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What to say when playing F major contrary? #2841190
04/21/19 11:58 AM
04/21/19 11:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 853
Sweden
Animisha Offline OP
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Animisha  Offline OP
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I have recently learned to play the scales of C, G, D and A major in both parallel and contrary motion, and I love playing them with my eyes closed.
When playing in parallel motion, to guide myself, I silently say the name of the notes - which in my case is easy, because I say them in Dutch, so instead of F-sharp or C-sharp, I say fis and cis: D E fis G A B cis etc
When playing in contrary motion, to guide myself, I silently say the number of the finger that plays: 1 2 3 1 2 3 4 etc.

But now I have started on F major. Parallel motion is easy enough; B-flat is bes in Dutch.
But what to say to myself when I play in contrary motion? It starts well enoug: 1 2 3, but how do I move on from there without getting confused?

Has anybody dealt with the same problem and what was your solution?


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
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Re: What to say when playing F major contrary? [Re: Animisha] #2841191
04/21/19 12:08 PM
04/21/19 12:08 PM
Joined: May 2001
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Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Animisha:

As a learner, I never learned nor tried to say the notes that I was playing nor the number of the fingers that played those notes. It seems to me that that is a process that involves an extra step and thus slows down the learning curve. As you've already seen, you are going to run into a problem when each hand is playing a different note with a different finger. Why do you need to say the notes or finger numbers when you play?

I would simply make sure that I can play with total security each hand (right ascending, left descending) automatically, even for only one octave, hands separately, then, slowly put them together. Then do the reverse, right descending, left ascending). Once you have done one octave and can feel comfortable with that, then expand to more octaves.

Regards,


BruceD
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Estonia 190
Re: What to say when playing F major contrary? [Re: BruceD] #2841206
04/21/19 01:01 PM
04/21/19 01:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 853
Sweden
Animisha Offline OP
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Animisha  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Animisha:

I would simply make sure that I can play with total security each hand (right ascending, left descending) automatically, even for only one octave, hands separately, then, slowly put them together. Then do the reverse, right descending, left ascending). Once you have done one octave and can feel comfortable with that, then expand to more octaves.

Regards,


Thank you Bruce!
That works well enough with eyes open. cool
However, with my eyes closed I need some mnemonic (or attention device?), to prevent my mind from floating and all of a sudden finding my index finger on the tonic... whistle


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: What to say when playing F major contrary? [Re: Animisha] #2841207
04/21/19 01:04 PM
04/21/19 01:04 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 74
Left Coast of US
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I can see the value of saying the note names it adds ear training aspect to your technique exercice. Helps with building that brain, ear, hand relationship. I don't see the value in naming fingers because fingerings changes with situations.

Re: What to say when playing F major contrary? [Re: Animisha] #2841212
04/21/19 01:13 PM
04/21/19 01:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,102
Boynton Beach, FL
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Morodiene Offline
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by BruceD
Animisha:

I would simply make sure that I can play with total security each hand (right ascending, left descending) automatically, even for only one octave, hands separately, then, slowly put them together. Then do the reverse, right descending, left ascending). Once you have done one octave and can feel comfortable with that, then expand to more octaves.

Regards,


Thank you Bruce!
That works well enough with eyes open. cool
However, with my eyes closed I need some mnemonic (or attention device?), to prevent my mind from floating and all of a sudden finding my index finger on the tonic... whistle

Why is it important for you to do this with your eyes closed? I'm not sure there's value in this, especially for a beginner.

I agree with BruceD's comment about too much info with thinking note names or finger #s for each note. Instead, I think finger #s for only when there's a crossing over/under part.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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Re: What to say when playing F major contrary? [Re: Morodiene] #2841214
04/21/19 01:16 PM
04/21/19 01:16 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,073
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by BruceD
Animisha:

I would simply make sure that I can play with total security each hand (right ascending, left descending) automatically, even for only one octave, hands separately, then, slowly put them together. Then do the reverse, right descending, left ascending). Once you have done one octave and can feel comfortable with that, then expand to more octaves.

Regards,


Thank you Bruce!
That works well enough with eyes open. cool
However, with my eyes closed I need some mnemonic (or attention device?), to prevent my mind from floating and all of a sudden finding my index finger on the tonic... whistle

Why is it important for you to do this with your eyes closed? I'm not sure there's value in this, especially for a beginner.

I agree with BruceD's comment about too much info with thinking note names or finger #s for each note. Instead, I think finger #s for only when there's a crossing over/under part.


I think it also helps to concentrate on where the thumb in each hand falls, even though it often is a different note in each hand; but that's often the signpost which the other fingers follow.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: What to say when playing F major contrary? [Re: Morodiene] #2841227
04/21/19 01:48 PM
04/21/19 01:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 853
Sweden
Animisha Offline OP
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Animisha  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Morodiene
Why is it important for you to do this with your eyes closed? I'm not sure there's value in this, especially for a beginner.

I just love doing it so much. Maybe there is no pianistic value in this, but just to sit there, eyes closed, listening to the string of pearls that emanates from my piano, it is heavenly.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: What to say when playing F major contrary? [Re: Animisha] #2841229
04/21/19 01:53 PM
04/21/19 01:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,536
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malkin Offline
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by BruceD
Animisha:

I would simply make sure that I can play with total security each hand (right ascending, left descending) automatically, even for only one octave, hands separately, then, slowly put them together. Then do the reverse, right descending, left ascending). Once you have done one octave and can feel comfortable with that, then expand to more octaves.

Regards,


Thank you Bruce!
That works well enough with eyes open. cool
However, with my eyes closed I need some mnemonic (or attention device?), to prevent my mind from floating and all of a sudden finding my index finger on the tonic... whistle


Keep doing it eyes open with a quiet mind.


Learner
Re: What to say when playing F major contrary? [Re: BruceD] #2841237
04/21/19 02:43 PM
04/21/19 02:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,315
Georgia, USA
Sam S Offline

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Georgia, USA
Originally Posted by BruceD
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by BruceD
Animisha:

I would simply make sure that I can play with total security each hand (right ascending, left descending) automatically, even for only one octave, hands separately, then, slowly put them together. Then do the reverse, right descending, left ascending). Once you have done one octave and can feel comfortable with that, then expand to more octaves.

Regards,


Thank you Bruce!
That works well enough with eyes open. cool
However, with my eyes closed I need some mnemonic (or attention device?), to prevent my mind from floating and all of a sudden finding my index finger on the tonic... whistle

Why is it important for you to do this with your eyes closed? I'm not sure there's value in this, especially for a beginner.

I agree with BruceD's comment about too much info with thinking note names or finger #s for each note. Instead, I think finger #s for only when there's a crossing over/under part.


I think it also helps to concentrate on where the thumb in each hand falls, even though it often is a different note in each hand; but that's often the signpost which the other fingers follow.

Regards,


In the flat keys I concentrate on 3 and 4 - if I get those wrong I'm screwed. The flat keys are harder to do in contrary motion, in my opinion - except for Eb, which is easy.

Sam

Re: What to say when playing F major contrary? [Re: Animisha] #2841278
04/21/19 07:03 PM
04/21/19 07:03 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,073
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted by Sam S

In the flat keys I concentrate on 3 and 4 - if I get those wrong I'm screwed. The flat keys are harder to do in contrary motion, in my opinion - except for Eb, which is easy.

Sam


Sam:

This is a good point. I think, in the flat keys, that it may be more important to concentrate on where 3 and 4 fall than on where the thumb falls. I haven't done contrary scales in a while (What?!?), but trying them out, I'm inclined to agree that 3 and 4 are the key - pun intended! smile

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: What to say when playing F major contrary? [Re: Animisha] #2841280
04/21/19 07:06 PM
04/21/19 07:06 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 23,073
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Why is it important for you to do this with your eyes closed? I'm not sure there's value in this, especially for a beginner.

I just love doing it so much. Maybe there is no pianistic value in this, but just to sit there, eyes closed, listening to the string of pearls that emanates from my piano, it is heavenly.



If that's your preference - although I don't see any advantage to it unless you're planning a practice session when the lights go out! - you can certainly do it. If you do it slowly enough to start with, I think that closing your eyes may help you concentrate, not on your "string of pearls" but, rather, on where certain fingers must fall.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: What to say when playing F major contrary? [Re: Animisha] #2841294
04/21/19 08:52 PM
04/21/19 08:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,102
Boynton Beach, FL
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Morodiene Offline
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Boynton Beach, FL
Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by Morodiene
Why is it important for you to do this with your eyes closed? I'm not sure there's value in this, especially for a beginner.

I just love doing it so much. Maybe there is no pianistic value in this, but just to sit there, eyes closed, listening to the string of pearls that emanates from my piano, it is heavenly.


I think that will come in time - once you can visualize the keys you are playing, or rather, the hand shape that you should have for each segment of a scale (black or white keys). Taking F major contrary, for example, you have 3 white keys descending in the LH in the first "segment" or hand position, and then the RH has four keys: 3 white and 1 black in its first segment. Then the next segment of the LH would be 1-2-3-4-5, white-black-white-white-white, and the RH would be 4 white keys in a row. The segments or hand positions do not line up with each other, so you would "shift" (cross under) to the next segment in the LH first on the 4th note, and then shift your attention to the RH segment on note 5.

For me, it's more tactile than thinking finger #s or note names. But first, you should learn to do it without worrying about not looking, then it will naturally transition to not looking when ti's easy.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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