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Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? #2842143
04/25/19 03:10 AM
04/25/19 03:10 AM
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Posts: 174
Hawai'i Island
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BigIslandGuy Offline OP
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Hawai'i Island
This may seem crazy because I just welcomed a beautiful, near new Steinway B acoustic into my home, but I also want to upgrade my digital practice setup. Even though I of course am on cloud nine when playing the B, the reality is that I have to coexist with my family who need to sleep sometimes or use the parlor, so I will still need the DP to put in what I feel I need for adequate practice time. It's also easier to record from a digital for self evaluation purposes.
My current DP setup is a Yamaha Arius (YDP-162) feeding a MIDI output to a computer running Pianoteq. I am quite satisfied with Pianoteq after spending the time to set it up correctly, but I feel a better keyboard would be in order. I don't need a full-on synth or a standalone piano, just a good keyboard with the full complement of MIDI outputs, such as after touch etc. My question is, what would do you think is the most authentic feeling MIDI keyboard out there when it comes to the action?

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Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842145
04/25/19 03:16 AM
04/25/19 03:16 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,491
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Originally Posted by BigIslandGuy
This may seem crazy because I just welcomed a beautiful, near new Steinway B acoustic into my home, but I also want to upgrade my digital practice setup. Even though I of course am on cloud nine when playing the B, the reality is that I have to coexist with my family who need to sleep sometimes or use the parlor, so I will still need the DP to put in what I feel I need for adequate practice time. It's also easier to record from a digital for self evaluation purposes.
My current DP setup is a Yamaha Arius (YDP-162) feeding a MIDI output to a computer running Pianoteq. I am quite satisfied with Pianoteq after spending the time to set it up correctly, but I feel a better keyboard would be in order. I don't need a full-on synth or a standalone piano, just a good keyboard with the full complement of MIDI outputs, such as after touch etc. My question is, what would do you think is the most authentic feeling MIDI keyboard out there when it comes to the action?

Define "MIDI keyboard" please. Are you talking about a "MIDI Controller" which is a keyboard that only generates MIDI output and has no sound generator and speakers? If so, the best is currently the Kawai VPC1, which has a rather heavy action.

If you mean by "MIDI keyboard" any keyboard that generates MIDI output whether or not it has a sound generator or speakers, then it is probably the hybrids: the Yamaha Avantgrand N1X, N2, or N3X, or the Kawai Novus NV10. There are people who use these hybrids as just a MIDI keyboard and then generate the sound on a PC running a VST, like Pianoteq. I think this latter is what you actually mean since your example of a YDP-162 is not a "MIDI Controller."


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842148
04/25/19 03:24 AM
04/25/19 03:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 374
Cheshire, UK
Cheshire Chris Offline
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I really like the keyboard action of my Yamaha P-515. I have no trouble at all moving between it and my teacher's Steinway grand.


Chris

Yamaha P-515, Yamaha Reface CP.
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2842154
04/25/19 03:38 AM
04/25/19 03:38 AM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 174
Hawai'i Island
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BigIslandGuy Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by BigIslandGuy
This may seem crazy because I just welcomed a beautiful, near new Steinway B acoustic into my home, but I also want to upgrade my digital practice setup. Even though I of course am on cloud nine when playing the B, the reality is that I have to coexist with my family who need to sleep sometimes or use the parlor, so I will still need the DP to put in what I feel I need for adequate practice time. It's also easier to record from a digital for self evaluation purposes.
My current DP setup is a Yamaha Arius (YDP-162) feeding a MIDI output to a computer running Pianoteq. I am quite satisfied with Pianoteq after spending the time to set it up correctly, but I feel a better keyboard would be in order. I don't need a full-on synth or a standalone piano, just a good keyboard with the full complement of MIDI outputs, such as after touch etc. My question is, what would do you think is the most authentic feeling MIDI keyboard out there when it comes to the action?

Define "MIDI keyboard" please. Are you talking about a "MIDI Controller" which is a keyboard that only generates MIDI output and has no sound generator and speakers? If so, the best is currently the Kawai VPC1, which has a rather heavy action.

If you mean by "MIDI keyboard" any keyboard that generates MIDI output whether or not it has a sound generator or speakers, then it is probably the hybrids: the Yamaha Avantgrand N1X, N2, or N3X, or the Kawai Novus NV10. There are people who use these hybrids as just a MIDI keyboard and then generate the sound on a PC running a VST, like Pianoteq. I think this latter is what you actually mean since your example of a YDP-162 is not a "MIDI Controller."


I guess I wasn't clear enough, sorry about that. Yes to a keyboard that is just a controller, with everything else being done by external computer, speakers etc. At the moment my YDP-162 is indeed just used in that sense, as a controller. Thanks for the recommendation on the Kawai.

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: Cheshire Chris] #2842155
04/25/19 03:38 AM
04/25/19 03:38 AM
Joined: Apr 2019
Posts: 174
Hawai'i Island
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BigIslandGuy Offline OP
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Hawai'i Island
Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
I really like the keyboard action of my Yamaha P-515. I have no trouble at all moving between it and my teacher's Steinway grand.


Thanks for the reply!

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842156
04/25/19 03:46 AM
04/25/19 03:46 AM
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Posts: 121
United States
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RyanThePianist Offline
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Just purchased a Yamaha P-515 today. It was about $1800 with all the stands, pedals, and such. The action is called NWX and it felt great at the store. Not too heavy and not too light. I personally like heavier keys in digitals. I also played a Yamaha CP-88 today, which had a NW-GH action, and I was impressed. This goes for $2500+. I own a Yamaha G3 and have played on various Steinways, so the Yamaha CP-88 in my experience is something you should try along with the Yamaha P-515. I'm sure there are other brands to look at too such as Kawai, Roland, etc.


Novice Private Piano Teacher

BA Music, Biology Minor

Yamaha G3, Yamaha P-515
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842158
04/25/19 03:51 AM
04/25/19 03:51 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 374
Cheshire, UK
Cheshire Chris Offline
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Cheshire, UK
Perhaps worth noting that the P-515 has the same keyboard as the Clavinova CLP-645, which you may find easier to try out in a store. In my part of the world far more piano stores stock the Clavinova than the P-515.



Chris

Yamaha P-515, Yamaha Reface CP.
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842160
04/25/19 03:55 AM
04/25/19 03:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,491
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,491
If you are willing to accept something like the P-515 as a MIDI keyboard even though it has a sound generator, then something to also consider is the Kawai MP11SE which has a sound generator but no speakers. It has a noticeably lighter keyboard action than the Kawai VPC1, and also the action feels more authentic to me.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842182
04/25/19 05:11 AM
04/25/19 05:11 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 931
Finland
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clothearednincompo Offline
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Finland
Originally Posted by BigIslandGuy
[...] a good keyboard with the full complement of MIDI outputs, such as after touch etc.


Your Yamaha Arius has no after touch.

I don't think Pianoteq supports after touch in any way. (And I can't think what that way would even be.)

So is after touch really a requirement?

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2842188
04/25/19 05:32 AM
04/25/19 05:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,491
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
Tyrone Slothrop  Offline

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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,491
Originally Posted by clothearednincompo
I don't think Pianoteq supports after touch in any way. (And I can't think what that way would even be.)

Where did you get this information? Pianoteq's website says it supports polyphonic aftertouch which is especially necessary for clavichords.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2842196
04/25/19 06:10 AM
04/25/19 06:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 931
Finland
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clothearednincompo Offline
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Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 931
Finland
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Where did you get this information?


Off the top of my head. laugh

Alright, it's used for clavihords then. Makes sense, actually.

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842201
04/25/19 06:19 AM
04/25/19 06:19 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,930
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Raleigh, North Carolina
Acoiustic pianos have no aftertouch ... not in the sense of the word as it's used in electronic instruments. Anyway, digital pianos generally don't support aftertouch. (Does yours?)

In the world of acoustic pianos the term aftertouch means something entirely different.

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: MacMacMac] #2842202
04/25/19 06:24 AM
04/25/19 06:24 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,491
Tyrone Slothrop Offline
Tyrone Slothrop  Offline

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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,491
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
digital pianos generally don't support aftertouch. (Does yours?)

You are probably right. But I believe one that does support aftertouch is the Yamaha Avantgrand - at least I've seen mention of this on this forum for the N1X.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842204
04/25/19 06:36 AM
04/25/19 06:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,930
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Raleigh, North Carolina
There are techno-keyboards that support aftertouch. But those have no pretense of emulating acoustic pianos.
Indeed, the aftertouch is a means to control VIs that support aftertouch ... such as purely synthetic instruments, or electronic versions of instruments that need an element of control beyond note-on/note-off, like a violin.

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2842207
04/25/19 06:43 AM
04/25/19 06:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,391
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Doug M.  Offline
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Posts: 1,391
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
digital pianos generally don't support aftertouch. (Does yours?)

You are probably right. But I believe one that does support aftertouch is the Yamaha Avantgrand - at least I've seen mention of this on this forum for the N1X.


Is that aftertouch for the pianos though, or for some other sample?
Many of the samples that evolved out of AWM use aftertouch.


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2842221
04/25/19 07:34 AM
04/25/19 07:34 AM
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Germany
JoBert Offline
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JoBert  Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
digital pianos generally don't support aftertouch. (Does yours?)

You are probably right. But I believe one that does support aftertouch is the Yamaha Avantgrand - at least I've seen mention of this on this forum for the N1X.

No, this is a misunderstanding. The AvantGrands don't have aftertouch either - not as this term is used for electronic keyboards (Wikipedia: "Aftertouch, or pressure sensitivity - the amount of pressure on a key, once already held down").

What the AvantGrands do is, that they re-purpose the aftertouch MIDI message (since it is not used for it's original purpose of pressure sensing) to send information about the key release. But this is a proprietary solution and has nothing to do with actual aftertouch.

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842224
04/25/19 07:42 AM
04/25/19 07:42 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,870
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Online content
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CyberGene  Online Content
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Sofia, Bulgaria
JoBert beat me to it.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: RyanThePianist] #2842234
04/25/19 08:21 AM
04/25/19 08:21 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
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Bobby Simons Offline
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Originally Posted by RyanThePianist
Just purchased a Yamaha P-515 today. It was about $1800 with all the stands, pedals, and such...

Great minds think alike - so did I.

Although I was unable to play one first, I have played the action in other instruments. It was down to choosing between this and the Kawai ES8, which I did get to play and really liked. (Honestly I would have been be happy with either.) I guess I am generally a Yamaha action guy, I still play my 35 yr. old KX88 controller every day, and will probably continue to do so.
Anyway, the furniture stand is backordered until late June but I negotiated a nice stand to hold me over that I can keep. I briefly considered the white version bundle, which is in stock, but my wife didn't like the look. Since she gave me no grief about buying another keyboard (with 8 or 9 already set up in the basement), I acquiesced. Happy wife, happy life.

According to UPS tracking, it may be here (Long Island) by tomorrow (Friday)! That seems improbable - but I am stoked.

Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: JoBert] #2842242
04/25/19 08:42 AM
04/25/19 08:42 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 16,940
Boynton Beach, FL
Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
digital pianos generally don't support aftertouch. (Does yours?)

You are probably right. But I believe one that does support aftertouch is the Yamaha Avantgrand - at least I've seen mention of this on this forum for the N1X.

No, this is a misunderstanding. The AvantGrands don't have aftertouch either - not as this term is used for electronic keyboards (Wikipedia: "Aftertouch, or pressure sensitivity - the amount of pressure on a key, once already held down").

What the AvantGrands do is, that they re-purpose the aftertouch MIDI message (since it is not used for it's original purpose of pressure sensing) to send information about the key release. But this is a proprietary solution and has nothing to do with actual aftertouch.

So then I guess the question is: which aftertouch did the OP want? My mind immediately went to the definition of pressure after the key has been pressed, used mainly in synth-type sounds since the OP was talking about a MIDI controller.

But I'm also confused by the OP's request for something to practice piano on after hours, but then requesting a controller only. Most controllers do not have piano actions, but synth actions to accommodate non-piano sounds.

I own a controller that has no sounds and it has a synth action - the Nektar Impact LX88, but for silent practice on piano, I use the Kawai MP11. The MP11 works great as a controller, but since it is a piano action, it's not the best to play string sounds or organ. If you're looking for a piano-only controller (with no pitch bend or mod wheel) then the Kawai VPC1 is perfect for that.


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Re: Most 'authentic' weighted action in a DP? [Re: BigIslandGuy] #2842247
04/25/19 09:07 AM
04/25/19 09:07 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 28
Bobby Simons Offline
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Your LX88 may be semi-weighted, but there are plenty of 88 key controllers with piano actions. . . the Kawai VPC-1, Studiologic SL88 Grand, Studiologic SL88 Stage, NI Komplete Kontrol S88, Arturia KeyLab 88, Akai MPK Road 88, the very affordable M-Audio Hammer 88, etc., etc.

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