Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
77 registered members (AprilE, anamnesis, 36251, andrea monza, accordeur, 20 invisible), 1,427 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes [Re: Gesualdo] #2839211
04/14/19 07:31 PM
04/14/19 07:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,806
Oakland
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
BDB  Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,806
Oakland
I have had success lessening or eliminating such sounds by needling the hammers from the side under the strike point. The idea is to soften the center of the hammer felt so the hammer stays against the string long enough that the string is not excited in a higher mode. (Think of a jump rope that you whip around really fast so that the center stays close to motionless while the halves are arced: that is the second mode of the motion of the rope. The strings can do that, especially in the bass, because the vibration of the string is so slow.)


Semipro Tech
(ad 800)
PTG Journals
PTG Journal
Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes [Re: Gesualdo] #2839215
04/14/19 07:48 PM
04/14/19 07:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,659
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,659
New Hampshire
It is possible that a PitchLock string coupler will effectively mask the problem.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 04/14/19 07:48 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes [Re: Gesualdo] #2839221
04/14/19 08:10 PM
04/14/19 08:10 PM
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 537
Chernobieff Piano Online content
500 Post Club Member
Chernobieff Piano  Online Content
500 Post Club Member

Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 537
Interesting that you said that it didn't ring until the referred tech worked on it. You said he leveled strings and did some spot voicing and mentioned the high humidity. This made me think that the dampers were formed to the unleveled strings, and when he leveled them, not all strings of the note mute at the same time anymore. Leaving one to ring. Also, if he did any sanding on the hammers, maybe he un-mated them to the strings. Anyways, just my initial reaction.
-chris-

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 04/14/19 08:11 PM.

Chernobieff Piano Restorations
Lenoir City, Tennessee U.S.A
www.chernobieffpiano.com
grandpianoman@protonmail.com
Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes [Re: Gesualdo] #2839230
04/14/19 08:50 PM
04/14/19 08:50 PM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 505
Maine, USA
R
Rick_Parks Offline
500 Post Club Member
Rick_Parks  Offline
500 Post Club Member
R

Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 505
Maine, USA
My immediate thought went to the Baldwin I just dealt with last week. It was F2 on this one, a distinct C# (as with yours) was ringing out of the F2, due to the damper bleeding. So, I agree with Chris on this- it does sound like a damper killing the initial partials, but allowing the high to ring. Perhaps the damper may have gotten hard over time-or as Christ says, the tech may have tweaked things, and left the damper bleeding- perhaps not noticing?)...


Parks and Sons Piano Service
www.parksandsonspiano.com
Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes [Re: Gesualdo] #2839235
04/14/19 09:25 PM
04/14/19 09:25 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 252
Canada
L
LXXXVIIIdentes Offline
Full Member
LXXXVIIIdentes  Offline
Full Member
L

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 252
Canada
Thanks so much for these ideas. I will pass them on.

The tuner did leave her something to insert between strings ?? but she was finding no effect. I thought it was some felt?? I will ask if it was a Pitch Coupler, but I don't think so.

I found the PitchCoupler site, and sent her that. I am fairly sure the bass string is a wrapped single string, not a double.

Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes [Re: Gesualdo] #2839395
04/15/19 07:43 AM
04/15/19 07:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,659
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,659
New Hampshire
Agree with the above scenario. In addition, IF it had been quite a while since the PREVIOUS tuning on it, it may have required a pitch raise which could alter the specific positioning of the damper on the string, possibly exacerbating things.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes [Re: P W Grey] #2839463
04/15/19 10:38 AM
04/15/19 10:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 252
Canada
L
LXXXVIIIdentes Offline
Full Member
LXXXVIIIdentes  Offline
Full Member
L

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 252
Canada
Thanks again, PWG. I have checked, and the felt was a holdover found in the piano after its last tuning! I think it was just some shredded felt from a strip used for isolating strings during tuning.

The piano was only slightly flat - we had checked with a Korg tuner, but a few notes were more off than others. (In my youth I used to be able to tune my violin by memory to the slightly different A4s of each of the pianos I played with regularly, beforehand! I drove everyone nuts with my skill, although we all found it useful at orchestra rehearsals.) (I still prefer tuning by ear, and find the electronic tuner just a nuisance. I can adjust for equal temperament OK, but still tune the violin properly in perfect fifths. I do not tune pianos, far too intricate in comparison.)

Nonetheless, maybe damper movement is the culprit, although we do not see one obviously out of place, nor it seems did the tuner when he returned.

My friend is keeping all of the suggestions for her tuner to consider, and plans to wait a little longer to see if further dehumidification solves the issue. He suggested that the dehumidifier be placed under the piano, not slightly to the left of where a player sits, to see if the air movement might be different.

Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes [Re: Gesualdo] #2839617
04/15/19 04:22 PM
04/15/19 04:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,659
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,659
New Hampshire
I caution you against putting either a dehumidifier or humidifier directly under the piano. It will direct a concentration in places you don't want. Better to be patient and let it do it's work outside the piano.

Most people would be flabbergasted to see how small a movement in a damper can make either a good or bad change. 1/64" (even less sometimes) can cause or completely dampen certain partials. I demonstrated this to a young new technician recently in my shop. He was looking over the rebuild in progress on a 100 yr old Steinway O. I had just gotten the dampers on and operating fairly well. One note in the tenor had a prominent high ringing partial which he picked out and asked about it. I had not noticed it yet till he pointed it out. In the process of my "lecture" on partials and nodes...I noticed that the damper on that note was visibly out of line (between 1/64" and 1/32" - not much) with all the other dampers and pointed it out to him. I said: "That MIGHT just be the problem, let's find out". I made one bend below to move it into line and one bend above to seat the damper and played the note...GONE! He was astonished at how just that little bit could take care of it.

What was happening was that the very edge of the damper felt was resting directly on a nodal point which acted like a finger on a harmonic on your violin. Moved it off the node...problem solved. Correct position had been designed into the piano. This one was out of place, therefore behaving badly.

Not saying this is THE problem your friend is faced with. Simply to show that dampers can be VERY sensitive to a change. And dampers that have had time to conform to their respective strings are like some people set in their ways. Try to change them and they don't like it. 😁

There are ways of diagnosing it and it PROBABLY is in the skill set of your current tech. He may simply have not noticed it along with everything else that day.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes [Re: P W Grey] #2839688
04/15/19 07:45 PM
04/15/19 07:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 252
Canada
L
LXXXVIIIdentes Offline
Full Member
LXXXVIIIdentes  Offline
Full Member
L

Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 252
Canada
Pwg, thanks further. I will pass on your suggestion on the dehumidifier, and the dampers.

My friend did like the tuner, who came recommended by mine, and does seem very competent.

Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes [Re: Gesualdo] #2840264
04/17/19 04:25 PM
04/17/19 04:25 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 152
Foster City, CA, US
K
Ken Iisaka Offline
Full Member
Ken Iisaka  Offline
Full Member
K

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 152
Foster City, CA, US
Originally Posted by Gesualdo
I have a piano that is beautiful in many regards (A Yamaha S400B) but for some reason when doing tremolos in the bass(for instance the low C2 and C3, as in the Beethoven Pathetique), I get a ringing high overtone that drives me crazy. When hit loudly as a solo note, no problem on either note!. What can be done about this?


Do you have the sustain pedal pressed down when playing that section? Re-striking vibrating strings with the dampers lifted can emphasize the odd-order harmonics that may be unpleasant or metallic. Hammers are usually located at 1/7 or 1/9 of the speaking length in order to suppress undesired odd-order harmonics, but also causes such harmonics to be emphasized when re-striking. While some voicing work can be performed to lessen the effect, it's also nature of the scale design.

I'd only use a tiny bit of the sustain pedal in that section, if at all.

Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes [Re: Gesualdo] #2840265
04/17/19 04:26 PM
04/17/19 04:26 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 152
Foster City, CA, US
K
Ken Iisaka Offline
Full Member
Ken Iisaka  Offline
Full Member
K

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 152
Foster City, CA, US
And maladjusted or deteriorating damper can certainly create undesirable harmonics.

Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes [Re: Ken Iisaka] #2840280
04/17/19 06:10 PM
04/17/19 06:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,659
New Hampshire
P
P W Grey Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P W Grey  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
P

Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,659
New Hampshire
Originally Posted by Ken Iisaka
Originally Posted by Gesualdo
I have a piano that is beautiful in many regards (A Yamaha S400B) but for some reason when doing tremolos in the bass(for instance the low C2 and C3, as in the Beethoven Pathetique), I get a ringing high overtone that drives me crazy. When hit loudly as a solo note, no problem on either note!. What can be done about this?


Do you have the sustain pedal pressed down when playing that section? Re-striking vibrating strings with the dampers lifted can emphasize the odd-order harmonics that may be unpleasant or metallic. Hammers are usually located at 1/7 or 1/9 of the speaking length in order to suppress undesired odd-order harmonics, but also causes such harmonics to be emphasized when re-striking. While some voicing work can be performed to lessen the effect, it's also nature of the scale design.

I'd only use a tiny bit of the sustain pedal in that section, if at all.



When that piece was written, pianos did not have these kind of issues. Tension and volume was much lower and cases were lightly built. If you played it on a historically accurate instrument, tuned historically correct, you would not hear this.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha 1982 YUS
by Zoti. 11/17/19 12:02 AM
Solo Piano Mastering ???
by Pianoworldstage. 11/16/19 11:52 PM
Malecki
by Haytham. 11/16/19 08:02 PM
Piano Recital Etiquette
by BeccaBb. 11/16/19 07:38 PM
Weekend Novelty
by kbrod1. 11/16/19 07:33 PM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics195,139
Posts2,891,812
Members94,991
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1