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Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839450 04/15/19 09:53 AM
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Hmm. Thinking harder...
Actually I couldn't take the thought not going with hi-res midi cc#88 through pianoteq when I can have it.
Also the MK23 has this neat velocity knobs...
I really have to save up and try it, if it's not good, I'll send it back.
It can take time tho.

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Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839456 04/15/19 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Hmm. Thinking harder...
Actually I couldn't take the thought not going with hi-res midi cc#88 through pianoteq when I can have it.
Also the MK23 has this neat velocity knobs...
I really have to save up and try it, if it's not good, I'll send it back.
It can take time tho.

Why do you want hi-res MIDI for note-on/off velocity? For knobs, wheels and other controllers it may make some sense, but I wonder why you want it for note velocity...

If you want a good action then save for a N1X or NV10. And if your plan is to use VST only, then buy a N1.

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839468 04/15/19 10:48 AM
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For less than that price you can get a Kawai MP11SE, which has a better Kawai GrandFeel action (IMO only Hybrid actions from Kawai Novus NV10 and Yamahas AvantGrands are above that GrandFeel action and its update GrandFeel II), same portability, Kawai SK-EX samples....

Not much a fan of Fatar actions... and I have owned quite a few of them.

BEST REGARDS

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: Pedro Ruiz] #2839476 04/15/19 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Hmm. Thinking harder...
Actually I couldn't take the thought not going with hi-res midi cc#88 through pianoteq when I can have it.
Also the MK23 has this neat velocity knobs...
I really have to save up and try it, if it's not good, I'll send it back.
It can take time tho.

Why do you want hi-res MIDI for note-on/off velocity? For knobs, wheels and other controllers it may make some sense, but I wonder why you want it for note velocity...

If you want a good action then save for a N1X or NV10. And if your plan is to use VST only, then buy a N1.


Because higher midi res results in better pianoteq sound. http://www.flkeys.at/FLKFaqEng.html#4096
Originally Posted by Pedro Ruiz
For less than that price you can get a Kawai MP11SE, which has a better Kawai GrandFeel action (IMO only Hybrid actions from Kawai Novus NV10 and Yamahas AvantGrands are above that GrandFeel action and its update GrandFeel II), same portability, Kawai SK-EX samples....

Not much a fan of Fatar actions... and I have owned quite a few of them.

BEST REGARDS


The implementation of that same action with way different tech behind it is a different story.
If I dislike it, I still can send it back.

I dislike the action in all of the portable Kawai. The Grand Feel II in the CA 78 is just something in the middle. And I don't want a Hybrid Action. I want something portable.


Last edited by nicknameTaken; 04/15/19 11:08 AM.
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: Pedro Ruiz] #2839494 04/15/19 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Pedro Ruiz
For less than that price you can get a Kawai MP11SE, which has a better Kawai GrandFeel action (IMO only Hybrid actions from Kawai Novus NV10 and Yamahas AvantGrands are above that GrandFeel action and its update GrandFeel II), same portability, Kawai SK-EX samples....

Not much a fan of Fatar actions... and I have owned quite a few of them.

BEST REGARDS


Pedro, why did you retire from MLB? I was a huge fan of your famous ‘fast ball’.
Oh well, at least it’s good to know you play the piano, too. wink

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839496 04/15/19 11:38 AM
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It sounds to me as if you’re perhaps more in love with the idea of owning the “ultimate keyboard” than in actually playing the piano. A serious case of GAS?


Chris

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Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: Cheshire Chris] #2839500 04/15/19 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
It sounds to me as if you’re perhaps more in love with the idea of owning the “ultimate keyboard” than in actually playing the piano. A serious case of GAS?


Exactly. I want to find the best laugh

Well...
It's not only that. I don't want to have the feeling that the instrument is at fault.

Last edited by nicknameTaken; 04/15/19 11:55 AM.
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839512 04/15/19 11:58 AM
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I think you should make a weekend trip to Austria and try for yourself. Especially given cost of keyboard. The shops seem to be uber-skilled but we as players are all are very individual relating to actions and VIs.

As you know, Lachnit customizes the Fatar action and developed a custom optical sensor/software package. RavensWorks principally customizes the Kawai action.

Lachnit teardown and sensors - quick videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIkSVkfQU5k
https://youtu.be/QzjGfjB4fyc?t=19

Ravensworks VPC at Arizona factory bonus 60 second highlight photos/narrative
https://youtu.be/BUC0xU7OX54?t=708

Detailed Lachnit positive & critical observations from angelvoicemusic in the comments of this 2015 video. Some of these comments are for MIDI and computer "issues" so have nothing to do with Lachnit. He plays really well. He uses several other keyboards in more recent videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daQkQQdc6lo

"I could write a book... this synthogy american grand is good enough for me, also the pianoteq plug-in is ok. After a lot of research I found out, that it is very important, to have a controller keyboard with fast electronic, the USB/MIDI connetion. We have to factors: At first, if you play a chord, some DP/controllers have big difficulties to transport those notes in time (close together) to the software plugin. Recording them in a DAW you see the notes spread, dispersed. This makes it very unnatural. I feel a big difference to the real piano! Second thing is, even if you play one single note, when will the MIDI- information appear in the DAW? Some are really bad, some not so bad. The MK-22 is definately one of the best concerning this aspects, but it is in my opinion too expensive and the keys are too light, the fingers have not enough counterweight, or better say oscillation weight. It's a FATAR- Problem. I have the VPC-1... there's no Fatar inside, but it is too slow in both aspects, sorry.

My hot favoriteactually: Roland a-88. See how much fun some of the best players in the world have on demo videos for the new spectrasonics keyscape plugin.
I'm absolutley sure, they do not only enjoy the plugin, they feel good because the a-88 has very little delays... compared to most other kb. It is quite fast in both aspects. I measured many keyboards by recording them in logic. The a-88 keys are not as nice as the VPC-1 ones, but it is not expensive, not too heavy and it's timing closer to the natural pianos than most other controllers.

Our big problem is, that a real piano needs only 0,5ms, the dispers- aspect does simply not exist! And the big companies seem to have no idea about the problem. If they build a to some degree good controller keyboard, they seem like doing it inadvertently. The more players are aware of this inaccuracy and demand for better keyboards, the better! "

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839523 04/15/19 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
It sounds to me as if you’re perhaps more in love with the idea of owning the “ultimate keyboard” than in actually playing the piano. A serious case of GAS?


Exactly. I want to find the best laugh

Well...
It's not only that. I don't want to have the feeling that the instrument is at fault.


Fair enough, but you said in a previous post, IIRC, that you’ve only ever previously owned entry-level keyboards. Surely you can strike a happy medium between those and an ultra-expensive hand-crafted instrument and get something where the instrument won’t be a limiting factor in your playing without spending the earth? Think of all the time you could be spending actually playing rather than waiting years while you save up for this stratospherically-priced keyboard! Unless you’re a concert pianist, a decent slab piano such as a P-515, MP11SE, etc, is not going to be the limiting factor in your playing; your skill as a pianist will be.


Chris

Yamaha P-515, Yamaha Reface CP.
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: Pedro Ruiz] #2839534 04/15/19 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Pedro Ruiz
For less than that price you can get a Kawai MP11SE, which has a better Kawai GrandFeel action (IMO only Hybrid actions from Kawai Novus NV10 and Yamahas AvantGrands are above that GrandFeel action and its update GrandFeel II), same portability, Kawai SK-EX samples....

Not much a fan of Fatar actions... and I have owned quite a few of them.

BEST REGARDS

+1


Pianoteq / Kawai CL 35 & MP11 / Old 1920's Upright Zimmerman
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839535 04/15/19 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Hello,

as many of you know, there is a custom Keyboard existing with a Fatar TP40W action.
http://www.flkeys.at/OrderEng.html
It's regulated, adjusted and they made a new light-sensor technology.
It's price is quite high (3990 EUR) but it's handcrafted.

Now, I have done research in many forums and they suggest that the Fatar TP40W is outclassed by the Yamaha NW-GX/GH action and the Roland PHA50 action for example.

I'd wonder if this investment does objectively any sense for the aim of the best action in a digital slab.

As many of you guys may already know, I'm no fan of the Kawai actions in digital slabs, but I kinda like the GF II in the furniture ones.
But if I had the choice, I'd pick the P515 NWX action over the GF II (because preference).

Money is an object. I do not intend to spend any money when it's just not worth.

Best,

My friend who is professional musician (jazz and classical) have contact with Lachnit. He was in Vienna to try that DP (I think it was MK22) and the action for him was too light almost like semi weight. They said to him that for 1000 euros more on default price they will put harder action. This was last year and I dont know if something has changed in the meantime.

Last edited by slobajudge; 04/15/19 12:50 PM.
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: Cheshire Chris] #2839539 04/15/19 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
It sounds to me as if you’re perhaps more in love with the idea of owning the “ultimate keyboard” than in actually playing the piano. A serious case of GAS?


Exactly. I want to find the best laugh

Well...
It's not only that. I don't want to have the feeling that the instrument is at fault.


Fair enough, but you said in a previous post, IIRC, that you’ve only ever previously owned entry-level keyboards. Surely you can strike a happy medium between those and an ultra-expensive hand-crafted instrument and get something where the instrument won’t be a limiting factor in your playing without spending the earth? Think of all the time you could be spending actually playing rather than waiting years while you save up for this stratospherically-priced keyboard! Unless you’re a concert pianist, a decent slab piano such as a P-515, MP11SE, etc, is not going to be the limiting factor in your playing; your skill as a pianist will be.



That's mostly true..
But it bothers me that the P515 has no hi res midi... You are probably right. But one point - everyone benefits of a really good piano.
Having that Hi-Res Midi is about expression. From a logical POV, I certainly should not get it.
BUT, I also will never buy a car.
Think about it. I don't get a car, I don't get a house, why should I not spend my cash in something I love? A car is not a must nowadays. A house also is not.

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839543 04/15/19 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
...Because higher midi res results in better pianoteq sound. http://www.flkeys.at/FLKFaqEng.html#4096

Are you basing your opinion on the manufacturer's statement or have you actually tested hi-res MIDI? Because I have controlled PianoTeq for nearly two years using a keyboard that outputs hi-res MIDI (Casio PX-560) and was unable to detect any differences using A/B testing. But the problem may be me...

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: slobajudge] #2839548 04/15/19 01:08 PM
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Quote

My friend who is professional musician (jazz and classical) have contact with Lachnit. He was in Vienna to try that DP (I think it was MK22) and the action for him was too light almost like semi weight. They said to him that for 1000 euros more on default price they will put harder action. This was last year and I dont know if something has changed in the meantime.


I do believe you, because it makes sense. ( I thought they also changed the weightage at least, because I played Nords with the same action and it was too light)
The new MK23 has just a new circuitry. Well, I think in that case I'll continue on pursuing the P515.


Quote

Are you basing your opinion on the manufacturer's statement or have you actually tested hi-res MIDI? Because I have controlled PianoTeq for nearly two years using a keyboard that outputs hi-res MIDI (Casio PX-560) and was unable to detect any differences using A/B testing. But the problem may be me...


No, not at all. I thought what the manufacturer said was true...
If it is not, there won't be any need. If it does not make any difference.

Last edited by nicknameTaken; 04/15/19 01:12 PM.
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839553 04/15/19 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
That's mostly true..
But it bothers me that the P515 has no hi res midi... You are probably right. But one point - everyone benefits of a really good piano.
Having that Hi-Res Midi is about expression.


I honestly don’t think it’s humanly possible to control the force you exert on a key to better than 1 part in 127 (the range of standard MIDI velocities) and even if you could, you wouldn’t be able to hear the difference. To be honest, this sounds like a marketing ploy, not something that makes any difference in the real world.


Chris

Yamaha P-515, Yamaha Reface CP.
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: Cheshire Chris] #2839555 04/15/19 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
I honestly don’t think it’s humanly possible to control the force you exert on a key to better than 1 part in 127 (the range of standard MIDI velocities) and even if you could, you wouldn’t be able to hear the difference.

Dr. John Mortensen has said similarly.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: Pete14] #2839557 04/15/19 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Originally Posted by Pedro Ruiz
For less than that price you can get a Kawai MP11SE, which has a better Kawai GrandFeel action (IMO only Hybrid actions from Kawai Novus NV10 and Yamahas AvantGrands are above that GrandFeel action and its update GrandFeel II), same portability, Kawai SK-EX samples....

Not much a fan of Fatar actions... and I have owned quite a few of them.

BEST REGARDS


Pedro, why did you retire from MLB? I was a huge fan of your famous ‘fast ball’.
Oh well, at least it’s good to know you play the piano, too. wink

Seems that my name and surname is more extended that I know of...
In my country Spain, there is a journalist also named Pedro Ruiz...
And this is the first time I heard of a baseball player named the same...

...take note, this are the first steps for world domination smile

BEST REGARDS

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839563 04/15/19 02:06 PM
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Thanks for all the answers. I really love the discussion. And have yet learned more again. I don't ever wanna stop filling my mind with information laugh

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839650 04/15/19 06:03 PM
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I wish those videos were available with English translation. I couldn't understand what was said.

If anyone has a chance to try one of these I'd like to hear about it. (I don't expect to see one here in the States for quite a while.)

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: MacMacMac] #2839745 04/16/19 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I wish those videos were available with English translation. I couldn't understand what was said.

If anyone has a chance to try one of these I'd like to hear about it. (I don't expect to see one here in the States for quite a while.)


Well everything that was said is also in the FAQ.
By the way - I mailed them...
Quote

all the theorizing and all the guesswork have little sense from a certain level. Ultimately, the only thing that counts is your own playing experience.
If you are ever in Vienna, come and play. Either to the piano makers Burggasse or we can make an appointment.

Our patented light sensor technology enables a unique playing feeling on the market... and the playing characteristics of our handcrafted keyboard hardly have anything to do with a Werks TP40w with mechanical silicone contacts made of fatar cardboard.


Last edited by nicknameTaken; 04/16/19 03:00 AM.
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