Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Tuner-Technicians Forum Install Damp Chaser in 100 year old Piano??

I have been working on an old upright (at least 100 years old) that my customer inherited from her family. She wants to keep it and it never had a Damp Chaser in it. It is in fairly good condition although I do have to work on all the pins soon as it will not keep very good tune. But, as it looks right now at some point some work has been done to it. For instance I see the still white but fading bridle straps and there are no string splices. Anyway she is interested in installing a Damp Chaser system but is afraid the piano is too old and the system will not help it much. She asked me that question "Will the DC help this old piano?" I couldn't be honest in my reply as I really do not know. So, I'm asking some of you who have experience what would you reply to her very fair question?

There are other that will reply that have lots of experience with the DC system. I use a product called MusicSorb. It's not as invasive as DC and there's nothing for the customer to do, as in watering the piano and changing pads. Is it as good as DC? Don't know. How do you measure these things? I've found it helpful with many pianos I service although it's certainly no miracle cure for a piano going out of tune. Then again, neither is DC.

I don't have any hard data...but I think I've noticed that the old 100 year old pianos don't seem to undergo the seasonal pitch swings with humidity to the degree that newer pianos do. Maybe it has something to do with the soundboard being old, and flat and tired?

If tuning stability is an issue, a DC will help. If tuning stability is not an issue, why spend the money?

With an old piano, it's often a matter of triage. Would she be better off replacing the bass bridge, replacing or reshaping the hammers, recovering the keys, etc?

Then, there's the question of whether she'd be better off putting that money towards a new or rebuilt piano.

What is the biggest problem this piano has?

What will give her the greatest improvement per dollar?

If tuning stability is an issue, make sure that there aren't mechanical reasons before installing a DC.... split bridges, loose tuning pins, soundboard coming unglued around the perimeter, etc.

Duane,

Have you ever installed a system before?

Pwg

I have installed four of them. Why?

Have they improved the pianos?

Would you say?

Pwg

I would say a definite yes to that, Peter, but that's beside the point as my customer is asking "the piano is over 100 years old is it worth it to pay that much money to install this system in that old a piano?" It's a fair question it seems to me. I will ask it this way then "Would any of you put out the money to install a DC in a piano that is that old?" Would you, Peter?

I tell my customers that in an old piano, the Damppchaser system is not for the piano, it's for the ears of the user. The only reason to put the system in a 100-year-old piano is if there is a reasonable hope that it will make the sweetness of the tuning last longer. I also note that the system can be transferred to a newer piano when one is purchased.

"I also note that the system can be transferred to a newer piano when one is purchased"

Excellent point, Floyd, I also have noted this to my customer, but only if they get another "vertical."

I agree with that.

Pwg

Measure the humidity. If it's not excessive (over 70% a significant part of the time), then you don't need to control it.

I have installed many Dampp-Chaser systems in older upright pianos, and yes, they are helpful. Anything you can do to help maintain a consistent humidity level will be helpful.

I am a strong proponent of the system. If they like their piano and want to do what's best for it, controlling the humidity (either ambient or internal, or both) is the single best thing they can do for it.

Installing a back cover in addition will also help it's effectiveness.

Pwg

Hey, Peter Ready? LOL

The answer to your question, Duaner, is 'yes, it will help it'... But then, so would a humidifier for the winter months (which is most of the year up here in these parts......really do wish the sun would shine, and it would get above 50!).

So anyway, I agree with the previous reply in spending the money elsewhere... Should tell her to get a cheap humidifier for the room for the winter and spend the money on the piano to get it to play better. With the current costs of CC systems, one could go a long way to improve that piano!
Control 'the piano's area' of the room...Locate a hot-mist humidifier (cold-mist are junk) somewhere near the piano, as the will dissipate too quickly in a large room if put across the room). I have seen small humidifiers do wonders when placed near a piano in a room (not blowing on it!). Entire room's humidity doesn't get quite so high as the 'local environment' of the piano...Which is a good thing.

I had a customer that has a Willis of Montreal located in her old house... Never held tune very well for 4 years, while I had been telling her each year to get a humidifier and place it near the piano (it was a large room)... She FINALLY did it this past November!!! I got there to tune, and the piano that I had always had to pitch raise from about -20 to -25 before tuning it, was sitting at a beautiful -4 cents from A440! Not only that, but the tone of the bass section had improved- the soundboard had benefitted obviously. Humidifier was placed some 3 feet from the piano. Come summer, she'll open up during our naturally humid months, and the piano won't be moving much at all now...
This is simply one of many clients this past 2 years that I have begun to finally convince to do this... All of them are doing much better now!
So, yes- you can get the CC system and install it- but why?

Edit: The Willis of Montreal was from 1920's... So, right at 100 years old.

Converting a vertical system to a grand system is a reasonably economical process. The upgrade parts are available from Damppchaser. I keep a kit on hand, together with the appropriate dehumidifier bars, so that I can do a grand installation even if I only have a boxed vertical system in stock.

Speaking as a non-professional - but as a fluid dynamicist - I would agree. There are all sorts of good points in this thread about why Dampp Chasers may be good, or may not be worth the money, or why room humidification may be a good idea. But I do not see that the piano being old is relevant to the effectiveness of the DC.

Rick,

You can't argue with results. What brand(s) hot mist humidifier have you found particularly useful? I'm willing to try it.

Pwg

If you accept the premise that at least part of the change in pitch comes from the wood of the soundboard expanding to increase the "crown" then I would think it would be relevant if it were an old, flat, and maybe cracked soundboard with zero downbearing.

Sounds great, except...
The humidity is going "somewhere". Unless the house has an internal vapor barrier, that "somewhere" may be into the walls and the insulation that may be located there. In any event, it will condense whenever it reaches the dew point.

It's true that the water vapor in a DC system is also going "somewhere" -- but it is a much lower volume over a longer period of time. I suspect that a hot vapor room humidifier would put out as much moisture in a day as a DC system does in a week -- at least in mid-FEB here in our area where outside temps can get to -20ºF.

I'm not disputing the results you describe at all. This may be a good solution for some situations. However, unless a person can have some confidence in where the vapor is going, it may be one of those "unanticipated consequences" kind of situations.