better, I'd consider it even though I don't need the other stuff on there.

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842810
04/27/19 01:50 AM
04/27/19 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by BigIslandGuy
I'm leaning towards the Kawai VPC-1, although the Ravenworks was mentioned as being a little better yet.

The Ravenworks is better because he starts with the Kawai and then professional regulates it. Each Ravenworks has 40 hours of labor (regulation) put into it. I believe there are some Youtube videos of it.

(BTW, not saying you should get this - it's 3x more. Personally, I would consider a low-end hybrid before this, but I don't have a requirement for a strict "MIDI controller" without sound generation.)


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842819
04/27/19 02:50 AM
04/27/19 02:50 AM
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Who owns (or has tried) this Ravenized VPC keyboard?

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: MacMacMac] #2842823
04/27/19 03:13 AM
04/27/19 03:13 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Who owns (or has tried) this Ravenized VPC keyboard?

vmishka over on the Pianist Corner forum tried it a few years ago at a music exhibition and said at that time that it was impressively good. I haven't asked him to compare with the MP11SE though. I contacted the owner Ravenworks (who is a piano technician and creator of the Ravenscroft Grand) about 6 months ago and it was clear there was no way to try it myself without going to Colorado, so I lost interest. I can afford a hybrid instead, and don't have a requirement to not have a sound generator/speakers, so I will just go hybrid instead since I can try that anywhere.

PianoManChuck did a review of the Ravenworks VPC1 a few NAMMs back.

I would only see going to the trouble of going to Colorado to try it out (as for such an odd duck, trying is definitely needed) if one were seeking out a portable slab-like form factor with the most realistic action. That isn't my use-case.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842824
04/27/19 03:21 AM
04/27/19 03:21 AM
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Posts: 9,679
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Rephrase: Who HERE has tried the Ravenworks VPC ?

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: MacMacMac] #2842829
04/27/19 03:30 AM
04/27/19 03:30 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Rephrase: Who HERE has tried the Ravenworks VPC ?

PianoManChuck is here. He isn't in this particular thread though. He could be PM'ed to come visit this thread and comment I suppose.

EDIT: PianoManChuck has been participating in the Dexibell thread so I just responded to him there and asked if he would visit this thread and compare the Ravenworks VPC1 to the MP11SE.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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