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Objective view to Lachnit MK23 #2839321
04/15/19 04:42 AM
04/15/19 04:42 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 185
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nicknameTaken Offline OP
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nicknameTaken  Offline OP
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Hello,

as many of you know, there is a custom Keyboard existing with a Fatar TP40W action.
http://www.flkeys.at/OrderEng.html
It's regulated, adjusted and they made a new light-sensor technology.
It's price is quite high (3990 EUR) but it's handcrafted.

Now, I have done research in many forums and they suggest that the Fatar TP40W is outclassed by the Yamaha NW-GX/GH action and the Roland PHA50 action for example.

I'd wonder if this investment does objectively any sense for the aim of the best action in a digital slab.

As many of you guys may already know, I'm no fan of the Kawai actions in digital slabs, but I kinda like the GF II in the furniture ones.
But if I had the choice, I'd pick the P515 NWX action over the GF II (because preference).

Money is an object. I do not intend to spend any money when it's just not worth.

Best,

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Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839325
04/15/19 04:51 AM
04/15/19 04:51 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,717
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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MacMacMac  Offline
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Have you tried this piano for yourself?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I have done research in many forums and they suggest that the Fatar TP40W is outclassed by the Yamaha NW-GX/GH action and the Roland PHA50 action for example.
It seems that you've read the opinions of others. But do those opinions matter?
In my view such opinions are nothing more than a suggestion, waiting for my own evaluation.
I've not tried this piano. Have you?

In the end this could be your piano ... and your opinion is the only one that matters.

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839328
04/15/19 04:55 AM
04/15/19 04:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,931
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content

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Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,931
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Hello,

as many of you know, there is a custom Keyboard existing with a Fatar TP40W action.
http://www.flkeys.at/OrderEng.html
It's regulated, adjusted and they made a new light-sensor technology.
It's price is quite high (3990 EUR) but it's handcrafted.

Now, I have done research in many forums and they suggest that the Fatar TP40W is outclassed by the Yamaha NW-GX/GH action and the Roland PHA50 action for example.

I'd wonder if this investment does objectively any sense for the aim of the best action in a digital slab.

As many of you guys may already know, I'm no fan of the Kawai actions in digital slabs, but I kinda like the GF II in the furniture ones.
But if I had the choice, I'd pick the P515 NWX action over the GF II (because preference).

Money is an object. I do not intend to spend any money when it's just not worth.

Best,

If you are willing to spend that level of money, have you considered a Ravenworks VPC1?

I was considering it earlier, but the only way to test it seems to be to visit their facility in Scottsdale, Arizona. And for this amount of money, It didn't make sense to me given there were later actions such as the Grand Feel I and Grand Feel II, even without considering the hybrids.

Still, there are a number of videos online and there is at least one current advanced pianist on PW who has posted before that he personally has tried this custom VPC1 and then said words of high praise for it. If interested in exploring this more, I assume you could PM him for further comments.

I also have some remarks I exchanged with the owner of Ravenworks via email which I could share with you via PM, if you were interested in pursuing this.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: MacMacMac] #2839329
04/15/19 04:56 AM
04/15/19 04:56 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 185
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nicknameTaken Offline OP
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Posts: 185
Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Have you tried this piano for yourself?
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
I have done research in many forums and they suggest that the Fatar TP40W is outclassed by the Yamaha NW-GX/GH action and the Roland PHA50 action for example.
It seems that you've read the opinions of others. But do those opinions matter?
In my view such opinions are nothing more than a suggestion, waiting for my own evaluation.
I've not tried this piano. Have you?

In the end this could be your piano ... and your opinion is the only one that matters.


You are so right. Well, I go very far to get the utmost best for my use.
I have not tried it as well. But speaking with the Fa. Lachnit, they answered: the price won't raise if sent to Germany.
I thought it would mean 20% more.

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839331
04/15/19 04:57 AM
04/15/19 04:57 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 374
Cheshire, UK
Cheshire Chris Offline
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Cheshire Chris  Offline
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Posts: 374
Cheshire, UK
It would have to be a heck of a lot better than the P-515 to justify well over 3x the price. But as Mac says, your view is the one that matters! To my mind, though, you really can't go wrong with a P-515. Good keyboard action, nice voices, and versatile connectivity options.

EDIT: I've just noticed that the forum software edits posts. I typed H-E-L-L, not "heck" smile.


Last edited by Cheshire Chris; 04/15/19 04:58 AM.

Chris

Yamaha P-515, Yamaha Reface CP.
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2839333
04/15/19 05:00 AM
04/15/19 05:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 185
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nicknameTaken Offline OP
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nicknameTaken  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 185
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Hello,

as many of you know, there is a custom Keyboard existing with a Fatar TP40W action.
http://www.flkeys.at/OrderEng.html
It's regulated, adjusted and they made a new light-sensor technology.
It's price is quite high (3990 EUR) but it's handcrafted.

Now, I have done research in many forums and they suggest that the Fatar TP40W is outclassed by the Yamaha NW-GX/GH action and the Roland PHA50 action for example.

I'd wonder if this investment does objectively any sense for the aim of the best action in a digital slab.

As many of you guys may already know, I'm no fan of the Kawai actions in digital slabs, but I kinda like the GF II in the furniture ones.
But if I had the choice, I'd pick the P515 NWX action over the GF II (because preference).

Money is an object. I do not intend to spend any money when it's just not worth.

Best,

If you are willing to spend that level of money, have you considered a Ravenworks VPC1?

I was considering it earlier, but the only way to test it seems to be to visit their facility in Scottsdale, Arizona. And for this amount of money, It didn't make sense to me given there were later actions such as the Grand Feel I and Grand Feel II, even without considering the hybrids.

Still, there are a number of videos online and there is at least one current advanced pianist on PW who personally has tried this custom VPC1 and had words of high praise for it, and if interested, I assume you could PM him for further comments.


Importing from USA comes at a high cost.

The already very expensive VPC1 would be with estimated 1200 eur extra cost.

Not to mention that I don't like the VPC1 per se because it's a bit 'too heavy' even among acoustics.

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839335
04/15/19 05:04 AM
04/15/19 05:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,931
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content

7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,931
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Not to mention that I don't like the VPC1 per se because it's a bit 'too heavy' even among acoustics.

Actually this is one of the things which he can change and he can customize. He essentially spends 40 hours custom-regulating each key as if the VPC1 is an acoustic piano. (In fact - just musing aloud here - is 40 hours even more than regulation of a real grand piano takes?) He can essentially make the action as heavy or as light as you want, you'd just have to ask him.

BTW, he is the master piano technician that created the Ravenscroft grand.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2839337
04/15/19 05:10 AM
04/15/19 05:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 185
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nicknameTaken Offline OP
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nicknameTaken  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 185
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Not to mention that I don't like the VPC1 per se because it's a bit 'too heavy' even among acoustics.

Actually this is one of the things which he can change and he can customize. He essentially spends 40 hours custom-regulating each key as if the VPC1 is an acoustic piano. (In fact - just musing aloud here - is 40 hours even more than regulation of a real grand piano takes?)


When I mailed Ravenworks, they told me

> I can't really compare the performance of our controllers with much else on
> the market than a stock VPC1. We are essentially refining a production
> instrument and setting the regulation perimeters that we can control to
> match the action of our Ravenscroft 275 Grand Piano as closely as possible.
> My advice to people, especially to those who are unable to come to the US,
> is to find their local Kawai dealer and try a stock VPC1. Chances are
> pretty good that if you like the way that they feel, then they will
> appreciate our controllers as well.

Addition

> our Modified VPC1 weighs around 80 lbs or 36.2 kg.

Last edited by nicknameTaken; 04/15/19 05:11 AM.
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839338
04/15/19 05:14 AM
04/15/19 05:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,931
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content

7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,931
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Actually this is one of the things which he can change and he can customize. He essentially spends 40 hours custom-regulating each key as if the VPC1 is an acoustic piano. (In fact - just musing aloud here - is 40 hours even more than regulation of a real grand piano takes?)

When I mailed Ravenworks, they told me

> I can't really compare the performance of our controllers with much else on
> the market than a stock VPC1. We are essentially refining a production
> instrument and setting the regulation perimeters that we can control to
> match the action of our Ravenscroft 275 Grand Piano as closely as possible.
> My advice to people, especially to those who are unable to come to the US,
> is to find their local Kawai dealer and try a stock VPC1. Chances are
> pretty good that if you like the way that they feel, then they will
> appreciate our controllers as well.

Addition

> our Modified VPC1 weighs around 80 lbs or 36.2 kg.


I had no idea that the Ravencroft 275 has almost exactly the same weight of keys as the VPC1. Thats for that info. Wow, that changes my perspective. That would also be unacceptable for me. Good I am looking at N1X and NV10 now, instead.

Yes, he seems less flexible in his email to you than when I emailed him on customizing key weight back in December. Perhaps customizing is just too much trouble.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839341
04/15/19 05:19 AM
04/15/19 05:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 185
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nicknameTaken Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 185
It reads like:

They matching the VPC 1 to feel similar to the Ravenworks 275 Grand Piano.
They say, if you like the stock VPC 1, chances are that you like the custom VPC1.
That does imply:

The stock VPC 1 is already somewhat similar to the http://www.ravenscroftpianos.com/275-features.php Ravenworks 275 Grand Piano, yet not close enough.

They still use the original VPC-1 action, with all it's drawbacks..

Here is a citate from the website, they do:

Sizing of Key Pin & Balance Rail Bushings
Addition of Quality Piano Key-End Felt
Custom Key Dip
Squaring, Spacing, & Leveling of Keys
Proprietary Precision Friction Analysis & Weight Placement Determination
Proprietary Bismuth Key Weighting Procedure
The Manufacturing of Our Bismuth Weights
Key Weight Installation Procedure


Last edited by nicknameTaken; 04/15/19 05:24 AM.
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839343
04/15/19 05:27 AM
04/15/19 05:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 374
Cheshire, UK
Cheshire Chris Offline
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Cheshire Chris  Offline
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Posts: 374
Cheshire, UK
You're very much into the area of diminishing returns when entering this pricing area, I think. Are you a sufficiently accomplished pianist that you'll be able to appreciate the benefits of a hand-crafted keyboard? I'm not, and I very much doubt that I ever will be.


Chris

Yamaha P-515, Yamaha Reface CP.
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: Cheshire Chris] #2839345
04/15/19 05:31 AM
04/15/19 05:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 185
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nicknameTaken Offline OP
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Posts: 185
Originally Posted by Cheshire Chris
You're very much into the area of diminishing returns when entering this pricing area, I think. Are you a sufficiently accomplished pianist that you'll be able to appreciate the benefits of a hand-crafted keyboard? I'm not, and I very much doubt that I ever will be.


You are probably right. I did face this 'issue' in another area.
Headphones.

I own a pair of DT 990 pro with a O2 ODAC Headphone DAC amp and still, the Audeze LCD-2 Classic for a lot of more cash does not feel superior enough to justify the price. It's also too heavy for my head.
On the DT 990 Pro, I have to change the earpads every once in a while, since I wear it almost 24/7.

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839346
04/15/19 05:34 AM
04/15/19 05:34 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,931
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content

7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,931
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
It reads like:

They matching the VPC 1 to feel similar to the Ravenworks 275 Grand Piano.
They say, if you like the stock VPC 1, chances are that you like the custom VPC1.
That does imply:

The stock VPC 1 is already somewhat similar to the http://www.ravenscroftpianos.com/275-features.php Ravenworks 275 Grand Piano, yet not close enough.

They still use the original VPC-1 action, with all it's drawbacks..

Here is a citate from the website, they do:

Sizing of Key Pin & Balance Rail Bushings
Addition of Quality Piano Key-End Felt
Custom Key Dip
Squaring, Spacing, & Leveling of Keys
Proprietary Precision Friction Analysis & Weight Placement Determination
Proprietary Bismuth Key Weighting Procedure
The Manufacturing of Our Bismuth Weights
Key Weight Installation Procedure


Thanks again. In any case, reading about Friedrich Lachnit, it seems his qualifications are the same or similar as in the case of the Ravenworks VPC1 owner, which is a plus, in view. Such modifications should only be made by an expert piano technician.

Have you tried a Fatar TP40W keyboard action, such as in a Studiologics controller? Or in a Nord? If not yet, it seems like you should try that out just in case the Lachnit process also doesn't change the character of the keybed from the original.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2839347
04/15/19 05:40 AM
04/15/19 05:40 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 185
N
nicknameTaken Offline OP
Full Member
nicknameTaken  Offline OP
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Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 185
Quote

Have you tried a Fatar TP40W keyboard action, such as in a Studiologics controller? Or in a Nord? If not yet, it seems like you should try that out just in case the Lachnit process also doesn't change the character of the keybed from the original.


Thanks for the info. I tried the Nord Electro 3 two weeks ago and it was waaaaaaaaaay to light for me. It was comparable to a synth action.
I'm not sure if the Nord Electro 3 is in any way comparable to the Fatar TP40W action

I think I've tested two different Nord instruments that time, and both were not heavy enough.

Last edited by nicknameTaken; 04/15/19 05:47 AM.
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839353
04/15/19 05:53 AM
04/15/19 05:53 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,931
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content

7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,931
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Quote

Have you tried a Fatar TP40W keyboard action, such as in a Studiologics controller? Or in a Nord? If not yet, it seems like you should try that out just in case the Lachnit process also doesn't change the character of the keybed from the original.


Thanks for the info. I tried the Nord Electro 3 two weeks ago and it was waaaaaaaaaay to light for me. It was comparable to a synth action.
I'm not sure if the Nord Electro 3 is in any way comparable to the Fatar TP40W action

Just purely googling, I see the Nord Electro 3 HP uses the Fatar TP/100. It seems I was wrong about the TP/40WOOD being in a Nord. The Nord Piano 2 uses something called the "TP40GH wood," which could be different.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839375
04/15/19 06:49 AM
04/15/19 06:49 AM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 185
N
nicknameTaken Offline OP
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nicknameTaken  Offline OP
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Posts: 185
Well. I think I just go with the Yamaha P515 set which comes with the triple pedal and the stand.
Then using it with PianoTeq.

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839377
04/15/19 06:55 AM
04/15/19 06:55 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,931
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content

7000 Post Club Member

Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,931
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
Well. I think I just go with the Yamaha P515 set which comes with the triple pedal and the stand.
Then using it with PianoTeq.

Could be a good choice. If you are going to use Pianoteq, you might also consider using a velocity editor add-on. MacMacMac mentioned a free one in another thread. I am not using one yet, but I definitely could use one myself and probably will depending on what keyboard I upgrade to and if I end up using Pianoteq with it as I do now with my current DP.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839401
04/15/19 07:49 AM
04/15/19 07:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,905
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Pete14 Online content
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+1 on the P-515\Pianoteq combo. It is a phenomenal setup. The stand is solid enough to prevent any significant wobbling, and the pedal board will never move under your feet.

Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839407
04/15/19 08:06 AM
04/15/19 08:06 AM
Joined: Mar 2019
Posts: 374
Cheshire, UK
Cheshire Chris Offline
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Posts: 374
Cheshire, UK
Good choice - I find the P-515 to be very good indeed. I'd just try the keyboard on its own first, before spending more on VSTs. I think personally that the internal voices are very good indeed.


Chris

Yamaha P-515, Yamaha Reface CP.
Re: Objective view to Lachnit MK23 [Re: nicknameTaken] #2839445
04/15/19 09:35 AM
04/15/19 09:35 AM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 1,181
Europe
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arc7urus Offline
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Joined: Oct 2017
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Europe
Originally Posted by nicknameTaken
It reads like:

They matching the VPC 1 to feel similar to the Ravenworks 275 Grand Piano.
They say, if you like the stock VPC 1, chances are that you like the custom VPC1.
That does imply:

The stock VPC 1 is already somewhat similar to the http://www.ravenscroftpianos.com/275-features.php Ravenworks 275 Grand Piano, yet not close enough.

They still use the original VPC-1 action, with all it's drawbacks..

Here is a citate from the website, they do:

Sizing of Key Pin & Balance Rail Bushings
Addition of Quality Piano Key-End Felt
Custom Key Dip
Squaring, Spacing, & Leveling of Keys
Proprietary Precision Friction Analysis & Weight Placement Determination
Proprietary Bismuth Key Weighting Procedure
The Manufacturing of Our Bismuth Weights
Key Weight Installation Procedure


I wonder if Ravenworks managed to remove the "soft" or "mushy" feeling that happens when bottoming out a key. This is one of the characteristics of the unmodified GF-I and GF-II and is a result of the "hammer" pressing against the hammer felt/damping material. Replacing the felts damping the key will not change this.

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