Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
109 registered members (Blague, Barly, accordeur, AWilley, Anglagard44, 29 invisible), 1,332 guests, and 413 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Using dowel for wrestplank plugs #2838766 04/13/19 02:42 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 18
G
gevans10 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
G
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 18
Hello there,

I'm interested to see if anyone has had any joy doing this. I have done some test holes using 10mm Beech dowel. To get a good feel I need to use a 6mm (15/64) drill bit with a number 1 pin. I feel this is too much of a difference in size meaning the wood is too soft. It's a whole mm larger than the hole itself.

I do wonder if anybody has had success using a 7.01mm pin in a 6mm hole after stringing? I appreciate that the pin will become tighter when bought up tp tension so perhaps I should use a slightly larger drill bit?

I appreciate too that I can buy some plank and make plugs from that material but I would have thought that a hardwood dowel would suffice as many old planks were made from one price hardwood.

Many thanks for any help or thoughts
George


Last edited by gevans10; 04/13/19 02:50 PM. Reason: accidental post before complete
(ad 800)
PTG Journals
PTG Journal
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2838783 04/13/19 03:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,845
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,845
Grain direction is important, and any plug cannot come loose and rotate, either.


Semipro Tech
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2838878 04/13/19 07:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,373
E
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,373
Dowel from any wood is not strong enough to plug a pinblock with. It is not horizontally laminated like a pinblock.

If you have a loose tuning pin one can let down tension, remove the string from the pin, remove the tuning pin and put in place a shim made from sandpaper with the grit side towards the block and the paper side against the pin. Garnet paper is best on an untreated paper. (Many sandpapers now have oil of some type to reduce clogging).

Size the shim so it will not protrude below the bottom of the block, (if this is a grand), and make it big enough to go all the way around the pin.

Place the shim in the hole so it is just barely at the plate surface. Take a round rod about 1/8th diameter, place it in the hole all the way to the bottom and gently rotate it to work the shim out to the edge of the hole. Then place the pin in the hole and drive it to nearly the correct height, slip the coil of the string back on and the becket into the tuning pin and restore tension little by little being sure to finish pushing the becket in and tighten to coil as some tension is present before pulling it up to pitch.

I have tuned pianos with sandpaper shims that were put in 50 or more years ago and they remained serviceable to this day.


In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible.
According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed.
Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2838951 04/14/19 03:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 18
G
gevans10 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
G
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 18
Ah ok, many thanks. I should have said that currently the frame is out and I have access to the pin block. It doesn't look like this one is designed to be changed as it forms a very integral part of the structure.

Interestingly is is made in 2 parts. There is a roughly 1 inch thick plank running the width of the piano and quite deep. Then there is a approx 1 inch cap on top, which is tapered and shaped like you'd expect a wrest plank. The bottom piece is a type of ply, the top is one piece hardwood.

I could route of the top cap and replace, but I think plugging is a far more appropriate fix for this. There's no splits.

There a 4 different sized pins installed currently. I plan on plugging the over sized ones and installing no. 2 pins (started with 6.8mm pins, rather than 7.01mm)

So yes, I think plugs from wrestplank material is the way forward here if you think dowel won't take the heat

Many thanks

Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2838976 04/14/19 06:03 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 205
B
Bill McKaig,RPT Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 205
Route and replace is your best option especially if its an open face pinblock. While plugs can hold the tension of the strings, the pinblock can still fail because multiple plugs together destroys the overall integrity of the pinblock. I've replaced several of these that have failed. If the piano has modern webbing with bushings, then the plate can prevent this from happening. I have a picture of this somewhere.


Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2839097 04/14/19 11:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,845
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,845
Look into an oscillating multi-tool saw to remove the pinblock.


Semipro Tech
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: BDB] #2839133 04/14/19 01:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,094
K
kpembrook Offline
Platinum Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
Platinum Subscriber
2000 Post Club Member
K
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 2,094
Originally Posted by BDB
Grain direction is important, and any plug cannot come loose and rotate, either.


By definition, a dowell is not a plug and will never be satisfactory.

Plugs of Falconwood pinblock material are available.


Keith Akins, RPT
Piano Technologist
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair
editor emeritus of Piano Technicians Journal
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2839324 04/15/19 04:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 662
W
WilliamTruitt Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 662
I agree with Bill McCaig that routing out each section and fitting a plank of pinblock material to each one is the best solution. It is still a lot of work, but can be fitted very carefully. A lot of these style blocks are mortised into the rim, whereby you must take remove the side laminations to access the block to remove it. .

The oscillating multi-tool saws have their place in this, but only in areas where the proximity of the stretcher and rim sides limit your access with saws. They are effective and can be very accurate in making the cut. But it takes A LOT of time and you will want carbide tipped blades.

Most of the plug jobs that I have seen have been badly done and create their own set of problems.

Will Truitt


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2839408 04/15/19 08:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,694
P
P W Grey Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,694
Christian Bolduc has a video (actually a slide presentation) you can get showing a complete Bechstein pinblock replacement WITHOUT destroying the rim structure. It is very involved and probably not something I would do personally but shows that it CAN be done.

Karl Schulze(sp?) one time owner of Bechstein recommended the routing method and leaving the bottom lamination intact for greater stability and epoxy adhesion (rather than replacing the pinblock).

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: P W Grey] #2839433 04/15/19 09:08 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 662
W
WilliamTruitt Offline
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
W
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 662
Peter, I did a 7' 3" Bechstein about 4 years ago, and the method you describe by Karl Shulze is exactly what I did. Very satisfactory, and an invisible repair one the plate is in, especially since I used a decorative veneer on the top of the pinblock.

Will


fine grand piano custom rebuilding, piano technician and tuner
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2839483 04/15/19 11:18 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 205
B
Bill McKaig,RPT Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 205
I've done a number of these over the years and I have always found a way to incorporate the new pinblock with the existing block. The last one I did was on a Steinway model III mid 1880's 9' grand.


Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2839648 04/15/19 05:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,694
P
P W Grey Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,694
I've never actually done it but would like to use up some of my "scrap" pinblock material on a project like that.

I was intrigued by Christian Bolduc's method whereby he actually cuts the pinblock off at the treble end, duplicates, fits, and then fits the new block in as two pieces but glued back together at the treble end. Fits right into the original mortices.

I have done the epoxy "fill-n-drill" method successfully on two similar pianos. One would never know it is epoxy. Feels great.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2839767 04/16/19 04:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 18
G
gevans10 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
G
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 18
Thanks for all the thoughts.

The piano doesn't merit a block change due to the value. If it was a simple replacement I would do it as I want the experience, or if it was a high value piano I would go ahead with the more involved work.

I think I am leaning towards filling the lot with epoxy and doing it that way as it would be cheaper and quicker than plugging. Are the tolerances the same for using epoxy? Around 0.006? I would imagine much more and it would crack.

Really helpful chatting with you guys here - thanks! I am really enjoying working on these old pianos.

Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2839846 04/16/19 10:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,845
B
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,845
If you look back through the posts, Del Fandrich had a method of swabbing epoxy in the holes which he claimed worked. He explained it a couple of times. You can look through the User List for his name and find his posts.


Semipro Tech
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2840017 04/16/19 09:33 PM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,694
P
P W Grey Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,694
Otherwise, block up the holes securely so it WON'T come through, fill the holes to the top with epoxy, topping off as needed as it gets absorbed into cracks...let it cure and bore with a .272" bit for a .282" tuning pin. Not the most fun job but it works.

Inserts would be better though.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2840083 04/17/19 06:36 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 205
B
Bill McKaig,RPT Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 205
I've never seen the point of this epoxy procedure. In the time it takes to do all that work I can install a new pinblock even if it has to be routed out as above. Then there's no guessing if its going to work or not. You also get to use the proper size tuning pins!


Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2840111 04/17/19 08:16 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,694
P
P W Grey Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,694
Bill,

That is why I say inserts would be better (routed).

However, some people aren't set up for that kind of work. If you are, it's cake...if you aren't, it's a mountain.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2840136 04/17/19 08:56 AM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 18
G
gevans10 Offline OP
Junior Member
OP Offline
Junior Member
G
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 18
I would like to have a go but not on this piano. There are 4 or 5 different sized pins of varying tightness so the whole thing needs changing really.

The epoxy solution means I can use all size 1/0 pins and it'll last probably just as long. Can still drill and plug if a few go loose over time etc so I've gone ahead and bought the resin. I seen a lot of people have done it when looking across the web all with positive results

Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2840158 04/17/19 09:45 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 205
B
Bill McKaig,RPT Offline
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
B
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 205
I've never used this epoxy procedure, but I did see a class on it and if I remember correctly you still have to go a pin size up. You should confirm that before you commit.


Professional Piano Technician serving the Tampa bay area. website: mckaigpianoservice.com
Re: Using dowel for wrestplank plugs [Re: gevans10] #2840188 04/17/19 10:45 AM
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,694
P
P W Grey Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
Online Content
2000 Post Club Member
P
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 2,694
The last time I did it I started with a .257" bit for a .282" (2/0) pin. WAY WAY WAY too tight. Gradually increased the bit size till I got to .272" which felt about right. So .010" under the pin size. I used System Three Epoxy (very thin stuff) and let it seep into every nook and cranny.

The experiments on bit size were done initially on scrap (old) pinblock stock filled the same as the target. You will need to experiment similarly as the density of your epoxy may be different. Mine was quite tough.

However the feel is indistinguishable from a real pinblock. There is nothing about it that would make you say: "Hey, did you epoxy this thing?"

One caveat though is that since there is essentially no "resilience" to the epoxy, it will not respond well if you decide to turn a pin out to some degree and then go back. It will lose a lot of friction doing that. So all of your install and tuning is in the "IN" direction if you catch my drift. If you're the type of tuner that yanks the pin way down and then back up to pitch every time, it ain't gonna last long. Get it where you want it and keep it there...MINIMAL back turning.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 04/17/19 10:47 AM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8

Moderated by  Piano World 

(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Holiday Gift for Teacher?
by FormerlyFlute - 12/06/19 04:55 PM
Testing Emoji Posts
by Gizmo - 12/06/19 04:42 PM
Help~~ Sticky key Young Chang PG185
by Emmazhaonc - 12/06/19 11:43 AM
Fix Kawai CA97 (GF1 and GF2) stuck key (Repairing guide)
by David Izquierdo - 12/06/19 11:10 AM
What do I tell the tech
by Calllu - 12/06/19 09:30 AM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics195,533
Posts2,899,170
Members95,167
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3