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Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: mabraman] #2839213
04/14/19 08:36 PM
04/14/19 08:36 PM
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Lady Bird Offline
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Bogus !
Well not deliberately , I may get my own anxieties mixed up
with my own fear of voiding MYwarranty . I have never spoken
about any one else's warranty being voided.People on this forum
know me by now for not spreading deliberate rumours or lies.
I also try not to be deliberately rude like you just because my
ego is so large.
You surprise me Pianoloverus!

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Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: mabraman] #2839217
04/14/19 08:58 PM
04/14/19 08:58 PM
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Lady Bird Offline
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Pianoloverus,
I do not need to explain to you about the other thread .
Besides you were very helpful and even kind in that thread
I shall however mention a thread that was in the music
teachers section shortly after I joined this this forum .
The thread was called " Good Teachers Bad Pianos "
In this thread the forum member who is professional
pianist and person who knew a great deal about tuning,
regulation and voicing said that we should regulate our pianos
frequently. I cannot remember how often he said,but
my feeling is that he said about every 2nd year !
So you SEE Mr pianoloverus what WE BELIEVE comes from
many things.
You should try to be less obsessive and more TRUSTING in
the GOOD intentions of your fellow posters !

Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: j&j] #2839233
04/14/19 10:17 PM
04/14/19 10:17 PM
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Lady Bird Offline
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Originally Posted by j&j
Originally Posted by Lady Bird

What if you play a Chopin Polonaise and you have FFF do you give an MF?
The main thing is not to give a hard tone when you play FFF.
Tone development is an important aspect of piano playing.
The alternative is just to play soft pieces.
If I want to have my piano voiced I would watch out for too much needling If I want to take care of the piano's hammers that is.
Leaning on the piano I do not understand?

Yes LadyBird, my piano tech mentioned if you needle the hammers too much, it would “kill the sound”. Buy the piano with the sound you like from the start rather than be forced to voice it aggressively to achieve the sound you want.

Yes I can understand that.Those hammers I suppose are very well made yet I also would watch care carefully if voicing is mentioned.Like you I do not really like the needling.Perhaps someone
will present a thread about the mysteries of voicing ?You probably know a great deal more than I do.

Last edited by Lady Bird; 04/14/19 10:18 PM. Reason: Missing word
Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: Lady Bird] #2839242
04/14/19 10:37 PM
04/14/19 10:37 PM
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Posts: 1,356
Queensland, Australia
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
So perhaps my Sauter booklet that came with the piano just means that the piano should be regulated and voiced in the first or second year of purchase and for it just to.be checked every other year just as a.precaution against neglect ?

My Grotrian is more prescriptive:
"The table below is intended as general guide to the maintenance services which are required. Which other additional works are to be carried out depends how high your own individual requirements are with regard to tuning, voicing and playing characteristics, how often the instrument is played and to what climatic fluctuations it is subjected."

6 Mths - tuning;
12 Mths - Tuning, check pedal functions, check all action screws, check easy working of keyboard, check regulation, correct fine adjustment if necessary, balance voicing;
18 Mths - tuning
24 Mths - Tuning, check regulation, check voicing and balance
30 Mths - tuning
36 Mths - Tuning, check regulation and voicing.

I have mine done about 3 times a year.

However, the technician I use says the following:

"All our routine piano tuning includes not only tuning, but also minor regulation and voicing adjustments. In other words, we offer a full tuning and overview service for every piano as standard."

And his charge is the same as other technicians in our area.

I watch him - he tunes first, then goes through the entire piano checking every note checking the regulation and comparative voicing - he's quite a good pianist (and woodwind player).

Eventually, it will need a full regulation and voicing - it's 7 yrs old now, and maybe in another 2 or 3 years I'll have that done.


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: Lady Bird] #2839245
04/14/19 10:51 PM
04/14/19 10:51 PM
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Posts: 352
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Pianoloverus,
You should try to be less obsessive and more TRUSTING in
the GOOD intentions of your fellow posters !


Pianoloverus in the 2 years I have been a member is one of the most patient and always helpful contributors on PW. I am often amazed at how balanced, open and considerate he is in response to other posts (even if it involves his own M&H BB). He must have been a heck of a good high school teacher in Manhattan.

Last edited by Sanfrancisco; 04/14/19 10:59 PM.
Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: mabraman] #2839249
04/14/19 11:04 PM
04/14/19 11:04 PM
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Yes Back_To_Study_Piano, The Sauter booklet is similar, -prescriptive
but" for all the pianos in Germany " I shall not share any information
here ,because some people think it's talking about thier pianos or
heavens forbid thier warranty or if you perhaps interpret incorrectly
you are accused of deliberately making bogus claims !

Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: Sanfrancisco] #2839251
04/14/19 11:14 PM
04/14/19 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Sanfrancisco
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Pianoloverus,
You should try to be less obsessive and more TRUSTING in
the GOOD intentions of your fellow posters !


Pianoloverus in the 2 years I have been a member is one of the most patient and always helpful contributors on PW. I am often amazed at how balanced, open and considerate he is in response to other posts (even if it involves his own M&H BB). He must have been a heck of a good high school teacher in Manhattan.

Yes you were on that other thread .I certainly have no reason to have
much regard for what you say !!!
Yes I know Pianoloverus, he may have his faults ,as we all do ! But I
know he is intelligent, and most of all he is honest and I do not doubt
his sincerity.
By the Sanfrancisco do you know the strange poster is who has sent me a PM enquiring about my piano ???

Last edited by Lady Bird; 04/14/19 11:16 PM. Reason: Missing word
Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: Lady Bird] #2839280
04/15/19 02:32 AM
04/15/19 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Sanfrancisco
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Pianoloverus,
You should try to be less obsessive and more TRUSTING in
the GOOD intentions of your fellow posters !


Pianoloverus in the 2 years I have been a member is one of the most patient and always helpful contributors on PW. I am often amazed at how balanced, open and considerate he is in response to other posts (even if it involves his own M&H BB). He must have been a heck of a good high school teacher in Manhattan.

Yes you were on that other thread .I certainly have no reason to have
much regard for what you say !!!
Yes I know Pianoloverus, he may have his faults ,as we all do ! But I
know he is intelligent, and most of all he is honest and I do not doubt
his sincerity.
By the Sanfrancisco do you know the strange poster is who has sent me a PM enquiring about my piano ???

You have a nerve ,you think I forgot the threat you made.Just stay away from me Sanfrancisco!
Why do you not just send another video from that dealer in Seattle just to hurt and confuse everyone with a new artificial thread and include a few pianos by Sauter ???

Last edited by Lady Bird; 04/15/19 02:33 AM. Reason: Missing word
Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: mabraman] #2839291
04/15/19 03:25 AM
04/15/19 03:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 662
Valencia, Spain
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mabraman Offline OP
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I thought this thread was already interesting without these childy fights. Please use PM to argue.

With regards to what manteinment is typical on pianos, sure that voicing and regulation (beyond specs) is not by default, at least for average entry uprights smile Maybe it is for expensive grands where the profite margin is larger.
Mine was voiced for free and I can assure this is not common at all in my region.

But this is quite off-topic.

I understand that an upright has two or three big compromises: action (less responsive than in grands) inharmonicity and sound projection (in you face). Actually I sometines put a piece of acoustic foam between my face and 'the beast' , tight with the folded music rest. It sounds better, then.

Last edited by mabraman; 04/15/19 03:26 AM.

Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200
Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: mabraman] #2839320
04/15/19 05:36 AM
04/15/19 05:36 AM
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Posts: 2,220
Scotland
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I do wish that folks here would separate the topic of regulation and voicing. I have studied and apply both techniques on my Blüthner since it was new. An acoustic piano has materials that expand and contract with the environment, how often and hard it is played and its hammer felt and action bushes compress rapidly at first then remains stable for a long period before excessive wear requires remedy.

The act of regulation is merely to return the piano action to the design specification of the manufacturer. There is a distinct sequence to be followed in order that the regulation process is a success. That said it is common for only one part of the regulation to go out of specification and that part can be regulated without needing anything further done.

When the piano is new the felts of the action buttons are the first to compress, i.e. are made permanently thinner. This results in lost motion which is easily corrected by rotating the buttons slightly with a special tool. Later, the felt punching of the key balance rail and the key front felt punchings also compress and this leads to the hammer let-off distance increasing. It is at this point that an experienced piano technician is required to carry out the full regulation sequence. There is a correlation between a minimum of three adjustments and it is folly for anyone to use trial and error to bring the action to correct specification unless they are prepared to study (see Arthur Reblitz book "Piano Servicing, Tuning, and Rebuilding: For the Professional, the Student, and the Hobbyist 2") and have access, as I did, to another inexpensive piano. There are some out-of-regulation issues that are minor, e.g. the spacing between some keys might not be uniform. Others might be more serious, e.g. the hammer shaft has bent so that one of the three strings is not being struck.

The number of regulation procedures per period is not important, but that the pianist recognises when regulation is required. Whether or not self regulation will be carried out I recommend learning how a piano action works in detail.

Voicing, as I mentioned above is a completely different operation and many call it the art of voicing and that is a topic I need not go into here.

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: Beemer] #2839460
04/15/19 11:27 AM
04/15/19 11:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 27,668
Oakland
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Voicing is not a completely different operation from regulation, as they should be done in tandem. Hammer shaping should be done before regulation, and final voicing should be done afterwards.


Semipro Tech
Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: BDB] #2839465
04/15/19 11:40 AM
04/15/19 11:40 AM
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Scotland
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Originally Posted by BDB
Voicing is not a completely different operation from regulation, as they should be done in tandem. Hammer shaping should be done before regulation, and final voicing should be done afterwards.

My understanding was that the thread concerned new pianos whose hammers should not require reshaping.

Ian


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: Beemer] #2839521
04/15/19 01:18 PM
04/15/19 01:18 PM
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Oakland
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The beginning of the thread was many posts ago. Besides, new sets of hammers should be filed for best results, but usually are not, at least by manufacturers.


Semipro Tech
Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: mabraman] #2839576
04/15/19 03:42 PM
04/15/19 03:42 PM
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If you need to wear a space suite too tolerate an upright and think of an upright piano as a beast then a digital would be better suited.
I have tried many uprights and I do not experience these problems that you talked about.Even in just reasonably priced pianos the tone
is well balanced.
You have the thick wood of the cabinet .The sound comes from the
back of the piano.
Position away from the wall,cover up,open the top lid let the sound out.Buy a TransAcoustic ,a silent mode piano, a used grand ,a spinet,
a piano with mini hammers,or a really expensive upright piano.
There are choices!!!
There is also the room you can buy very thick undercoverage for carpets !

Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: mabraman] #2839610
04/15/19 04:59 PM
04/15/19 04:59 PM
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Quote
Why there's no manufacturer that design 'low voice' pianos as an alternative line of production?


Today I was plaging on a Petrof piano. The room I was playing in was about 15m2, (3x5).
The room had sound absorbers, and the sound of the room was quite pleasent. I do not know the model number of Petrof, but quite a small piano. While the sound was good enough, the problem was there was almost no dynamics. I could play from mp to f, but that was it. I have played the same model in a different (and much smaller) room before with much better dynamics. It was a bit frustrating for Beethoven’s sudden change in dynamics.

Was it the room, the piano, or the regulation... The piano was more or less in tune.

[Linked Image]

Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: Lady Bird] #2839696
04/15/19 09:19 PM
04/15/19 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Sanfrancisco
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Pianoloverus,
You should try to be less obsessive and more TRUSTING in
the GOOD intentions of your fellow posters !


Pianoloverus in the 2 years I have been a member is one of the most patient and always helpful contributors on PW. I am often amazed at how balanced, open and considerate he is in response to other posts (even if it involves his own M&H BB). He must have been a heck of a good high school teacher in Manhattan.

Yes you were on that other thread .I certainly have no reason to have
much regard for what you say !!!
Yes I know Pianoloverus, he may have his faults ,as we all do ! But I
know he is intelligent, and most of all he is honest and I do not doubt
his sincerity.
By the Sanfrancisco do you know the strange poster is who has sent me a PM enquiring about my piano ???

You have a nerve ,you think I forgot the threat you made.Just stay away from me Sanfrancisco!
Why do you not just send another video from that dealer in Seattle just to hurt and confuse everyone with a new artificial thread and include a few pianos by Sauter ???

I am sorry Sanfrancisco, perhaps I have gone overboard ! If I am demonizing you ,I am wrong.Sometimes it can be very difficult to truly judge people in the social media. ,So I am sorry !

Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: mabraman] #2839707
04/15/19 10:32 PM
04/15/19 10:32 PM
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Mabraman
I hope you find your piano, I truly do! I just have never experienced what you have.You seem to be unusually sensitive regarding upright
pianos.There must be an answer to your situation whether through
model,brand ,voicing the piano or changing what is in the room.
I wish you well.

Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: mabraman] #2839730
04/16/19 01:43 AM
04/16/19 01:43 AM
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I appreciate Frank's very quick handling of the posts that appeared in this thread in which I am falsely accused of making a threat to another member. It was alluded by this member that I possibly made this threat under the guise of a "strange" poster who sent her a private message. Finally I was to told to "stay away" from the member as if I was somehow going to physically track her down, follow through on the threat and hurt her.
This is a large step beyond "perhaps" just going "overboard". I regret that this has occurred on PW, a site and community I have enjoyed being in for the past 5 1/2 years. I take these written innuendos and accusations very seriously.

Last edited by Sanfrancisco; 04/16/19 01:51 AM.
Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: mabraman] #2839736
04/16/19 03:12 AM
04/16/19 03:12 AM
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Lady Bird Offline
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I do not understand by what you mean.
Yes in the other thread you said you were
going to report what I had said about my
Sauter warranty to Piano Buyer (Sauter would
suffer not me )
That was AFTER I said I was not interested
in your tuning System that YOU sent me a
PM about ???
Yesterday Pianoloverus mentioned that Other
thread !!!
At the same time I was dealing with all this
nonsense on this thread, I received a PM from
a new poster wanting to know details of my
piano,a new member? Yes I got things things
mixed up and I thought it was a friend of
Yours.
In that other thread yes you HARASSED me
to reveal exactly what was on my warranty .
The threat I was taking of was mentioning
as I said earlier negative details of my warranty to Piano
Buyer
Yes you are correct I am afraid of you because
I thought that very unusual behahavior.
No Frank has not contacted me ,he handled
nothing ., Because there is nothing to handle ?
So Sanfrancisco are you lying or are you just
trying to scare me again.
I still have your PM to me and I have the new
posters message.Yes you certainly do scare me
so I hope this is what you intended.

Re: Why there are so many loud uprights? [Re: mabraman] #2839739
04/16/19 03:38 AM
04/16/19 03:38 AM
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The above apology came purely from me because pianoloverus
really made nasty accusations about me saying or implying I deliberately created bogus rumours, made me really angry.The fact is in my piano booklet it tells owners to voice and regulate ones piano at least every 2 years.Since this material is near details about the Warranty, I am only human to connect these.He then lied and said I spread bogus on that other thread (the one you threatened to contact
Piano Buyer )Then yesterday you give Pianoloverus a glowing character reference to ME ????
I apologized to you because I could see how this chain of events
allowed me to snap at you the way I did.

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