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Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2841205 04/21/19 12:56 PM
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I don't dislike modeled piano sounds.
I simply like piano sounds that sound like a piano.
That excludes Pianoteq ... because it doesn't.

I don't know of any other modeled piano sounds.
But if such exists and actually sounds like a piano, well ...

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Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
MacMacMac #2841225 04/21/19 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I simply like piano sounds that sound like a piano.
That excludes Pianoteq ... because it doesn't.

Pianoteq sounds like a piano to me. The FP30 doesn't sound like a piano to me. So I do get this is a matter of personal preference.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Tyrone Slothrop #2841248 04/21/19 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I simply like piano sounds that sound like a piano.
That excludes Pianoteq ... because it doesn't.

Pianoteq sounds like a piano to me. The FP30 doesn't sound like a piano to me. So I do get this is a matter of personal preference.

Aye. A thousand times, aye...to the first part. Still don't agree with the word "preference". Perception, of authenticity. Preferences are for strawberries versus raspberries, both real fruit.

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842168 04/25/19 03:23 AM
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Im so confused.....I don't know what to think anymore. I watched some clips on Youtube with titles like "The best free VST" and a couple of people were talking about Spitfire Soft Piano, and that it sounded really good.....so I downloaded it....tried it out, and it is TERRIBLE......it sound really really bad. It's like the sound is trapped inside a tin, and you are listening to it from the outside. If there is nothing wrong with my setup, and it sounds like this to everybody.....how can people recommend it, and say that it sounds good? I don't get it.

Then I came across Eighty Eight Ensemble 2.0 by SONiVOX, and there was a free trial for 15 days ( I think) and that one sounds really good! The best one so far!

So now at least I know it can sound good. But Im still confused over some VST's that people review, and tell you it sounds good......and it even sounds good to me listening to them on Youtube....but when I try them out they or not only bad.....they are awful!

Has anyone tried out Spitfires Soft Piano? Maybe someone has tried out the one from SONiVOX and think that one sounds terrible? ;-)

Last edited by Gimbal; 04/25/19 03:24 AM.
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842171 04/25/19 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
So now at least I know it can sound good. But Im still confused over some VST's that people review, and tell you it sounds good......and it even sounds good to me listening to them on Youtube....but when I try them out they or not only bad.....they are awful!

Has anyone tried out Spitfires Soft Piano? Maybe someone has tried out the one from SONiVOX and think that one sounds terrible? ;-)

Why are you asking for opinions, Gimbal, when your own tastes and preferences are so specific? For example, what sounds great to me sounds terrible to you. So why are you asking people for their opinions? Since you already realize from the reviews that your particular tastes/preferences are so specific, I think you should just ignore all feedback from anyone, and just listen to a bunch of VSTs running on your computer and pick what you personally like.

In your case, I fully endorse MacMacMac's generally expressed viewpoint on this forum that no amount of reviews and analysis will substitute for your own personal evaluation.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Tyrone Slothrop #2842179 04/25/19 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Gimbal
So now at least I know it can sound good. But Im still confused over some VST's that people review, and tell you it sounds good......and it even sounds good to me listening to them on Youtube....but when I try them out they or not only bad.....they are awful!

Has anyone tried out Spitfires Soft Piano? Maybe someone has tried out the one from SONiVOX and think that one sounds terrible? ;-)

Why are you asking for opinions, Gimbal, when your own tastes and preferences are so specific? For example, what sounds great to me sounds terrible to you. So why are you asking people for their opinions? Since you already realize from the reviews that your particular tastes/preferences are so specific, I think you should just ignore all feedback from anyone, and just listen to a bunch of VSTs running on your computer and pick what you personally like.

In your case, I fully endorse MacMacMac's generally expressed viewpoint on this forum that no amount of reviews and analysis will substitute for your own personal evaluation.


Because it's not that I just don't like the sound! Of course I know that we all have different taste! But some of these VST's sound AWFUL! And I think they sound great listening to others play them on Youtube. I mean, it's so terrible I couldn't play it for a couple of minutes without my ears hurting......and I don't think there is anyone who can say that Spitfires Soft Piano (for an example) sounds good in my setup! So I still believe there must be something wrong, with the hardware, software, drivers etc. It's not that easy as a difference in taste, it can't be.....

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842186 04/25/19 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
Because it's not that I just don't like the sound! Of course I know that we all have different taste! But some of these VST's sound AWFUL! ... It's not that easy as a difference in taste, it can't be.....

Yes, it can be! Example: you said Pianoteq sounds bad to you. It sounds great to me running on my PC and playing through my headphones. It also sounds great to many others. Still others think it sounds terrible and so you aren't alone in thinking it sounds bad. Last time we did an informal count on one of my threads, it seemed pretty equally divided between Pianoteq haters and lovers. That some think it sounds great and like a real instrument and others such as you think it sounds bad or terrible and not like a real instrument says this is indeed, a difference of taste.

Those who ignore such clear evidence under the premise that their particular preferences are actually "universal" would be falling prey to a form of "egocentric fallacy" (definition: the mistaken belief that our own personal experience and values generally are held by others. We often use our own beliefs and values to explain the attitudes, motivations, and behaviors of other.)


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Tyrone Slothrop #2842190 04/25/19 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Gimbal
Because it's not that I just don't like the sound! Of course I know that we all have different taste! But some of these VST's sound AWFUL! ... It's not that easy as a difference in taste, it can't be.....

Yes, it can be! Example: you said Pianoteq sounds bad to you. It sounds great to me running on my PC and playing through my headphones. It also sounds great to many others. Still others think it sounds terrible and so you aren't alone in thinking it sounds bad. Last time we did an informal count on one of my threads, it seemed pretty equally divided between Pianoteq haters and lovers. That some think it sounds great and like a real instrument and others such as you think it sounds bad or terrible and not like a real instrument says this is indeed, a difference of taste.

Those who ignore such clear evidence under the assumption that their particular preferences are actually "universal" would be falling prey to a form of "egocentric fallacy" (definition: the mistaken belief that our own personal experience and values generally are held by others. We often use our own beliefs and values to explain the attitudes, motivations, and behaviors of other.)


Im just finding it hard to believe. It's one thing to don't like the sound.....don't being fond of it.....to think that it sound like S*IT. I don't think you would be able to sit down in my home and play Pianoteq and enjoy it......but maybe Im wrong. And why do I think Pianoteq sounds good in Youtube videos, and on my setup it sound like a cheep plastic toy keyboard? :-/

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842191 04/25/19 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
Im just finding it hard to believe. It's one thing to don't like the sound.....don't being fond of it.....to think that it sound like S*IT. I don't think you would be able to sit down in my home and play Pianoteq and enjoy it......but maybe Im wrong. And why do I think Pianoteq sounds good in Youtube videos, and on my setup it sound like a cheep plastic toy keyboard? :-/

Well, there are a number of factors at play here if I were to sit down at your particular keyboard: PC itself (is it fast enough? is its Digital/Analog Converter (DAC) working properly), which virtual instrument you are using (I personally think D and K2 sound cr@ppy), what amplifier you are using, what speakers/headphones you use, how is your room acoustics (if using speakers).

However, if there aren't any issues with any of the above and you are using default settings on Pianoteq, then it is indeed preference because for me and approx. half the people very informally surveyed on this forum late last year, Pianoteq sounds good and like a real piano.

In fact, the big 3 VSTs seem to be Pianoteq, Garritan CFX full, and VSL Steinway D. It seems most everyone likes at least one piano among these three. If you don't like any of these, then you yet again have evidence of the specificity of your personal preferences. Don't fall for the egocentric fallacy.

Slight aside about the individuality of preferences and perception, you might be amused to search on the digital forum for the word "bongo" as you will see some related discussion on this topic of preferences and perception.

BTW, if you check out this thread, you will see other committing the egocentric fallacy. In this case, it is something like: "I hear this. Anyone who says differently is committing a hoax!"


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842193 04/25/19 04:56 AM
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When I moved Pianoteq from my laptop to another PC, the sound quality improved by rather a lot. Conclusion: hardware matters.

Are you hearing Pianoteq, as played by yourself, via the same sound reproduction system that you listen to Youtube videos over? If not, the difference in hardware may play a part.

With Pianoteq, it is important to be aware of the HUGE influence of the velocity curve. If I choose a standard velocity curve, everything will sound really bad. If I choose one of my carefully crafted velocity curves, the sound is absolutely tolerable.

But, on the other hand, in my opinion every single VST sounds pathetic compared to an acoustic grand - even one badly out of tune!


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Synthogy Ivory II Studio Grands, Production Voices Estate Grand, Garritan CFX Lite, Pianoteq 7.0 (Blüthner, Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2)
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842203 04/25/19 05:32 AM
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@Gimbal: I'm with you on this. Some VSTs sound positively terrible. And not just the freebie home-made giveaways you find online. Even the pro items can be crap.

So ask yourself: Do I like this sound? Do I care whether someone else does?
You surely must use a VST that YOU like.
You only need to use one that OTHERS like if those others are your audience,. If they're not, it doesn't matter, eh?

As for just how much opinions differ ...

Many here love Pianoteq. Yet I rate it as one of the worst. (Not THE worst ... there are indeed worser ones. Yes, worser.) smile

I like the Vintage D and Grandeur, and I use them the most by far. Others here might (a) point to faults in these, and prefer other VSTs or (b) neglect these because they're "old", and all the buzz is about the newer items.

I somewhat like my pair of Bosendorfer-sampled VSTs. But some people have expressed disdain for the Bosie sound.

I don't like the Yamaha (acoustic) sound as much as the Steinway, so the current crop of CFX-based VSTs are not a draw for me. But others love that sound.

In short, opinions are spread all over the map. (Oooh ... I used a crap cliche there. Please forgive.)
And as has been pointed out above, equipment varies, too.

So don't be surprised at the variety of opinions.
Originally Posted by Gimbal
Im just finding it hard to believe. It's one thing to don't like the sound.....don't being fond of it.....to think that it sound like S*IT. I don't think you would be able to sit down in my home and play Pianoteq and enjoy it......but maybe Im wrong. And why do I think Pianoteq sounds good in Youtube videos, and on my setup it sound like a cheep plastic toy keyboard? :-/

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842208 04/25/19 05:59 AM
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One of the biggest reasons to why I got all this gear to be able to play VST's was because of this video;

NOIRE

I think it sounds AMAZING! Such a beautiful sound!

But Im afraid that if i buy it for €150 and try it out......it will sound terrible (for some reason)

The same Youtuber (Woody) is also playing Pianoteq on his channel, and that also sounds amazing......but through my speakers and headphones it sound awful!

I wish you could hear how it sounds.....

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
MacMacMac #2842211 04/25/19 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
In short, opinions are spread all over the map. (Oooh ... I used a crap cliche there. Please forgive.


One way to avoid getting a reputation for using cliches would be to edit them out of your text before publishing it. That way, there would be no need for going down on your knees to beg for forgiveness. But I do understand the urge to publish and be damned - I really do. smile


Roland HP 302 / Samson Graphite 49 / Akai EWI

Reaper / Native Instruments K9 ult / ESQL MOR2 Symph Orchestra & Choirs / Lucato & Parravicini , trumpets & saxes / Garritan CFX lite / Production Voices C7 & Steinway D compact

Focusrite Saffire 24 / W7, i7 4770, 16GB / MXL V67g / Yamaha HS7s / HD598
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842216 04/25/19 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
But Im afraid that if i buy it for €150 and try it out......it will sound terrible (for some reason)

And so? If you buy it and it does sound terrible to you, then just sell your license second hand to someone else. If you offer a small discount from the N.I. price, you should have no trouble getting rid of it if you end up hating it.

You just are not going to be able to have others predict for you your own reaction to these VSTs.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
QuasiUnaFantasia #2842228 04/25/19 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Are you hearing Pianoteq, as played by yourself, via the same sound reproduction system that you listen to Youtube videos over? If not, the difference in hardware may play a part.


To OP, you should address this question.
For Pianoteq (or any other VSTs, I use Pianoteq for an example, as there are a lot of recordings and opinions about them around), people who dislike it are dissatisfied with both recordings by others and the sound played by themselves.
So it would be really strange that you like the recordings, but can't stand the sound from your setup.

I can't think of what could be wrong though.
Did you calibrate velocity curve for your keyboard?

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Tyrone Slothrop #2842230 04/25/19 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Gimbal
But Im afraid that if i buy it for €150 and try it out......it will sound terrible (for some reason)

And so? If you buy it and it does sound terrible to you, then just sell your license second hand to someone else. If you offer a small discount from the N.I. price, you should have no trouble getting rid of it if you end up hating it.

You just are not going to be able to have others predict for you your own reaction to these VSTs.


I know, and thats not what this is all about. It's about that I think that there must be something wrong with my setup. I have no other explanation to why Pianoteq sounds amazing when Im hearing Woody and others play it on Youtube, and that is sounds so much worse when I play it myself.

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842232 04/25/19 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
It's about that I think that there must be something wrong with my setup. I have no other explanation to why Pianoteq sounds amazing when Im hearing Woody and others play it on Youtube, and that is sounds so much worse when I play it myself.

Try this experiment. Grab the 3 files in this post over here. Listen to the Pianoteq WAV file and see if you think it sounds decent. If so, then download the MIDI file to your setup (play it out of your piano if you can since some piano will play MIDI files from USB flash drives, but if not, just open the file in your Pianoteq trial version) and play it through your computer, amp, headphones/speaker. Except for a few missing notes (from the trial version) and that your system should have a drier sound (since the WAV file uses a 3rd party reverb add-on, East West Spaces II), playing back the MIDI file through your system should reproduce substantially the same sound as in the WAV version. If this isn't true, then it may indeed be that you have some sort of hardware or setup/config issue.

EDIT: BTW, although this is an acoustical Steinway instead of an acoustical Bluthner as in the above files, you can also compare with this recording as a sanity check of "authenticity" of the piano sound.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842244 04/25/19 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal

But Im afraid that if i buy it for €150 and try it out......it will sound terrible (for some reason)

The same Youtuber (Woody) is also playing Pianoteq on his channel, and that also sounds amazing......but through my speakers and headphones it sound awful!

I wish you could hear how it sounds.....

VST makers could simply upload renderings of the dry unprocessed VST output: Scales, polyphonic music played without pedal etc. So you could play those back through your setup and listen to the exact sound, the VST would output as well. They could even give you a demo VST, which doesn't accept MIDI input and just plays sound demos.

They avoid this - because it usually sounds terrible. Instead you get fancy pictures, long marketing texts and YouTube people praising the expensive software...

Why are you still concerning yourself with this?


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2842269 04/25/19 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
One of the biggest reasons to why I got all this gear to be able to play VST's was because of this video;

NOIRE

I think it sounds AMAZING! Such a beautiful sound!

But Im afraid that if i buy it for €150 and try it out......it will sound terrible (for some reason)

The same Youtuber (Woody) is also playing Pianoteq on his channel, and that also sounds amazing......but through my speakers and headphones it sound awful!

I wish you could hear how it sounds.....

Noire is really excellent piano, I have it and I use it all the time and its really sounds good. Difference between listening others and listening while playing yours really exist, but it shouldn`t be too much. If it is, then give yourself some time to adapt. Try first with headphones and then with speakers. Try with different hardware and space. Change location in your room or apartment. It will make a big difference. With time it will sound good for you and then you can make a more valid conclusions what VST you like and what VST you like less. Good luck.

Last edited by slobajudge; 04/25/19 09:13 AM.
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
JoeT #2842272 04/25/19 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Gimbal

But Im afraid that if i buy it for €150 and try it out......it will sound terrible (for some reason)

The same Youtuber (Woody) is also playing Pianoteq on his channel, and that also sounds amazing......but through my speakers and headphones it sound awful!

I wish you could hear how it sounds.....

VST makers could simply upload renderings of the dry unprocessed VST output: Scales, polyphonic music played without pedal etc. So you could play those back through your setup and listen to the exact sound, the VST would output as well. They could even give you a demo VST, which doesn't accept MIDI input and just plays sound demos.

They avoid this - because it usually sounds terrible. Instead you get fancy pictures, long marketing texts and YouTube people praising the expensive software...

Why are you still concerning yourself with this?


What do you mean why? Of course I want it to sound good. Someone also told me that you could get a much better piano sound from a VST than from any digital piano. But sure....it's not the end of the world......Im just playing around......and I really thought that there was something I was missing.....som settings or with the hardware......that made it sound worse than what I was hearing from Youtube...

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