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So where are the big grands coming from? #2838040
04/11/19 12:37 PM
04/11/19 12:37 PM
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iLaw Offline OP
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Those of you who have known me for a while know that when I'm not playing piano I'm an attorney practicing customs law and international trade regulation. Today I had to update my account that gets me access to import trade data from the government, and I needed to make sure it was working, so as my donation to the forum (as I have done in the past) I will answer the question on everyone's mind:

How many pianos longer than 195.58 cm (6' 5") have been imported into the U.S. so far this year, and what countries did they come from? Here you go ...

Japan 15
Austria 11
China 10
Italy 9
Estonia 5
Germany 5
Poland 4
Indonesia 2

Sorting by value would, of course, shuffle these rankings. Only four months of data, so the results depend heavily on who shipped what when. I should have gone back and done a 2018 complete year, but that'll have to wait for another time. Gotta get back to work.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Larry.

Last edited by iLaw; 04/11/19 12:46 PM. Reason: Some folks don't think in centimeters
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Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: iLaw] #2838047
04/11/19 12:53 PM
04/11/19 12:53 PM
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That seems unbelievable small to me. Between Yamaha and Kawai only 15 grands larger than 6'5" were imported to the U.S. so far? If that rate continued that's only about 240 pianos that size per year. I would have guessed that Yamaha alone would have imported 500-1000 per year, not that I have anything to base that number on.

Can any dealers verify that these figures seem reasonable?

Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: pianoloverus] #2838053
04/11/19 01:08 PM
04/11/19 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
That seems unbelievable small to me. Between Yamaha and Kawai only 15 grands larger than 6'5" were imported to the U.S. so far?


+1. It makes me wonder if there's any seasonality involved. Do concert venues have an off-season in the summer when they do their capex? Do residential buyers wait for good weather? So, another question for the dealers: Is your business at all seasonal? If so, when are the busy and slow times of year?


-- J.S.

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Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: iLaw] #2838058
04/11/19 01:17 PM
04/11/19 01:17 PM
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Do these (seemingly low) statistics include dealer imports, or do these figures indicate private, individual imports only?

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: pianoloverus] #2838060
04/11/19 01:19 PM
04/11/19 01:19 PM
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iLaw Offline OP
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OK, I had to know, and pianoloverus does too. So here are the numbers reported for all of 2018. Note that a few of the listings remind us that sometimes people do not correctly report the country of origin:

Japan 188
Italy 86
Germany 72
Poland 62
China 47
Austria 30
Czech Rep 12
Estonia 12
Indonesia 9
Spain 9
Gabon 6
UK 3
Hong Kong 1
Total 537

Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: BruceD] #2838061
04/11/19 01:21 PM
04/11/19 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Do these (seemingly low) statistics include dealer imports, or do these figures indicate private, individual imports only?

All imports.

Larry.

Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: iLaw] #2838073
04/11/19 01:59 PM
04/11/19 01:59 PM
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New York City
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Originally Posted by iLaw
OK, I had to know, and pianoloverus does too. So here are the numbers reported for all of 2018. Note that a few of the listings remind us that sometimes people do not correctly report the country of origin:

Japan 188
Italy 86
Germany 72
Poland 62
China 47
Austria 30
Czech Rep 12
Estonia 12
Indonesia 9
Spain 9
Gabon 6
UK 3
Hong Kong 1
Total 537

Thanks, is it too much trouble to get the figures for all size grands for 2018?

Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: iLaw] #2838089
04/11/19 02:48 PM
04/11/19 02:48 PM
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Denmark
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Poland? UK?

This must include restored pianos, right?


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28, Pianoteq 6.5 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2), Garritan CFX Lite
Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: QuasiUnaFantasia] #2838093
04/11/19 03:10 PM
04/11/19 03:10 PM
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iLaw Offline OP
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Poland? UK?

This must include restored pianos, right?

That's my assumption as well. There's actually a separate subcategory for used grands, but I can see how there could be a difference of opinion as to whether a rebuilt piano should be categorized as a new or a used piano. I don't have a piano manufacturer, rebuilder, or importer as a client, so I've never had to look further into the question.

Larry.

Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: iLaw] #2838095
04/11/19 03:25 PM
04/11/19 03:25 PM
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Some thoughts:

1. I think vast majority of grands sold in the US are less than 6.5". A dealer near me received many Samick and Weber pianos (from Korea), but none of them would appear on this list.

2. Who knew Fazioli's were so popular in the US?

3. Poland? Maybe these are the rumored "Polish restored Steinways" mentioned here at PW.


Last edited by redfish1901; 04/11/19 03:25 PM.
Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: pianoloverus] #2838098
04/11/19 03:29 PM
04/11/19 03:29 PM
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iLaw Offline OP
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Thanks, is it too much trouble to get the figures for all size grands for 2018?

One number per country isn't too much trouble:

Japan 3,159
Indonesia 3,044
China 2,323
Germany 442
Italy 211
Estonia 80
Poland 62
Austria 47
Czech Rep 30
Hong Kong 15
UK 11
Spain 9
Gabon 6
France 4
Luxembourg 2
Mexico 1
Total 9,446

The statistics are actually kept by size category:

less than 152.40 (5' 0")
152.40 or more but less than 167.64 (5' 6")
167.64 or more but less than 180.34 (5' 11")
180.34 or more but less than 195.58 (6' 5")
195.58 or more

But that's enough for today!

Larry.

Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: iLaw] #2838108
04/11/19 03:42 PM
04/11/19 03:42 PM
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Who knew Indonesian pianos were so popular. Listening to some members here, Indonesian pianos are no better than the worst Chinese. Guess not!

And clearly Boesendorfer sells more large pianos than small ones. Wonder why smile

Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: redfish1901] #2838115
04/11/19 04:01 PM
04/11/19 04:01 PM
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Germany
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Originally Posted by redfish1901
Some thoughts:

1. I think vast majority of grands sold in the US are less than 6.5". A dealer near me received many Samick and Weber pianos (from Korea), but none of them would appear on this list.
No Korean pianos on the numbers provided by iLaw either. Weird.

Originally Posted by redfish1901
2. Who knew Fazioli's were so popular in the US?
Schulze Pollmann is Italian too.

Originally Posted by redfish1901
3. Poland? Maybe these are the rumored "Polish restored Steinways" mentioned here at PW.
Or Irmlers. Irmler is to Blรผthner what Hoffmann is to Bechstein: A cheaper brand made in eastern central Europe. Irmlers are made in Poland AFAIK.

Last edited by patH; 04/11/19 04:02 PM.

My grand piano is a Yamaha C2 SG.
Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: iLaw] #2838118
04/11/19 04:07 PM
04/11/19 04:07 PM
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How are Hamburg Steinways treatened in that statistic?

1- Import, because coming from Germany?

2- US, because coming from an US comp?


Pls excuse any bad english.

Cent. D Sept 1877

Working on Berceuse op.57
Nocturnes op. 9-1,3 15-1,2,3 27-2 32-1,2
Going Home (Mark Knopfler)

There is a shy hope to perform every nocturne at any fine night coming.

The invention of finest music prov. ended on Oct 17, 1849.
Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: BerndAB] #2838127
04/11/19 04:33 PM
04/11/19 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BerndAB
How are Hamburg Steinways treatened in that statistic?

1- Import, because coming from Germany?

2- US, because coming from an US comp?


I would imagine it would be a German import.

AFAIK, there are very few Hamburg Steinways in the US.

Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: iLaw] #2838129
04/11/19 04:36 PM
04/11/19 04:36 PM
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What would be a rough estimate for the average price of a 6'5"+ piano? I'd guess somewhere in the $50,000-$100,000 range. Depending on where it lands that's somewhere between 1/2 billion and a billion dollars of piano. Not too shabby.


๐’€๐’‚๐’Ž๐’‚๐’‰๐’‚ ๐‘จ๐’—๐’‚๐’๐’• ๐‘ฎ๐’“๐’‚๐’๐’… ๐‘ต1๐‘ฟ
Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: patH] #2838130
04/11/19 04:39 PM
04/11/19 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by patH
Schulze Pollmann is Italian too.

Or Irmlers. Irmler is to Blรผthner what Hoffmann is to Bechstein: A cheaper brand made in eastern central Europe. Irmlers are made in Poland AFAIK.


I think Schulze Pollman and Irmler are pretty rare in the states, at least where I am. During my shopping, I must have seen more than a hundred pianos, and zero Schulz Pollman and Irmler. Plenty of Checkerings, though smile

Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: iLaw] #2838139
04/11/19 05:20 PM
04/11/19 05:20 PM
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Is Boesendorfer the only Austrian piano company (that makes grands)? When we bought ours in 1985, they made several times as many grands as uprights. Also according to their website, they make 5 models larger than 6' 5" and only three models smaller, including the very new 155. Again according to their website they make fewer than 300 instruments a year.


Boesendorfer 225 (1985)
Yamaha S400E (predecessor to CF4) Disklavier (1992)
Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: Chrispy] #2838218
04/11/19 10:37 PM
04/11/19 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Chrispy
What would be a rough estimate for the average price of a 6'5"+ piano? I'd guess somewhere in the $50,000-$100,000 range. Depending on where it lands that's somewhere between 1/2 billion and a billion dollars of piano. Not too shabby.


The import value would be the invoice price to the dealer, not the sticker price to the end consumer.

Re: So where are the big grands coming from? [Re: astrotoy] #2838293
04/12/19 06:21 AM
04/12/19 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by astrotoy
Is Boesendorfer the only Austrian piano company (that makes grands)?


Both Feurich and Brodmann are Austrian companies, and both make grand pianos. But I believe Feurich only makes one upright model in Austria, and their grand pianos are made in China, and Brodmann make pianos in China and Germany, but not in Austria.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28, Pianoteq 6.5 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2), Garritan CFX Lite
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