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CA98 distortion on 3 keys #2840051
04/17/19 05:15 AM
04/17/19 05:15 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
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iLogic Offline OP
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iLogic  Offline OP
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Hi!

I’m getting a distortion of the sound on F F# and G in the 3rd octave to the right counting from the center.

Are these 3 keys (or in this region at least) usually a bit distorted due to some resonance or something because of a specific frequency? Or is this normally not an issue? I’m getting the distorted sound (kind of like a broken speaker, but vaguely) in both pianist and sound mode and on these 3 keys only.

Could try and make a recording but it’s hard to capture on camera as the sound gets distorted on every key then...

//iLogic

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Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: iLogic] #2840054
04/17/19 05:23 AM
04/17/19 05:23 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 364
Cheshire, UK
Cheshire Chris Offline
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Cheshire Chris  Offline
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Do you hear the distortion when you use headphones, too? If not, it's probably resonance.


Chris

Yamaha P-515, Yamaha Reface CP.
Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: iLogic] #2840055
04/17/19 05:23 AM
04/17/19 05:23 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,314
Cheshire, United Kingdom
Doug M. Offline
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Originally Posted by iLogic
Hi!

I’m getting a distortion of the sound on F F# and G in the 3rd octave to the right counting from the center.

Are these 3 keys (or in this region at least) usually a bit distorted due to some resonance or something because of a specific frequency? Or is this normally not an issue? I’m getting the distorted sound (kind of like a broken speaker, but vaguely) in both pianist and sound mode and on these 3 keys only.

Could try and make a recording but it’s hard to capture on camera as the sound gets distorted on every key then...

//iLogic


Hi iLogic,

Q:
1) Is this a new purchase fault i.e., is this a fault you've discovered directly after purchase, or a new fault that has arisen recently that wasn't there when you first acquired the instrument?
2) Does this only happen on certain sounds or all sounds?
3) If you throttle the volume, does the distortion go away or not?
4) Do you hear the distortion using headphones or just through the speakers?

I had a similar thing happen when I brought a pair of iLoud micromonitors: one of the speakers had a fault which caused a distortion around 50Hz.

Kind regards,

Doug


Instruments: Current - Kawai MP7; Past - Yamaha PSR7000
Software: Sibelius 7; Neuratron Photoscore Pro 8
Stand: K&M 18953 Table-style Stage Piano Stand
Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: iLogic] #2840061
04/17/19 05:47 AM
04/17/19 05:47 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,165
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Kawai James  Offline
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Hamamatsu, Japan
Hello iLogic,

May I ask if your CA98 has been updated to the latest v1.0.2g system software (available from the Kawai Global website)?

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: Kawai James] #2840067
04/17/19 06:20 AM
04/17/19 06:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 86
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iLogic Offline OP
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Answers in the quote Dough:

Originally Posted by Doug M.
Originally Posted by iLogic
Hi!

I’m getting a distortion of the sound on F F# and G in the 3rd octave to the right counting from the center.

Are these 3 keys (or in this region at least) usually a bit distorted due to some resonance or something because of a specific frequency? Or is this normally not an issue? I’m getting the distorted sound (kind of like a broken speaker, but vaguely) in both pianist and sound mode and on these 3 keys only.

Could try and make a recording but it’s hard to capture on camera as the sound gets distorted on every key then...

//iLogic


Hi iLogic,

Q:
1) Is this a new purchase fault i.e., is this a fault you've discovered directly after purchase, or a new fault that has arisen recently that wasn't there when you first acquired the instrument?

Ive only owned the piano for about a month and have not touched these keys until recently since I haven’t played a piece involving them.

2) Does this only happen on certain sounds or all sounds?

Bright sounds. SK-EX, Concert, not SK5

3) If you throttle the volume, does the distortion go away or not?

Higher volume = worse

4) Do you hear the distortion using headphones or just through the speakers?


Speakers only

I had a similar thing happen when I brought a pair of iLoud micromonitors: one of the speakers had a fault which caused a distortion around 50Hz.

Kind regards,

Doug


It’s a very sharp tone, almost as a cymbal is playing in the background. Sound as if the speaker on the top right is blown.


Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello iLogic,

May I ask if your CA98 has been updated to the latest v1.0.2g system software (available from the Kawai Global website)?

Kind regards,
James
x


I don’t know. It just says 1.0.2?

Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: iLogic] #2840071
04/17/19 06:28 AM
04/17/19 06:28 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,909
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,909
Originally Posted by iLogic
I don’t know. It just says 1.0.2?

See #3 in this post


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: iLogic] #2840074
04/17/19 06:36 AM
04/17/19 06:36 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,165
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Kawai James  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,165
Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted by iLogic
I don’t know. It just says 1.0.2?


This is the touchscreen software version - v1.0.2 is the latest available.
However, there is also a system software version - the latest being v1.0.2g.

To check the system software version, press and hold the topmost (treble-most) E, G, and B keys, then turn on the power.

It's likely that your CA98 is using the v1.0.2f system software (or possibly older), in which case, please download the v1.0.2g software update from the Kawai Global website at the address below:

http://www.kawai-global.com/support/updates/

Note that the update instructions refer to stages 1, 2, and 3. However, in your case, only the 1st stage is necessary - the 2nd and 3rd stages are for the touchscreen software, but can be skipped as your instrument is already using the latest available version.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2840075
04/17/19 06:37 AM
04/17/19 06:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,165
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Kawai James  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,165
Hamamatsu, Japan
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by iLogic
I don’t know. It just says 1.0.2?

See #3 in this post


Thank you Tyrone, however the CA98/CA78 use a different power-on key combination to show the system software version screen.

I think it might be a good idea if I create a new thread specifically for the v1.0.2g update, with instructions for NV10, CA98/CA78, and ATX3/Aures customers to check the system software version.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: Kawai James] #2840089
04/17/19 07:49 AM
04/17/19 07:49 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 86
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iLogic Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by iLogic
I don’t know. It just says 1.0.2?


This is the touchscreen software version - v1.0.2 is the latest available.
However, there is also a system software version - the latest being v1.0.2g.

To check the system software version, press and hold the topmost (treble-most) E, G, and B keys, then turn on the power.

It's likely that your CA98 is using the v1.0.2f system software (or possibly older), in which case, please download the v1.0.2g software update from the Kawai Global website at the address below:

http://www.kawai-global.com/support/updates/

Note that the update instructions refer to stages 1, 2, and 3. However, in your case, only the 1st stage is necessary - the 2nd and 3rd stages are for the touchscreen software, but can be skipped as your instrument is already using the latest available version.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Ok will try this later tonight. Is this something that has been addressed in the update? Seems more of a hardware issue.

Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: iLogic] #2840091
04/17/19 07:54 AM
04/17/19 07:54 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
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iLogic Offline OP
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I had 1.0.2f

Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: iLogic] #2840093
04/17/19 08:04 AM
04/17/19 08:04 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
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iLogic Offline OP
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Alright I updated to *g but it had no effect on the issue.

Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: iLogic] #2840104
04/17/19 09:02 AM
04/17/19 09:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,181
Europe
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arc7urus Offline
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Europe
Originally Posted by iLogic

1) Is this a new purchase fault i.e., is this a fault you've discovered directly after purchase, or a new fault that has arisen recently that wasn't there when you first acquired the instrument?
Ive only owned the piano for about a month and have not touched these keys until recently since I haven’t played a piece involving them.

2) Does this only happen on certain sounds or all sounds?
Bright sounds. SK-EX, Concert, not SK5

3) If you throttle the volume, does the distortion go away or not?
Higher volume = worse

4) Do you hear the distortion using headphones or just through the speakers?
Speakers only
...
It’s a very sharp tone, almost as a cymbal is playing in the background. Sound as if the speaker on the top right is blown.

This is trivial comment, but be aware that the DP uses samples recorded from an acoustic piano. This means that the piano sound is far from being "perfect" in the sense that it includes overtones and harmonics that are overlaid with different types of resonances. So, the sound you are describing as a "distortion" might be completely normal. In the case of CA98, you will also find that there are slight differences in timbre and volume across the keyboard range. These characteristics of the sound can be adjusted using the settings and/or per-key adjustments in the Virtual Technician (the process is time consuming and convoluted due to the UI, but it is doable and worth it, imo). For example, I have adjusted a number of keys on the 5th and 6th octave due to such timbre and volume variations.

However, you say that you are not experiencing this issue over headphones. Are you sure you don't hear this "cymbal" sound at all the headphones? I am trying to rule out the resonance.

Can you hear some kind of vibration noise if you put your ear close to the top right speakers? What happens when other sounds are played at high volumes, e.g. synths, organs, strings?

Have you tried disabling the Wall EQ?

Finally, can you please try the following:
- play the problematic keys on your CA98 and record the result to a USB stick as WAV
- playback the recording on your CA98 at a high volume (if the volume is too low, increase the gain before you start recording)
- do you still hear the distortion while playing back the recording? If yes, please share the recording and I will play it back on my CA98 to check what happens.

And you can always try recording this with your phone as well...

Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: iLogic] #2840115
04/17/19 09:24 AM
04/17/19 09:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 765
Southern California
TomLC Offline
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TomLC  Offline
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Posts: 765
Southern California
[u][/u]3
Originally Posted by iLogic
Hi!
I’m getting a distortion of the sound on F F# and G in the 3rd octave to the right counting from the center.
//iLogic


‘From the center”. It seems like you mean F6, F#6, and G6. Strings from G6 on are undamped. Could it be that is what you hear? As if the damper pedal is engaged? Play F6, no resonance. Play G6, you hear the strings resonate.

Last edited by TomLC; 04/17/19 09:27 AM.

[Linked Image]

Kawai Novus NV10
Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: TomLC] #2840126
04/17/19 09:43 AM
04/17/19 09:43 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 86
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iLogic Offline OP
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Originally Posted by TomLC
[u][/u]3
Originally Posted by iLogic
Hi!
I’m getting a distortion of the sound on F F# and G in the 3rd octave to the right counting from the center.
//iLogic


‘From the center”. It seems like you mean F6, F#6, and G6. Strings from G6 on are undamped. Could it be that is what you hear? As if the damper pedal is engaged? Play F6, no resonance. Play G6, you hear the strings resonate.


Doubt it since the keys to the right does not produce the sound. I will try and record it in some way.

Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: TomLC] #2840135
04/17/19 09:53 AM
04/17/19 09:53 AM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,181
Europe
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arc7urus Offline
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Europe
Originally Posted by TomLC
[u][/u]3
Originally Posted by iLogic
Hi!
I’m getting a distortion of the sound on F F# and G in the 3rd octave to the right counting from the center.
//iLogic


‘From the center”. It seems like you mean F6, F#6, and G6. Strings from G6 on are undamped. Could it be that is what you hear? As if the damper pedal is engaged? Play F6, no resonance. Play G6, you hear the strings resonate.


Exactly. To avoid naming confusion, the orange keys are undamped.
[Linked Image]

Anyway, these DPs have some timbre and volume variance in the 5th and 6th octaves. I would never say that the sound is "distorted", but there is some slight variation. We need a recording to try figuring out if this is normal resonance or something else.

Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: arc7urus] #2840150
04/17/19 10:29 AM
04/17/19 10:29 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 86
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iLogic Offline OP
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iLogic  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by TomLC
[u][/u]3
Originally Posted by iLogic
Hi!
I’m getting a distortion of the sound on F F# and G in the 3rd octave to the right counting from the center.
//iLogic


‘From the center”. It seems like you mean F6, F#6, and G6. Strings from G6 on are undamped. Could it be that is what you hear? As if the damper pedal is engaged? Play F6, no resonance. Play G6, you hear the strings resonate.


Exactly. To avoid naming confusion, the orange keys are undamped.
[Linked Image]

Anyway, these DPs have some timbre and volume variance in the 5th and 6th octaves. I would never say that the sound is "distorted", but there is some slight variation. We need a recording to try figuring out if this is normal resonance or something else.


Will try and record when the house is somewhat silent, later tonight perhaps. Where do I upload the recorded sound?

Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: iLogic] #2840162
04/17/19 10:49 AM
04/17/19 10:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,181
Europe
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arc7urus Offline
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Originally Posted by iLogic
Will try and record when the house is somewhat silent, later tonight perhaps. Where do I upload the recorded sound?

You can share the WAV via dropbox or similar service. Or upload it to https://soundcloud.com/ (or https://instaud.io/ or equivalent).

Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: iLogic] #2840180
04/17/19 11:22 AM
04/17/19 11:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 133
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nicknameTaken Offline
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I believe thats the 'timbre' or how I call it, the reason why I dislike sampled Kawai/Yamaha sound.
The Noire VST doesn't has this issue.

Because of this I use either PianoTeq or Noire.

Last edited by nicknameTaken; 04/17/19 11:22 AM.
Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: nicknameTaken] #2840181
04/17/19 11:28 AM
04/17/19 11:28 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,909
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,909
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I believe thats the 'timbre' or how I call it, the reason why I dislike sampled Kawai/Yamaha sound.
The Noire VST doesn't has this issue.

Because of this I use either PianoTeq or Noire.

I think you are giving a perfect example of why I think the modeled versus sampled VST controversy boils down to personal preference. I've read arguments on this forum which exactly single out timbre as the reason they dislike pianoteq and like sampled VSTs instead. Yet here, you are citing timbre in going the other way. Personal preference is why I disliked my sampled piano (FP30) so much that I ended up with a modeled VST (Pianoteq) which I use 95% of the time, instead. Personal preference is why another PW forum member mentioned in another thread preferring the FP30 over Pianoteq. Time and time again, I see issues raised on this digital forum which seem rooted in personal preference.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: CA98 distortion on 3 keys [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2840203
04/17/19 12:53 PM
04/17/19 12:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,181
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arc7urus Offline
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Europe
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I believe thats the 'timbre' or how I call it, the reason why I dislike sampled Kawai/Yamaha sound.
The Noire VST doesn't has this issue.

Because of this I use either PianoTeq or Noire.

I think you are giving a perfect example of why I think the modeled versus sampled VST controversy boils down to personal preference. I've read arguments on this forum which exactly single out timbre as the reason they dislike pianoteq and like sampled VSTs instead. Yet here, you are citing timbre in going the other way. Personal preference is why I disliked my sampled piano (FP30) so much that I ended up with a modeled VST (Pianoteq) which I use 95% of the time, instead. Personal preference is why another PW forum member mentioned in another thread preferring the FP30 over Pianoteq. Time and time again, I see issues raised on this digital forum which seem rooted in personal preference.

Exactly. Sampled or modelled will never sound like an acoustic played live with the current technology. At the very best a sampled or modelled VST or DP might sound like a "good" _recording_ of an acoustic. Now, the definition of "good" is purely personal. I have dozens of recordings of extraordinary concert acoustic grand pianos played by extraordinary pianists and, regardless of their immense musical value, I truly dislike the sound of a significant number of these recordings. Imo, what matters is the playability/expressivity one can achieve with a VST/DP. The sound will always be subpar and many options on the market are able to be very close to a recording of an acoustic...

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