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Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2839564 04/15/19 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
There must be something Im missing.....because I don't think it should sound like this. I was expecting and hoping that it might even sound better than the sound from my Yamaha.....but as for right now, I would probably rate the sound from the Yamaha as 8/10, and the sound Im getting from Pianoteq 3/10


Welcome to the world of software piano sounds.

Usually accompanied by large quantities of accolades from recent users and/or manufacturers.

Usually followed by disillusioned new users asking for guidance.

Followed by large amounts of "Try this" and/or "Buy this".

Followed by dissatisfaction by user.

Follow by hopeful purchase of next one … etc …

Unfortunately, that is the usual scenario that I and others have experience.

If you like your digital piano sound as 8/10 it might best to go with it.

Good Luck


Don

Casio PX-S1000, Focal Professional CMS 40 near-field monitors, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs (Seldom Used), Focus Rite Scarlett 2i2 Audio Interface, Yamaha MG06 Mixer
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2839573 04/15/19 03:40 PM
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Trouble is, Pianoteq sounds rather too much like an acoustic. OK, so all the rattles and complexities might not be there; maybe it's more of a half way house, but if you compare your - or any- Yamaha or other DP with an acoustic, you'll realise they have been synthesised by refinement. Rather like white bread. Might taste good, but your system misses the roughage.
But maybe you don't particularly like the sound or feel of an acoustic? Not everybody does. All I know is I can sit down at one and play it with no issues any more.
Doesn't mean to say I want one. . . .
Maybe you just need more time to acclimatise to software stuff.


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Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2839597 04/15/19 04:36 PM
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Well the sampled pianos you tried are not considered a good example to tip your toes into the piano libraries world as there are vastly better options out there. For example, Garageband's acoustic piano sounds horrible to be honest with you.

I would suggest trying something like the Ravenscroft 275 for example. But you can't just stop there, it's only the beginning:

- First you need to make sure the velocity curve is right with your controller. Don't stress it too much, basically just do a curved ramp and play the same note around the C2 range from very soft to very loud and watch what velocity reading you're getting (Ravenscroft allows you to see it). Make sure you're hitting all the spectrum. It doesn't have to be perfect, basically, make sure you can easily reach velocities 1-5 and NOT SO EASILY reach velocity 127. That's how you know you got it right.

- Get a headphones/monitors calibration software that flattens the frequency response to your headphones/monitors, so you don't get "lied" to when listening/playing.

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
CyberGene #2839616 04/15/19 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
This post has been reported by thickfingers as militant hate speech and has been censored by the moderators. User CyberGene has been warned.

I knew you couldn't resist that opening Tyrone provided. laugh

@OP: Maybe the VSTi don't sound right because the velocity curve is off.
Either that or it is your hands, being used to a more simple, more forgiving digital.
As a test you could try to feed it some midi files and experiment with the settings.

Also ATH-M50... not the most natural sounding headphone (I own a pair myself) try to use them on both, your CSP and your VSTi, so you can pinpoint if it's a Headphone/speaker issue.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
MacMacMac #2839660 04/15/19 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I've never heard Garage Band or NI Complete or Pro Tools.
But I can agree that Pianoteq sounds bad and Addictive Keys, too.
I don't use any of those.

But don't let that bad sampling ruin your perception of virtual piano software. There are many excellent ones.

I mostly use Galaxy Vintage D and The Grandeur ... and occasionally the Vienna Grand and The Giant.
These all run inside the Kontakt software. (The Kontakt Player software is free.)
All are better by far than my Yamaha ... and even more better with the new monitors I bought.

I suggest you try one of those ... or any of the many that are discussed here often. Perhaps ...
- Ravenscroft
- American D (if you like the Steinway sound)
- Noire (a brand new one ... see the recent posts here on the board)
- Garritan Steinway (if you like the Steinway sound)
- Garritan CFX (if you like the Yamaha sound)


Native Instruments Komplete comes in 4 versions, none of them are free, the select version is included with Native Instruments hardware.

Basically the Komplete series is a cheap way of buying NI products, well cheap compared to buying each one individually.

For example, the select version contains 14 Instruments and effects, Kontakt player, Reaktor player etc and also contains The Gentleman piano.

Whereas Komplete 12 (current version) contains 52 Instruments and effects, the full version of Kontakt, the full version of Reaktor and also has these Pianos. Una Corda, The Grandeur, The Maverick, The Gentleman and The Giant. Plus a ton of other effects, synths etc.

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2839676 04/15/19 08:06 PM
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I found for myself that using Pianoteq with speakers requires turning off its reverb effect (manually) on all presets. Otherwise, it will feel like the piano is 10m away played by someone else.
Even on headphone, some presets, e.g. "Recording" presets, have too much reverb for playing purpose.

I don't think people could expect Pianoteq to sound best comparing to other sampling VST. I still think the ancient Galaxy pianos sound better.

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Frédéric L #2840358 04/18/19 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
if you want to compare with a sampled piano without purchasing it, you can go to try-sound.com and try Galaxy Vintage D, Ivory and VSL Vienna Imperial pianos. The latency is huge and then it is difficult to play, but you can hear yourself playing and know if the timbre of the pianos worth its costs.


I went to sound.com, and that just seems to be some kind of search engine?

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
siros #2840361 04/18/19 05:53 AM
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@Gimbal: it's TRY-SOUND.COM

Originally Posted by siros
I found for myself that using Pianoteq with speakers requires turning off its reverb effect (manually) on all presets. Otherwise, it will feel like the piano is 10m away played by someone else.
@siros: I don't know what you've done to eliminate that problem. Pianoteq always sounded like the sound was coming from in another room. Twiddling knobs never fixed it for me. What twiddles worked for you?

Originally Posted by siros
I still think the ancient Galaxy pianos sound better.
Agreed. Vintage D gets no notice around here anymore, but it's by far the best. Yes, it has pedal shortcomings. But the sound! It's a beauty.

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2840363 04/18/19 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by RobR
Well the sampled pianos you tried are not considered a good example to tip your toes into the piano libraries world as there are vastly better options out there. For example, Garageband's acoustic piano sounds horrible to be honest with you.

I would suggest trying something like the Ravenscroft 275 for example. But you can't just stop there, it's only the beginning:

- First you need to make sure the velocity curve is right with your controller. Don't stress it too much, basically just do a curved ramp and play the same note around the C2 range from very soft to very loud and watch what velocity reading you're getting (Ravenscroft allows you to see it). Make sure you're hitting all the spectrum. It doesn't have to be perfect, basically, make sure you can easily reach velocities 1-5 and NOT SO EASILY reach velocity 127. That's how you know you got it right.

- Get a headphones/monitors calibration software that flattens the frequency response to your headphones/monitors, so you don't get "lied" to when listening/playing.



I found a program, and this was the result. I had a hard time getting some of the lower ones, and the highest one at 127 I made by misstake with my computer keyboard.

[img]http://forumbilder.se/I53GJ/ska-rmavbild-2019-04-17-kl-11-10-01.png?width=150[/img]

I don't know if this is good or bad. But I don't see what this has to do with the bad sound. Sure....it's important to be able to play both soft and loud and everything in between. But the fact that it sounds like Im playing on a cheep toy keyboard, shouldn't have anything to do with this.....right?

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2840365 04/18/19 06:39 AM
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So I went to try-sound.com....I downloaded something called DAWconnect.....but I have no idea how to open it.....and it doesn't say anywhere. Just to open a DAWconnect session.....Hmmm oooookej..... :-/

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2840368 04/18/19 07:13 AM
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@Gimbal: What program is this? Does it run on Windows?
Originally Posted by Gimbal
I found a program, and this was the result. I had a hard time getting some of the lower ones, and the highest one at 127.
[Linked Image]

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
MacMacMac #2840376 04/18/19 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
@Gimbal: What program is this? Does it run on Windows?
Originally Posted by Gimbal
I found a program, and this was the result. I had a hard time getting some of the lower ones, and the highest one at 127.
[Linked Image]



VelocityChecker

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2840416 04/18/19 10:24 AM
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DAWconnect needs a VST host, typically a DAW like BandLab Cakewalk (this one is free).

But the SAVIhost free program can also be used (just put it where DAWconnect is installed, rename it as the DAWconnect DLL file, but with EXE... and launch it).

Last edited by Frédéric L; 04/18/19 10:24 AM.

Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Gimbal #2840420 04/18/19 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Gimbal
Before buying any software I wanted to try out some free stuff.....so I have so far tested out the following;
[...]
And they all sound pretty bad.....compared to the sound coming from my Yamaha, [...]

It's because your Yamaha digital piano is miles ahead of computer software. It was the case in the beginning of digital synthesizers, when these have been sold as add-in cards for computers, and it's the case in the current day and age, because specialized hardware always beats software synthesis.

In between there was a small period of time (during the last decade), when computer power exploded much faster than digital synthesizers could improve, which lead to some interesting brute force approaches. But the rise of computer power came to a grinding halt during the beginning of this decade and has gone backwards since Meltdown and Spectre, so synthesis hardware could catch up and the old order has been restored.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Frédéric L #2840421 04/18/19 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
DAWconnect needs a VST host, typically a DAW like BandLab Cakewalk (this one is free).

But the SAVIhost free program can also be used (just put it where DAWconnect is installed, rename it as the DAWconnect DLL file, but with EXE... and launch it).


Thank you for trying to help me, but I don't understand anything. I tried making it work with Pro Tools.....you should somehow load DAWconnect as an instrument? But I couldn't find it among the instruments/plugins...

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
MacMacMac #2840511 04/18/19 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac

Originally Posted by siros
I found for myself that using Pianoteq with speakers requires turning off its reverb effect (manually) on all presets. Otherwise, it will feel like the piano is 10m away played by someone else.
@siros: I don't know what you've done to eliminate that problem. Pianoteq always sounded like the sound was coming from in another room. Twiddling knobs never fixed it for me. What twiddles worked for you?


All Pianoteq piano presets have reverb set to favor the wet side, even the plain Prelude preset. I think they tend to go for "nice recorded sound" rather than "piano in front of you sound".

I use Sound Recording output and remove reverb from the effect chain on all presets I play. Just lowering mix or other settings doesn't work for me. Theoretically, it should be like the speakers are the dry sound sources with the actual room providing reverb.
Still it is not the best sound in the world, but at least it gives a sense that the piano is in front of me.

Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
JoeT #2840563 04/19/19 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Gimbal
Before buying any software I wanted to try out some free stuff.....so I have so far tested out the following;
[...]
And they all sound pretty bad.....compared to the sound coming from my Yamaha, [...]

It's because your Yamaha digital piano is miles ahead of computer software. It was the case in the beginning of digital synthesizers, when these have been sold as add-in cards for computers, and it's the case in the current day and age, because specialized hardware always beats software synthesis.

In between there was a small period of time (during the last decade), when computer power exploded much faster than digital synthesizers could improve, which lead to some interesting brute force approaches. But the rise of computer power came to a grinding halt during the beginning of this decade and has gone backwards since Meltdown and Spectre, so synthesis hardware could catch up and the old order has been restored.

Computers still laugh at the hardware of any digital piano in terms of raw processing power and programs like Garritan CFX trample all over looped samples, quality wise.

The difference in sound quality is far more likely to come from the fact that the unit is custom tailored to the samples used.
The software in the digital is custom tailored to the action and the speakers are custom tailored to the sound Yamaha wishes to achieve (that's also why VSTi through the DPs speakers often sound rather disappointing).

All in all you get one, well functioning, harmonious package and can just sit and play.

Not so with VSTi, here you need to do the configurations yourself and, esp in the touch curve department, there is a lot that can be done wrong.


The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Granyala #2840600 04/19/19 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Gimbal
Before buying any software I wanted to try out some free stuff.....so I have so far tested out the following;
[...]
And they all sound pretty bad.....compared to the sound coming from my Yamaha, [...]

It's because your Yamaha digital piano is miles ahead of computer software. It was the case in the beginning of digital synthesizers, when these have been sold as add-in cards for computers, and it's the case in the current day and age, because specialized hardware always beats software synthesis.

In between there was a small period of time (during the last decade), when computer power exploded much faster than digital synthesizers could improve, which lead to some interesting brute force approaches. But the rise of computer power came to a grinding halt during the beginning of this decade and has gone backwards since Meltdown and Spectre, so synthesis hardware could catch up and the old order has been restored.

Computers still laugh at the hardware of any digital piano in terms of raw processing power and programs like Garritan CFX trample all over looped samples, quality wise.

The difference in sound quality is far more likely to come from the fact that the unit is custom tailored to the samples used.
The software in the digital is custom tailored to the action and the speakers are custom tailored to the sound Yamaha wishes to achieve (that's also why VSTi through the DPs speakers often sound rather disappointing).

All in all you get one, well functioning, harmonious package and can just sit and play.

Not so with VSTi, here you need to do the configurations yourself and, esp in the touch curve department, there is a lot that can be done wrong.


Ergo VPC-1 with professional collaboration with certain VST programs regarding those touch curves may be be a solution.

Last edited by Jethro; 04/19/19 08:53 AM.

Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Jethro #2840631 04/19/19 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
Ergo VPC-1 with professional collaboration with certain VST programs regarding those touch curves may be be a solution.

It certainly was for me, b/c I don't need anything but a simple piano (rest could theoretically be done in a DAW).
I use the VPC-1 with the pianoteq curve that came with it and play .... pianoteq (standalone, no DAW host). laugh

If you can rent it, I'd say go for it. Might save you quite a bit of cash compared to the MP11-SE, which is a grand more here in Germany.

Just keep the little caveat in mind, that a computer with a VST is MANDATORY. No internal voices at all.

Last edited by Granyala; 04/19/19 10:41 AM.

The backbone of modern industrial society is, and for the foreseeable future will be, the use of electrical Power.
VPC 1 -> Pianoteq 6 Std | Garritan CFX / Pearl Alto Flute 201
Re: Can't get a good sound in any software instrument
Granyala #2840652 04/19/19 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Granyala
Originally Posted by Jethro
Ergo VPC-1 with professional collaboration with certain VST programs regarding those touch curves may be be a solution.

It certainly was for me, b/c I don't need anything but a simple piano (rest could theoretically be done in a DAW).
I use the VPC-1 with the pianoteq curve that came with it and play .... pianoteq (standalone, no DAW host). laugh

If you can rent it, I'd say go for it. Might save you quite a bit of cash compared to the MP11-SE, which is a grand more here in Germany.

Just keep the little caveat in mind, that a computer with a VST is MANDATORY. No internal voices at all.

Picking mine up tomorrow. Can't wait to get it all set up.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Preludio: Bach/Rachmaninoff E Major Sonata for Violin
Chopin: G Minor Ballade


Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
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