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Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes
Gesualdo #2839211 04/14/19 08:31 PM
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I have had success lessening or eliminating such sounds by needling the hammers from the side under the strike point. The idea is to soften the center of the hammer felt so the hammer stays against the string long enough that the string is not excited in a higher mode. (Think of a jump rope that you whip around really fast so that the center stays close to motionless while the halves are arced: that is the second mode of the motion of the rope. The strings can do that, especially in the bass, because the vibration of the string is so slow.)


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Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes
Gesualdo #2839215 04/14/19 08:48 PM
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It is possible that a PitchLock string coupler will effectively mask the problem.

Pwg

Last edited by P W Grey; 04/14/19 08:48 PM.

Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes
Gesualdo #2839221 04/14/19 09:10 PM
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Interesting that you said that it didn't ring until the referred tech worked on it. You said he leveled strings and did some spot voicing and mentioned the high humidity. This made me think that the dampers were formed to the unleveled strings, and when he leveled them, not all strings of the note mute at the same time anymore. Leaving one to ring. Also, if he did any sanding on the hammers, maybe he un-mated them to the strings. Anyways, just my initial reaction.
-chris-

Last edited by Chernobieff Piano; 04/14/19 09:11 PM.

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Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes
Gesualdo #2839230 04/14/19 09:50 PM
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My immediate thought went to the Baldwin I just dealt with last week. It was F2 on this one, a distinct C# (as with yours) was ringing out of the F2, due to the damper bleeding. So, I agree with Chris on this- it does sound like a damper killing the initial partials, but allowing the high to ring. Perhaps the damper may have gotten hard over time-or as Christ says, the tech may have tweaked things, and left the damper bleeding- perhaps not noticing?)...

Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes
Gesualdo #2839235 04/14/19 10:25 PM
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Thanks so much for these ideas. I will pass them on.

The tuner did leave her something to insert between strings ?? but she was finding no effect. I thought it was some felt?? I will ask if it was a Pitch Coupler, but I don't think so.

I found the PitchCoupler site, and sent her that. I am fairly sure the bass string is a wrapped single string, not a double.

Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes
Gesualdo #2839395 04/15/19 08:43 AM
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Agree with the above scenario. In addition, IF it had been quite a while since the PREVIOUS tuning on it, it may have required a pitch raise which could alter the specific positioning of the damper on the string, possibly exacerbating things.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes
P W Grey #2839463 04/15/19 11:38 AM
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Thanks again, PWG. I have checked, and the felt was a holdover found in the piano after its last tuning! I think it was just some shredded felt from a strip used for isolating strings during tuning.

The piano was only slightly flat - we had checked with a Korg tuner, but a few notes were more off than others. (In my youth I used to be able to tune my violin by memory to the slightly different A4s of each of the pianos I played with regularly, beforehand! I drove everyone nuts with my skill, although we all found it useful at orchestra rehearsals.) (I still prefer tuning by ear, and find the electronic tuner just a nuisance. I can adjust for equal temperament OK, but still tune the violin properly in perfect fifths. I do not tune pianos, far too intricate in comparison.)

Nonetheless, maybe damper movement is the culprit, although we do not see one obviously out of place, nor it seems did the tuner when he returned.

My friend is keeping all of the suggestions for her tuner to consider, and plans to wait a little longer to see if further dehumidification solves the issue. He suggested that the dehumidifier be placed under the piano, not slightly to the left of where a player sits, to see if the air movement might be different.

Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes
Gesualdo #2839617 04/15/19 05:22 PM
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I caution you against putting either a dehumidifier or humidifier directly under the piano. It will direct a concentration in places you don't want. Better to be patient and let it do it's work outside the piano.

Most people would be flabbergasted to see how small a movement in a damper can make either a good or bad change. 1/64" (even less sometimes) can cause or completely dampen certain partials. I demonstrated this to a young new technician recently in my shop. He was looking over the rebuild in progress on a 100 yr old Steinway O. I had just gotten the dampers on and operating fairly well. One note in the tenor had a prominent high ringing partial which he picked out and asked about it. I had not noticed it yet till he pointed it out. In the process of my "lecture" on partials and nodes...I noticed that the damper on that note was visibly out of line (between 1/64" and 1/32" - not much) with all the other dampers and pointed it out to him. I said: "That MIGHT just be the problem, let's find out". I made one bend below to move it into line and one bend above to seat the damper and played the note...GONE! He was astonished at how just that little bit could take care of it.

What was happening was that the very edge of the damper felt was resting directly on a nodal point which acted like a finger on a harmonic on your violin. Moved it off the node...problem solved. Correct position had been designed into the piano. This one was out of place, therefore behaving badly.

Not saying this is THE problem your friend is faced with. Simply to show that dampers can be VERY sensitive to a change. And dampers that have had time to conform to their respective strings are like some people set in their ways. Try to change them and they don't like it. 😁

There are ways of diagnosing it and it PROBABLY is in the skill set of your current tech. He may simply have not noticed it along with everything else that day.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes
P W Grey #2839688 04/15/19 08:45 PM
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Pwg, thanks further. I will pass on your suggestion on the dehumidifier, and the dampers.

My friend did like the tuner, who came recommended by mine, and does seem very competent.

Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes
Gesualdo #2840264 04/17/19 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Gesualdo
I have a piano that is beautiful in many regards (A Yamaha S400B) but for some reason when doing tremolos in the bass(for instance the low C2 and C3, as in the Beethoven Pathetique), I get a ringing high overtone that drives me crazy. When hit loudly as a solo note, no problem on either note!. What can be done about this?


Do you have the sustain pedal pressed down when playing that section? Re-striking vibrating strings with the dampers lifted can emphasize the odd-order harmonics that may be unpleasant or metallic. Hammers are usually located at 1/7 or 1/9 of the speaking length in order to suppress undesired odd-order harmonics, but also causes such harmonics to be emphasized when re-striking. While some voicing work can be performed to lessen the effect, it's also nature of the scale design.

I'd only use a tiny bit of the sustain pedal in that section, if at all.

Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes
Gesualdo #2840265 04/17/19 05:26 PM
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And maladjusted or deteriorating damper can certainly create undesirable harmonics.

Re: Really loud overtone ringing on bass notes
Ken Iisaka #2840280 04/17/19 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Iisaka
Originally Posted by Gesualdo
I have a piano that is beautiful in many regards (A Yamaha S400B) but for some reason when doing tremolos in the bass(for instance the low C2 and C3, as in the Beethoven Pathetique), I get a ringing high overtone that drives me crazy. When hit loudly as a solo note, no problem on either note!. What can be done about this?


Do you have the sustain pedal pressed down when playing that section? Re-striking vibrating strings with the dampers lifted can emphasize the odd-order harmonics that may be unpleasant or metallic. Hammers are usually located at 1/7 or 1/9 of the speaking length in order to suppress undesired odd-order harmonics, but also causes such harmonics to be emphasized when re-striking. While some voicing work can be performed to lessen the effect, it's also nature of the scale design.

I'd only use a tiny bit of the sustain pedal in that section, if at all.



When that piece was written, pianos did not have these kind of issues. Tension and volume was much lower and cases were lightly built. If you played it on a historically accurate instrument, tuned historically correct, you would not hear this.

Pwg


Peter W. Grey, RPT
New Hampshire Seacoast
www.seacoastpianodoctor.com
pianodoctor57@gmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK0T7_I_nV8
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