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Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2839725
04/16/19 12:20 AM
04/16/19 12:20 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 103
UK
J
Jt2nd Offline
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UK
Truly shocking to see the blaze destroying such a beautiful cathedral .I was just reading last week about the power struggle in the 11th century between Italy and France for the direction the Catholic Church would take. The whole world will feel the loss of such a special building in such a romantic city .

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Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2839743
04/16/19 03:56 AM
04/16/19 03:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,019
London
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David-G Offline
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London
It seems that the three large rose windows which are special treasures have been saved. And it seems that most of the stone structure, including the vault, has been saved. We have to hope for the organ.

It seems that much of the wooden roof structure was mediaeval and is a great loss. But also, much of the wooden structure, including the spire, dated from the nineteenth century restoration.

So amid the tragedy there is cause to be thankful.

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: David-G] #2839758
04/16/19 04:55 AM
04/16/19 04:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,095
Queensland, Australia
backto_study_piano Offline
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Originally Posted by David-G
It seems that the three large rose windows which are special treasures have been saved. And it seems that most of the stone structure, including the vault, has been saved. We have to hope for the organ.

It seems that much of the wooden roof structure was mediaeval and is a great loss. But also, much of the wooden structure, including the spire, dated from the nineteenth century restoration.

So amid the tragedy there is cause to be thankful.

Our local organ builder commented that "... the heat and water damage would be the worst thing for the organ ..." and smoke. The majority of the pipes are lead/tin.


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2839781
04/16/19 07:38 AM
04/16/19 07:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 496
Scotland
S
ShyPianist Offline
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Joined: Feb 2019
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Scotland
I hear that the organ has been saved (post by Pianist magazine).


“If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) - stolen from Kreisler
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2839786
04/16/19 08:13 AM
04/16/19 08:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,342
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


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All of this is good news (rose windows, organ, relics, stone structures, etc)! In the darkest days yesterday, it seemed like it would be much worse.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2839834
04/16/19 10:57 AM
04/16/19 10:57 AM
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It is indeed confirmed that the grand organ suffered only very minor damage and has been saved.

[Linked Image]

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: Bosendorff] #2839842
04/16/19 11:21 AM
04/16/19 11:21 AM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,259
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted by Bosendorff
It is indeed confirmed that the grand organ suffered only very minor damage and has been saved.

[Linked Image]


Wonderful. I knew that the console was located at the front of the church near the bell towers, so there was a possibility it might be saved. Not so sure, however, about the pipes.


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2839874
04/16/19 12:49 PM
04/16/19 12:49 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 1,370
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
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Dublin
According to one of the organists at Notre Dame, it hasn't been damaged by fire or water, but it is covered in soot, and needs to be dismantled and cleaned.

Last edited by johnstaf; 04/16/19 12:51 PM.
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2839893
04/16/19 01:35 PM
04/16/19 01:35 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,525
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Victoria, BC
Notre Dame de Paris is such a remarkable testament to faith, to human ingenuity, to craft, to art, to history and to culture that no human with a heart will fail to grieve over the partial destruction of such an iconic edifice.

Already, funds are being promised for the reconstruction project which could take years, even decades, to complete. In those efforts to reconstruct, one can only hope that the same inspiration that motivated the original architects, the artisans, the labourers, Victor Hugo, Viollet-le-Duc and others will prevail whatever the cost and effort.

In the meantime, while we must hope, one can only grieve with the French and the rest of the world over this tragic event.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2840046
04/17/19 04:20 AM
04/17/19 04:20 AM
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,095
Queensland, Australia
backto_study_piano Offline
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Queensland, Australia
Yes, great news. One blog which I subscribe to posted this YouTube - a track from a CD thought to be he last recording made on the Cavaille Coll (the major 1800s upgrade by them) Organ in Notre Dame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_...zbChiVj1WXL52bv5CCD7XfEHrB4ZKSlH976p4Ol4


Alan from Queensland, Australia (and Clara - my Grotrian Concert & Allen Organ (CF-17a)).
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2840101
04/17/19 08:54 AM
04/17/19 08:54 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,163
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Raleigh, North Carolina
I hope the restoration doesn't take a century to complete.

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: MacMacMac] #2840106
04/17/19 09:06 AM
04/17/19 09:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,342
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,342
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I hope the restoration doesn't take a century to complete.

Macron is setting a five year goal, however professional architects have already spoken out that is is unrealistic and the rebuilding could actually take decades.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2840109
04/17/19 09:13 AM
04/17/19 09:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,154
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
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In the Ozarks of Missouri
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I hope the restoration doesn't take a century to complete.

Macron is setting a five year goal, however professional architects have already spoken out that is is unrealistic and the rebuilding could actually take decades.

I have read the same thing. It will probably take a long time.


[Linked Image]
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2840155
04/17/19 10:36 AM
04/17/19 10:36 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,236
Reseda, California
J
JohnSprung Offline OP
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JohnSprung  Offline OP
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 6,236
Reseda, California

While a project like this restoration can be quite successful, one thing that is always impossible even after it's done, is to point to one moment in time or one task completed and say that that's the moment that all the work was over. What will happen is that a time will come when we look back and notice that not much more work is needed because of the fire damage.

Macron says five years, someone else even said three. While that won't be enough to really finish the job, it may be possible to partially re-open to the public in that time, much as the cathedral was open during the work that appears to have started the fire. There are other cathedrals that are open and in use with lots of temporary structural remediation visible. That may be Notre Dame's future for a few decades.


-- J.S.

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]

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Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2840173
04/17/19 11:11 AM
04/17/19 11:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 84
France
R
rolex67 Offline
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Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 84
France
When I saw Notre Dame burning ,I was thinking that everything would be lost paintings, statues, organs, stainded glasses,( and even the vaults ) all of our heritage and history ...

But as you mentioned above, most of the cathedral will be able to be restored.
The structure itself didn’t suffer too much.
The point is, of course, the definitive loss of the wooden framework made of oak
Coming from the middle age.
Something astonishing : the cock fitted on the top of the arrow that burned and collapsed has even been retrieved !

I hope ( and I’m sure ) thatt within 5 to 10 years, everything will be a bad souvenir.
like the cathedral of Reims that burned during the First World War or the cathedral of Chartres with its metallic framework. ( rebuilt after a fire in the middle of 19 th century ), a lot of important edifices suffered or were partially destroyed from bombing raids during the Second World War and now only minor “scares” testify of this past.
Thanks to donations, good organization and good wills the cathedral will retrieve its magnificence.

Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: rolex67] #2840175
04/17/19 11:17 AM
04/17/19 11:17 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,342
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,342
Originally Posted by rolex67
The point is, of course, the definitive loss of the wooden framework made of oak
Coming from the middle age.
Something astonishing : the cock fitted on the top of the arrow that burned and collapsed has even been retrieved !

like the cathedral of Reims that burned during the First World War or the cathedral of Chartres with its metallic framework. ( rebuilt after a fire in the middle of 19 th century ), a lot of important edifices suffered or were partially destroyed from bombing raids during the Second World War and now only minor “scares” testify of this past.

I can almost guarantee that some of the burned items will be memorialized in glass cases in the rebuilt cathedral, including some of the 400 year old burnt oak timbers.

Originally Posted by rolex67
Thanks to donations, good organization and good wills the cathedral will retrieve its magnificence.

The donations/pledges have reached a billion euros!


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2840204
04/17/19 12:54 PM
04/17/19 12:54 PM
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,259
Phoenix, Arizona
Carey Offline
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Carey  Offline
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,259
Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I hope the restoration doesn't take a century to complete.

Macron is setting a five year goal, however professional architects have already spoken out that is is unrealistic and the rebuilding could actually take decades.

I would think that the first order of business (aside from general clean up) would be to ensure that the remaining structure is STABLE, and that the damaged roof is covered so that the interior of the cathedral will be protected from the elements. I would also assume that the damaged scaffolding related to the renovation would need to be carefully dismantled and replaced.


Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai K-500 Upright
Kawai CA-65 Digital
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2840217
04/17/19 01:47 PM
04/17/19 01:47 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,525
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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Victoria, BC
One interesting aesthetic and historic observation:

The "forest" - that structure of oak beams above the vault and below the roof, that structure that supported the roof of Notre Dame Cathedral - was made from (hundreds?) of individual oak trees. There is no forest extant in France that has oaks of the size that were used to build the "forest." That means that the cathedral can not be restored to replicate its original condition and appearance which, from the standpoint of construction, may not be a bad move.

There is talk that non-flammable modern elements should be used in the reconstruction resulting in a changed appearance of the cathedral. This would have historical impact, but one that is not without precedent. When other significant, historical structures have been damaged, repair has often used techniques that were more modern than those used to construct the original.

A classic example of this in medieval architecture is Chartres Cathedral. The south spire of Chartres Cathedral was completed around 1160, and the cathedral was consecrated in 1260. The north spire that we see now, in a totally different style was completed in the early 16th century. It was rebuilt because the original north spire was destroyed by lightning in 1506. Not only aesthetics but also construction techniques had changed, and at Chartres we now see a cathedral that no longer resembles the original.

[Linked Image]

The same aesthetic fate may befall Notre Dame de Paris.

Regards,



BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: JohnSprung] #2840226
04/17/19 02:00 PM
04/17/19 02:00 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,525
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
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A better view of the two towers of Chartres Cathedral, which I took in 2014:

[Linked Image]

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: OT: Devastating News -- Notre Dame Fire [Re: BruceD] #2840232
04/17/19 02:35 PM
04/17/19 02:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,342
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,342
Originally Posted by BruceD
The "forest" - that structure of oak beams above the vault and below the roof, that structure that supported the roof of Notre Dame Cathedral - was made from (hundreds?) of individual oak trees.

1300. Each beam was made from a separate tree.

Originally Posted by BruceD
There is no forest extant in France that has oaks of the size that were used to build the "forest." That means that the cathedral can not be restored to replicate its original condition and appearance which, from the standpoint of construction, may not be a bad move.

That may be, but there are old growth oak forests in the Russian Far East (Mongolian Oak). Wonder if this tragedy can transcend politics enough to be able to solved that way.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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