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Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? #2841827
04/24/19 02:55 AM
04/24/19 02:55 AM
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thomscot Offline OP
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Hello,

I have been thinking about this for a month now, and I'd like to get some opinions.

I want to buy a new digital piano (an acoustic is not an option because of apartment/noise rules). I have tried a few in a store. In the beginning I was thinking of the NU1X, but then I noticed that flaw (the notes playing louder) and after researching online and discovering that that's actually a known issue I gave it up. For that much money, that's not a flaw I could accept. Besides, I decided I preferred a grand piano action anyway.

So I moved to trying the N1X. I liked the action, but wasn't convinced about the sound. Maybe it's the speakers being on top and playing at a mid-low volume. Then I tried N2, and I liked it better. Both the feeling of the keys and the sound.
The N3 is not an option, for budget and size anyway.

The point is, doing some research I found out that indeed the N2 has been in the line for like ... 10 years or so? They already X-ed the N1 and N3, so it's reasonable that is only a matter of time before they upgrade the N2.

So my question is, does it make sense to buy an N2 now? Retail price here in Japan (I live in Tokyo) is around 1 million yen (about 9k USD). I'm considering though maybe something used. I found a couple of options that look good and are about 7k, if they are still available.

I'm puzzled. I think that if I like it and feel good about it I should just get it, and if N2X is released tomorrow, whatever. I have been playing on a shitty piece of plastic for too long now. But I'd like some opinions.

Also, it would be nice to hear some impressions of comparisons between N1X and N2. I could not find many threads with that specific comparison, but maybe I just didn't look well enough.

Thank you!

PS. A little background: I'm a classically-trained pianist, not a professional, but I have been playing since I was little. Back home I have an acoustic upright but when I moved abroad, for budget and apartment rules etc, I just bought a mid-lower end digital piano. Decent enough to play but a whole different level from the avant grand series. Finally I got some money and I want to do a serious upgrade.

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Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: thomscot] #2841830
04/24/19 03:11 AM
04/24/19 03:11 AM
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Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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If you will be playing through speakers and you liked the N2, there’s nothing wrong. The most important thing when choosing a piano is what you feel is best to you. The N1X has great binaural sample for playing through headphones. Also there’s more advanced resonance modeling whereas in N2 there are only sampled resonances. If you didn’t feel any difference, it doesn’t matter. The N1X has Bluetooth, can save WAV files on a thumb drive and can transmit/receive audio through its USB interface. N2 has tactile vibration in the keys though, which supposedly adds realism when playing through headphones but some people seem to find it rather gimmicky. N2 also has ivorite surfaces whereas N1X has acrylic. That’s a rather arguable feature since some of the most expensive grands still use acrylic key surfaces.

Last edited by CyberGene; 04/24/19 03:16 AM.

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Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: thomscot] #2841832
04/24/19 03:15 AM
04/24/19 03:15 AM
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If you use speakers most of the time, get an N2. N2 plays very well out of the box using the internal speakers. It gives a better experience as a package.

If you use the headphone most of the time, get an N1X.

If you are into the VST kind of stuff, N1X might also be a better option. The audio interface helps line in external sounds into the speaker.

N2 has the Ivorite key top and TRS. I own an N3 for a year and I do like both of them. I think they add to the whole experience. But it’s just me.

Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: CyberGene] #2841838
04/24/19 03:42 AM
04/24/19 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
If you will be playing through speakers and you liked the N2, there’s nothing wrong. The most important thing when choosing a piano is what you feel is best to you. The N1X has great binaural sample for playing through headphones. Also there’s more advanced resonance modeling whereas in N2 there are only sampled resonances. If you didn’t feel any difference, it doesn’t matter. The N1X has Bluetooth, can save WAV files on a thumb drive and can transmit/receive audio through its USB interface.


I think I would play it mostly through the speakers yes. However, the connectivity thing is another point I forgot to mention in my original post. I do not do that much recording, but sometimes I do. Could you tell me more about the connectivity of the N2? It's just midi? I mean, besides the obvious convenience of a USB connection over having to plug your computer through a cable, anything else on N2 connectivity's vs N1X's?

Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: thomscot] #2841839
04/24/19 03:52 AM
04/24/19 03:52 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hello thomscot, welcome to the forum.

I would be inclined to go for the N2, especially if you are able to find a good second hand instrument.

Regarding connectivity, the more modern NU1X and N1X models feature a built-in USB audio interface. This allows the instrument to be connected to a computer (or even an iPad) to send/receive both MIDI *and* digital audio. The latter is significant in that it's now possible to capture the NU1/N1X's sound on the computer digitally, or for sounds generated by a computer to be played through the instrument's speaker system.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: Kawai James] #2841840
04/24/19 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello thomscot, welcome to the forum.

This allows the instrument to be connected to a computer (or even an iPad) to send/receive both MIDI *and* digital audio. The latter is significant in that it's now possible to capture the NU1/N1X's sound on the computer digitally, or for sounds generated by a computer to be played through the instrument's speaker system.

x


Hello James, thanks for the reply.

Forgive my ignorance, but can you be more specific in what is that the N2 *cannot* do, if plugged to a computer using a cable? You cannot capture the digital audio from the piano on the computer? And what does this exactly mean?

I think mostly I'd be interested in being able to record piano parts (I mean with the native sound of the N2 of course) and play around with those with some software etc.

Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: thomscot] #2841842
04/24/19 04:13 AM
04/24/19 04:13 AM
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hello thomscot,

Originally Posted by thomscot
Forgive my ignorance, but can you be more specific in what is that the N2 *cannot* do, if plugged to a computer using a cable? You cannot capture the digital audio from the piano on the computer? And what does this exactly mean?


The N2 lacks a USB to Host connector, so it's not possible to connect the instrument directly to a computer. This can be overcome using a relatively inexpensive USB to MIDI IN/OUT adaptor, however this will only transfer MIDI data. In order to record audio from the N2 into a computer, or play the computer's sound through the N2's speakers, you will need to use the instrument's Line IN/OUT connectors. The N2 does feature a USB to Device connector, however I believe this is only capable of recording and playing back MIDI data, not audio.

Originally Posted by thomscot
I think mostly I'd be interested in being able to record piano parts (I mean with the native sound of the N2 of course) and play around with those with some software etc.


Yes, this should still be possible with the N2, however it will require a few additional cables, whereas on the NU1X/N1X everything is handled digitally by a single USB cable. The N2's native sound is pretty good, however you may find that using software instruments running on the computer may yield a higher quality/more realistic sound.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: thomscot] #2841843
04/24/19 04:17 AM
04/24/19 04:17 AM
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If we are talking about buying a new (non-used) unit, for me it would depend on if I were planning to use the built-in sound engine or were planning to use it only as a MIDI-controller for VSTs. For the latter purpose, it would obviously be fine, but personally I wouldn't get a new N2 with its 10+ years old engine if I wanted to play mainly with that internal engine.
For a used N2, the picture may be different, if I could get a good deal.

And seeing that the N1X hasn't even arrived in all stores yet, I doubt that the N2X will be released "tomorrow".

Also, I hope this is OK as a plug here, but are you aware of the Kawai Novus NV10? This piano also has a true acoustic action (even with damper weights, which the Yamahas lack). Price wise it should be comparable to a new N2.

Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: JoBert] #2841846
04/24/19 04:32 AM
04/24/19 04:32 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by JoBert
And seeing that the N1X hasn't even arrived in all stores yet, I doubt that the N2X will be released "tomorrow".

And it's taking its sweet time! mad


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: thomscot] #2841847
04/24/19 04:42 AM
04/24/19 04:42 AM
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Originally Posted by thomscot
I think mostly I'd be interested in being able to record piano parts (I mean with the native sound of the N2 of course) and play around with those with some software etc.

To record your performance as audio from a N2, the only way is to use an audio cable from the instrument aux out jacks into a computer or audio recorder. While that will certainly work and will yield relatively good results, it's nevertheless an analog audio connection and will introduce noise. On the NU1X and N1X you can record digitally in two ways: either plugging in a USB thumb drive and recording straight in WAV format (uncompressed audio) or through the USB cable to a computer. In both ways the recorded audio is digitally transmitted hence no noise is introduced and there's no redundant DAC -> ADC conversion. For instance I recorded my audio clips in my YouTube channel on a USB thumb drive. Note that while N2 would also allow for you to plug a thumb drive and record your performances on it, only MIDI is supported, so you won't be able to listen to your performance on another device since MIDI only contains data about what keys you pressed, etc. but there's no audio. The MIDI file can be replayed back on the N2 for you to listen through its speakers, or can be played back on a computer using software pianos but there's no guarantee it will sound any good since the velocity mapping and piano behavior at all might be different and you as a pianist aurally adapt instantaneously to what you hear on the N2 while playing it and that would be different if you would have played another piano.

Also, some people prefer using software pianos. They control them through MIDI and then route back the audio to the piano so that the sound is coming over the piano speakers. In the case of N2 you will have to use again only analog audio cable, however there's noise floor on the N2 that won't allow analog audio that's bellow certain threshold level and that makes it almost unusable for that purpose because the tails of notes will be cut off. In later models they allowed for this to be switched off, however not on the N2. Even better, on the N1X you can transmit audio digitally from the software to the piano through USB without any noise or noise floor cut off.

Last edited by CyberGene; 04/24/19 04:44 AM.

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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: CyberGene] #2841852
04/24/19 05:07 AM
04/24/19 05:07 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
In the case of N2 you will have to use again only analog audio cable, however there's noise floor on the N2 that won't allow analog audio that's bellow certain threshold level and that makes it almost unusable for that purpose because the tails of notes will be cut off. In later models they allowed for this to be switched off, however not on the N2.

Wow! Great info. That belongs on a FAQ!


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2841859
04/24/19 05:57 AM
04/24/19 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
In the case of N2 you will have to use again only analog audio cable, however there's noise floor on the N2 that won't allow analog audio that's bellow certain threshold level and that makes it almost unusable for that purpose because the tails of notes will be cut off. In later models they allowed for this to be switched off, however not on the N2.

Wow! Great info. That belongs on a FAQ!

I believe it's been a common knowledge across the digital piano forum but on the other hand we live in a balloon here, knowing everything (how modest!) and forgetting that new members might be entirely unaware of these things and even old members are not mandated to read every thread over here smile (I recently proved that by creating a thread about new Roland pianos because I missed the same thread create a few days earlier... sigh)


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: thomscot] #2841885
04/24/19 07:45 AM
04/24/19 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by thomscot
Hello,

So I moved to trying the N1X. I liked the action, but wasn't convinced about the sound. Maybe it's the speakers being on top and playing at a mid-low volume. Then I tried N2, and I liked it better. Both the feeling of the keys and the sound.
The N3 is not an option, for budget and size anyway.



I think you answered it right there. I have an N2, but have not yet had a chance to try an N1X and compare. I really like the action and the sound as well, even though it's an older sound engine. I'll sometimes blend it with Pianoteq.

I don't have the noise gate issue on my N2, where an incoming signal will get cut off when it's below a certain threshold. Or at least I've never been able to produce it.

One issue with an N2 is the pedal bloom effect, where the sound is slightly increased when applying the pedal. However, you really have to listen for it. Any other person, or someone listening to a recording of the playing, will probably never notice.


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Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: Kawai James] #2842076
04/24/19 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James


The N2 lacks a USB to Host connector, so it's not possible to connect the instrument directly to a computer. This can be overcome using a relatively inexpensive USB to MIDI IN/OUT adaptor, however this will only transfer MIDI data. In order to record audio from the N2 into a computer, or play the computer's sound through the N2's speakers, you will need to use the instrument's Line IN/OUT connectors. The N2 does feature a USB to Device connector, however I believe this is only capable of recording and playing back MIDI data, not audio.



Thanks for the info. By the way, I see you're in Japan? Do you have any recommendation where to go and try some pianos? I usually go to a store in Ginza just because is nearby my office. I know about Ochanomizu but I mostly go there to check guitars. For pianos I never found much (maybe I just don't know about it).

Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: JoBert] #2842087
04/24/19 08:47 PM
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Everyone, thanks a lot for the answers and info. I didn't expect so many so fast! Thanks.

Originally Posted by JoBert
are of the Kawai Novus NV10? This piano also has a true acoustic action (even with damper weights, which the Yamahas lack). Price wise it should be comparable to a new N2.


Yes that came up in my research, but I never tried one. I'd be curious to do that of course. Somehow I'm fond of Yamaha (for digital only) but well, if the Kawai better fits my taste so be it. Maybe Kawai James (not sure how to tag users, or if at all possible) could suggest where to go in Tokyo to try one out.

Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: thomscot] #2842100
04/24/19 09:29 PM
04/24/19 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by thomscot
Thanks for the info. By the way, I see you're in Japan? Do you have any recommendation where to go and try some pianos? I usually go to a store in Ginza just because is nearby my office. I know about Ochanomizu but I mostly go there to check guitars. For pianos I never found much (maybe I just don't know about it).


Yes, I’m based in Japan, although it has been a while since I lived in Tokyo. Ochanomizu is great for guitars and band instruments such as stage pianos, however perhaps less so for pianos.

Kawai has a large store along Omotesando which should have the NV10 available to play-test.
Here is an access map:
http://shop.kawai.jp/omotesando/access/index.html

On the occasions that I have visited the store, I usually walked down the hill from Harajuku station, however if you’re coming from Ginza, I expect you can take the metro there in 15 minutes or so.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: Kawai James] #2842109
04/24/19 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

Kawai has a large store along Omotesando which should have the NV10 available to play-test.
Here is an access map:
http://shop.kawai.jp/omotesando/access/index.html


Thanks. Actually shortly after my post I just remembered that a few years ago I visited exactly that store in Omotesando. I guess I will go have another look. Thanks again.

Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: thomscot] #2842113
04/24/19 10:41 PM
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No problem, happy to help.

I hope you enjoy your visit.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: thomscot] #2842120
04/24/19 11:11 PM
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I think you're in for a treat with the NV10. Very pleased with the onboard speaker sound myself.

Binaural sound on the Yamahas is mind blowing and a game changer, but I'm allergic to headphones and much prefer playing on speakers at low volume instead.

Re: Would you buy a Yamaha N2 today? [Re: navindra] #2842172
04/25/19 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by navindra
I'm allergic to headphones and much prefer playing on speakers at low volume instead.


I feel pretty much the same way. BUT, I have yet to try that binaural thing.

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