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That would explain why it's absent. But it does raise the question of why Yamaha is still using an arguably older, feature-lacking AWM2 engine on a flagship like the Montage (or why a brand new, reinvented CP would need to use the Montage's engine)? Previous CPs didn't use AWM2 for the piano sounds IIRC.

Other manufacturers don't seem to be sticking obsolete tech in their top range models. Perhaps Yamaha is pulling a "SuperNatural" and the name "AWM2" doesn't tell the whole story?


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Gombessa #2804176 01/19/19 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
it does raise the question of why Yamaha is still using an arguably older, feature-lacking AWM2 engine on a flagship like the Montage

AWM2 is a very capable general purpose multi-function sound engine They also enhanced it on the Montage with support for "multi-part single instruments" -- meaning a single sound can now have a lot more than the 8 elements of the previous AWM2 implementation (i.e. up to 32 elements on a 4-part instrument), and they've also added seamless transitions that allow you to switch among different combinations of sounds, each with their own effects, which no cut-outs or audible glitches.The AWM2 foundation may be old, but it has continued to evolve into boards with new capabilities. It is definitely not "obsolete tech." Many feel it's still the best sounding board out there, when compared to Kronos or whatever other full-spectrum (not just piano) competitors.

Originally Posted by Gombessa
Previous CPs didn't use AWM2 for the piano sounds IIRC.
Some did, some used it in conjunction with SCM.

But really, I don't want to get hung up on the acronyms and what they represent. I don't know for a fact that AWM2 can't be implemented with sympathetic resonance. I'm just saying that it's possible that something about the design of the CP73/88 (whether hardware or software) may have precluded including it, and that it may have not just been "unnecessary product segmentation." We really don't know, I'm just hesitant to make assumptions.

As for why they may have derived this from the Montage tech rather than from the earlier CPs, maybe it's because of other functionality they wanted to include, that the Montage foundation supported. I would consider what it can do that the CP4 could not, even if the CP4 had some piano functionality that these do not. With enough effort, probably any combination of features could have been assembled, but looking at time and cost, it would make sense to work from the platform that is already closer to where you want it to be.

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Interesting as always, a/scott.

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All of this is entirely reasonable, but of course, it comprises a lot of assumptions, exactly along the lines of whether sympathetic resonances can easily be copied and "glued" into an AWM engine smile

And for the record, I'm not off the opinion that the CP needs to be the latest and best in acoustic piano simulation, it just needs to be the best balance for gigging musicians.


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Gombessa #2804196 01/19/19 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
And for the record, I'm not off the opinion that the CP needs to be the latest and best in acoustic piano simulation, it just needs to be the best balance for gigging musicians.

For musicians gigging with the reinforced sound not supporting any sympathetic resonances would be an actual advantage.

Those resonances do sound like an onset of feedback. And the feedback on stage is always very unnerving, even if there's no actual physical possibility of feedback happening.

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Thinking that Korg's GrandStage 73 may be a better choice at under €1650 (recently through Bax Shop).

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Originally Posted by Fleer
Thinking that Korg's GrandStage 73 may be a better choice.



I'm going to wait and see if they start selling it without the gaudy stand that comes with it (Who thought of that one at Korg), and get it for a better price. I'll bet 99% of guys wanting to buy this keyboard, or have bought one already DO NOT use that stand!!

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I made a simple comparison of view from two identically or nearly identically made videos from Gear4music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e0q2Guz9Zg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MngOmz8P_Ic

[Linked Image]

It's not super accurate, but gives some information that the keys of CP73 have shorter pivot length than keys of CP88.
I believe that all GH, GHE, BHE, GH3, GH3X, NW-Stage, NW-GH and NWX utilize the same general dimensional design, so the pivot length of these actions could be even identical. The only one action from Yamaha that has shorter pivot length is GHS, so the BHS from CP73 could be a variation of it.


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pawelsz #2834861 04/03/19 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by pawelsz
I made a simple comparison of view from two identically or nearly identically made videos from Gear4music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e0q2Guz9Zg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MngOmz8P_Ic

[Linked Image]

It's not super accurate, but gives some information that the keys of CP73 have shorter pivot length than keys of CP88.
I believe that all GH, GHE, BHE, GH3, GH3X, NW-Stage, NW-GH and NWX utilize the same general dimensional design, so the pivot length of these actions could be even identical. The only one action from Yamaha that has shorter pivot length is GHS, so the BHS from CP73 could be a variation of it.



Wonder whether anyone has any experience yet with this and could confirm whether the Balanced Hammer Action is essentially the ungraded version of GHS (which the name seems to suggest) or that it's really a different mechanic. Regardless of personal taste, GHS is an entry-level type of action compared to other actions Yamaha has to offer. If they are the same (action-wise, not weight wise) it would probably make the CP73 their most expensive piano to feature this entry level action.

Ideally I would have preferred them using a balanced version of the CP88's action. I am mostly considering the CP73 due to its size, and not so much its weight..

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John Road #2834863 04/03/19 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by John Road
If they are the same (action-wise, not weight wise) it would probably make the CP73 their most expensive piano to feature this entry level action.


Yeah, looks like it barely edges out the MODX8 (GHS) by $100 wink


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John Road #2834865 04/03/19 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by John Road
Wonder whether anyone has any experience yet with this and could confirm whether the Balanced Hammer Action is essentially the ungraded version of GHS (which the name seems to suggest) or that it's really a different mechanic.

I think this will be really hard to determine unless someone opens a CP73 and a GHS model and visually compares the two mechanisms. Unless Yamaha decides to tell us.

Some relevant discussion about this at https://yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/three-questions-about-the-cp73

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Originally Posted by anotherscott

I think this will be really hard to determine unless someone opens a CP73 and a GHS model and visually compares the two mechanisms. Unless Yamaha decides to tell us.

Some relevant discussion about this at https://yamahasynth.com/ask-a-question/three-questions-about-the-cp73



Probably the case (pics or it didn't happen, after all), but I think pawelsz is on the right track. The GH-derived actions have a very different pivot length than the GHS, and you should be able to instantly tell when sitting at a Yamaha keyboard which is which.

All the relevant arguments seem to have been made in the link you provided. Given my predisposition, I have to admit I rolled my eyes a bit at the apparent dodging and prevarication from Yamaha's Bad Mister. The dude is trying SO HARD to not admit BHS is based on GHS. But he can't come outright and say it's not derivative, because someone is eventually going to open one up. I could be wrong, but that's my impression of the conversation smile


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Gombessa #2834872 04/03/19 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by John Road
If they are the same (action-wise, not weight wise) it would probably make the CP73 their most expensive piano to feature this entry level action.


Yeah, looks like it barely edges out the MODX8 (GHS) by $100 wink


Where? Where I live CP73 is 200 - 300 dollars / euros more expensive than MODX8 (and MODX8 has 88 keys, of course a different type of keyboard overall but still. and keep in mind this is sold as a dedicated stage piano first and foremost, where as the MOD8X has a broader / different featureset, though obviously less direct no-menu controls).

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Originally Posted by John Road

Where? Where I live CP73 is 200 - 300 dollars / euros more expensive than MODX8 (and MODX8 has 88 keys, of course a different type of keyboard overall but still. and keep in mind this is sold as a dedicated stage piano first and foremost, where as the MOD8X has a broader / different featureset, though obviously less direct no-menu controls).


I just did a quick internet search. Sweetwater carries both. The CP73 is $1999 ($2499 list), whereas the MODX8 is $1899 ($2399 list). I'm sure there's some pricing variation out there.

Btw, I'm not affiliated with SW or anyone else, they just came up first in a Google search for both boards.


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Gombessa #2834876 04/03/19 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I ust
Originally Posted by John Road

Where? Where I live CP73 is 200 - 300 dollars / euros more expensive than MODX8 (and MODX8 has 88 keys, of course a different type of keyboard overall but still. and keep in mind this is sold as a dedicated stage piano first and foremost, where as the MOD8X has a broader / different featureset, though obviously less direct no-menu controls).


I just did a quick internet search. Sweetwater carries both. The CP73 is $1999 ($2499 list), whereas the MODX8 is $1899 ($2399 list). I'm sure there's some pricing variation out there.

Btw, I'm not affiliated with SW or anyone else, they just came up first in a Google search for both boards.


Thanks. Ok well a big EU webshop sells the MODX for € 1.522 = 1 710 dollars with free shipping (and no tax on top or afterwards)
CP73 is being sold for € 1.756 euros = 1.973 dollars (again free shipping and no tax on top afterwards)

So both cheaper than your example above but a much bigger pricegap, which brings me back to the point of whether Yamaha is using an entry-level action on a non-entry, dedicated stage piano. (Not saying GHS is bad it itself, it has its fans but it IS entry level). smile



[b][/b]

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Gombessa #2834877 04/03/19 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
The GH-derived actions have a very different pivot length than the GHS, and you should be able to instantly tell when sitting at a Yamaha keyboard which is which.

Only if those are the only two possibilities. You can't rule out the possibility of BHS having other differences from GHS besides balanced v. graded, even if the pivot length looks about the same.

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Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Gombessa
The GH-derived actions have a very different pivot length than the GHS, and you should be able to instantly tell when sitting at a Yamaha keyboard which is which.

Only if those are the only two possibilities. You can't rule out the possibility of BHS having other differences from GHS besides balanced v. graded, even if the pivot length looks about the same.


Yep, that's true. Again, pics or it didn't happen smile And maybe that's what Bad Mister was getting at, but if so, why the convoluted song and dance? Why not just say "It's not an ungraded GHS, there are significant differences beyond that?"

Since we already know the BHE from the Montage is very similar to the graded GH and ungraded NW-STAGE, I give 95/5 odds BHS is just an ungraded GHS. But I'm just an internet nobody, I have no skin in the game if I'm right or wrong.


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Gombessa #2834899 04/03/19 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Originally Posted by anotherscott
Originally Posted by Gombessa
The GH-derived actions have a very different pivot length than the GHS, and you should be able to instantly tell when sitting at a Yamaha keyboard which is which.

Only if those are the only two possibilities. You can't rule out the possibility of BHS having other differences from GHS besides balanced v. graded, even if the pivot length looks about the same.


Yep, that's true. Again, pics or it didn't happen smile And maybe that's what Bad Mister was getting at, but if so, why the convoluted song and dance? Why not just say "It's not an ungraded GHS, there are significant differences beyond that?"

Since we already know the BHE from the Montage is very similar to the graded GH and ungraded NW-STAGE, I give 95/5 odds BHS is just an ungraded GHS. But I'm just an internet nobody, I have no skin in the game if I'm right or wrong.


Yeah well that would be a bit sad since Yamaha themselves in their own video on their key actions called the GHS 'officially' an entry level action intended for beginners. I mean that doesnt mean it it's bad by any means but if BHS = ungraded GHS it its a rather expensive 73 stage piano for such an action. It might not deter me from getting one since 88 keys is just too big for my use case but it's somewhat of a disappointment since they could have made a different, arguably better, more fair design decision there (if proven to be true) for something at this price-point

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If I had any CP73 playing experience I would tell you something, but I haven't played it yet.


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John Road #2835279 04/04/19 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by John Road
Yeah well that would be a bit sad since Yamaha themselves in their own video on their key actions called the GHS 'officially' an entry level action intended for beginners. I mean that doesnt mean it it's bad by any means but if BHS = ungraded GHS it its a rather expensive 73 stage piano for such an action. It might not deter me from getting one since 88 keys is just too big for my use case but it's somewhat of a disappointment since they could have made a different, arguably better, more fair design decision there (if proven to be true) for something at this price-point

I think the question there might be whether they can in fact design a better action than GHS (or a GHS derivative) that weighs so little. After all, a lot of the appeal of a CP73 is that it weighs just 28-something lbs. even in a metal case with an internal power supply. The NW-GH in the 38.5 lb CP4 still ended up at 41 lbs once it found its way into the CP88. The GH made the CP40 a little lighter than the CP4, but not much.

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