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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834746 04/03/19 08:58 AM
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I have one registration for local control off (VST mode) and touch curve light+, another for local on and normal touch curve (internal sound engine + speakers), and a couple of variations for monitoring through headphones while recording internally (and vice versa). The first two are used multiple times every day depending on who is playing. And they're easy to create, save, and shuffle without any extra help or documentation (when they work correctly, that is ;))

Yes the N1X is a bit more "purist" in focus than the Kawai, but I honestly think the interface is as Yamaha-opaque as can be (remember the CP5/50?). You shouldn't have to dig manual to hunt for a function-key combo to do things in 2019, imho!

I mean, you can't tell me that a single line dot matrix LCD wouldn't be an improvement over the three-digit LED smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834751 04/03/19 09:13 AM
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As I said previously, I'm very bad with memory but I managed to learn the two important settings I will ever need to make:
voice + C7 (one octave below highest C): switch between binaural on/off, the actual value "ON/OFF" is displayed on the screen
function + C7: local control ON/OFF

all else that's important to me is accessed through physical buttons: changing voice, recorder, metronome
BTW, I still think physical buttons are probably better than touch screen for things like recorder. I don't want to eventually mess up (delete/overwrite) anything by unintentionally touching the wrong place on the screen. Especially since it would go black while recording. And when I decide to stop it, do I have to tap it once to wake it and then choose stop?


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2834753 04/03/19 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
As I said previously, I'm very bad with memory but I managed to learn the two important settings I will ever need to make:
voice + C7 (one octave below highest C): switch between binaural on/off, the actual value "ON/OFF" is displayed on the screen
function + C7: local control ON/OFF

That's very useful. My P-515 doesn't have these shortcuts, so I have to dig through nested menus every time I want to change these settings.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834755 04/03/19 09:24 AM
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I'm sure the shortcuts are faster than digging through a menu, too.

For something that frequently used, I would have a one-touch favorite created (and I actually do, since most of my favorites settings are for toggling headphone and speaker use).

This is starting to remind me of the command line versus GUI wars smile


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834762 04/03/19 09:41 AM
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So I get that Gombessa is not for the bare-bones N1X approach, and CyberGene feels that the N1X offers everything he needs, and he also prefers the basic interface over a fancy touch screen, right?
What about we get rid of the basic buttons and fancy touch screen, and opt for voice commands?
“Alexa, play Chopin!” wink

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834765 04/03/19 09:48 AM
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I think the simple button (and key) interface of the Yamahas is preferable to touch screens, but I have grown used to it on the old Clavinova. You soon get used to how to access the functions you use every day and when you do it is faster than trying to scroll through a touch screen.

Also I worry a bit about the durability of the touch screen - not sure it is as robust and long lasting as a simple button. What happens when it goes wrong in 7 or 8 years time and spares are not available?

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
percy64 #2834768 04/03/19 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by percy64
Also I worry a bit about the durability of the touch screen - not sure it is as robust and long lasting as a simple button. What happens when it goes wrong in 7 or 8 years time and spares are not available?

Then you go and replace it with a DIY button+key UI:

http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2822965/1.html

smile

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
percy64 #2834770 04/03/19 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by percy64

Also I worry a bit about the durability of the touch screen - not sure it is as robust and long lasting as a simple button. What happens when it goes wrong in 7 or 8 years time and spares are not available?


What happens in 7-8 years when your hardware buttons fail, and spares are not available? smile IMO it's really the same issue with both, in either case a control board will likely need replacing, and whether spares are available depends on the manufacturer's service program and not on a specific technology.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Gombessa #2834814 04/03/19 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

What happens in 7-8 years when your hardware buttons fail, and spares are not available? smile IMO it's really the same issue with both, in either case a control board will likely need replacing, and whether spares are available depends on the manufacturer's service program and not on a specific technology.

Yes - but in my experience touchscreens fail more frequently than buttons smile

And if a button does fail I stand a reasonable chance of being able to do a DIY fix

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834819 04/03/19 11:52 AM
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I purchased the adapter to use the smart app as an interface with the N1X. It's essentially a touchscreen at that point with a modern look. It works really well and I wouldn't mind if it was built into the N1X with a small screen on the side like the NV10. The smart app was really cool at first, however, I have found that I actually only use it for recording. For day to day operations I find it quicker to use the N1X buttons. One button/hand for the metronome, voices, reverb, etc., beyond that there is really not more to change.

God Bless,
David


Last edited by David B; 04/03/19 11:52 AM.

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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Gombessa #2834879 04/03/19 01:49 PM
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I should note that UX issues aside, the N1X is still the nicest piano I've owned and I'm delighted with it. But I couldn't let this thread just be a love fest could I? smile

Originally Posted by JoeT
Maybe Yamaha had a similar UI like Kawai in development for the N1X, then saw how Kawai struggled with their first implementation and pulled it in the last second reverting to the tried and tested interface from the previous generation? Who knows.


Yamaha already has a very nice interface built for the CLP-685 (and probably other CLP's?) that has a 1.5" square (ish, I'm guessing) backlit LCD display that is manipulated with mechanical buttons and offers full control of the instrument through menus, but also has a very nice "Piano Room" feature which uses icons effectively to allow control of things like lid position, reverb, resonance and such. It's a very nice little UI actually. As I mentioned in my earlier diatribe, I'm guessing it wasn't included on the N1X so it would keep the acoustic aesthetic where if you're not using a control, there is literally just black on the left side, where on the CLP the screen was obvious all the time. This is pure conjecture on my part though.

Originally Posted by MacMacMac
I can deal with the dangling cables. Mine are all hidden.


So I don't mind them either if I can hide them. So on the N1X there are two USB ports, one takes a "printer cable" which is what you use to hook your PC to the audio/midi interface. It's nicely hidden on the left side of the instrument, under the body. The midi ports are there as well along with aux audio jacks. It's actually very thoughtful placement because it makes it easy to hide those cables.

The USB port for devices however is right in front of the instrument under your left knee. It's right at the bottom of the keybed and also has the volume knob and headphone jacks. The knob is discrete enough, and I don't mind the headphone jacks because if you're using headphones there's no hiding it and it's convenient to have the jacks right there. But the USB port there means you just can't hide the cable, is sticks out of the front of the instrument like an aardvark tongue. Even if you pulled the cable back under the instrument, the strain relief causes it to poke out a couple of inches. And, as I mentioned, because it's right there next to the volume knob, to the right of in it in fact, many times while reaching for the volume you can easily knock the plug out if you're not looking (well even if you are looking, I've done it) and it's also easy to knock it out with your knee.


Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm sure the shortcuts are faster than digging through a menu, too.


Not really. I have to haul out the manual first off, because there's no way you'd memorize all of the settings. Then find the page and the setting. Then look to make sure you're hitting the right key, and I often have to count because I don't remember which D6 is all the time. If you have a setting you use all the time and have memorized it like CyberGene maybe but that's the only time I can see it being a time saver.


Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth), Mozart Sonata in C K. 545, R. Schumann Fantasy Dance, Joplin The Chrysanthemum
Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO, Piano de Voyage
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834881 04/03/19 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by David B
I purchased the adapter to use the smart app as an interface with the N1X. It's essentially a touchscreen at that point with a modern look. It works really well and I wouldn't mind if it was built into the N1X with a small screen on the side like the NV10. The smart app was really cool at first, however, I have found that I actually only use it for recording. For day to day operations I find it quicker to use the N1X buttons. One button/hand for the metronome, voices, reverb, etc., beyond that there is really not more to change.

God Bless,
David


David, can you tell me if you're able to control more resonance from the app than from the N1X itself? The only resonance feature you can change on the instrument are the string and damper resonance. The description of the app seems to imply you can also change things like the aliquot and body resonance (which you can change on the CLP-685 from the instrument.) Is this true, are there additional settings you can make from the app that you can't on the piano itself?


Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth), Mozart Sonata in C K. 545, R. Schumann Fantasy Dance, Joplin The Chrysanthemum
Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO, Piano de Voyage
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834963 04/03/19 06:02 PM
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Something from today. Bortkiewicz is very new to me but I can't get enough of his music!


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Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Chrispy #2835020 04/03/19 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Chrispy
David, can you tell me if you're able to control more resonance from the app than from the N1X itself? The only resonance feature you can change on the instrument are the string and damper resonance.


Just String and Damper Resonance.

God Bless,
David


Yamaha AdvantGrand N1X
Mac mini 2018/Focusrite Scarlett 2i4/KRK Rokit 6 G3 Studio Monitors
Duane Shinn 52 Week Crash Course; Completed
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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2835086 04/04/19 02:45 AM
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Originally Posted by David B
Originally Posted by Chrispy
David, can you tell me if you're able to control more resonance from the app than from the N1X itself? The only resonance feature you can change on the instrument are the string and damper resonance.


Just String and Damper Resonance.

God Bless,
David


Thanks for checking! So less control than I had on the CLP-685 and maybe it is possible to change all settings from the instrument then. Mind you I never actually changed the body or aliquot resonance on the CLP except to see what it did smile


Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth), Mozart Sonata in C K. 545, R. Schumann Fantasy Dance, Joplin The Chrysanthemum
Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO, Piano de Voyage
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Chrispy #2835158 04/04/19 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Chrispy
The USB port for devices however is right in front of the instrument under your left knee.

Would these help?:
https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-VCZHS-USB3-0-Converter-Female/dp/B01G8H7I44
https://www.amazon.com/wawpi-Degree...mp;psc=1&refRID=8C2ZWMC3GG5RM74NXWJ1

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Chrispy #2835187 04/04/19 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Chrispy
Thanks for checking! So less control than I had on the CLP-685 and maybe it is possible to change all settings from the instrument then. Mind you I never actually changed the body or aliquot resonance on the CLP except to see what it did smile

The P515 still has the body and aliquot . . .
Could you tell what they did? smile


.... Jeff ▫️ Yamaha P515 ▫️ Roll Tide
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Smaug #2835267 04/04/19 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Smaug
Originally Posted by Chrispy
The USB port for devices however is right in front of the instrument under your left knee.

Would these help?:
https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-VCZHS-USB3-0-Converter-Female/dp/B01G8H7I44
https://www.amazon.com/wawpi-Degree...mp;psc=1&refRID=8C2ZWMC3GG5RM74NXWJ1


Not really, first they are still visible and would just be hanging down rather than out, and second, at least for me who is tall, the port is right next to my knee so I'd still hit it. And it would still be in the way of the volume knob. I guess the first could be somewhat contained if I got two and did a 180, but I still would be hitting it I think. Thanks for the suggestion though, always good to have those types of adapters in the back of my head for other stuff.


Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth), Mozart Sonata in C K. 545, R. Schumann Fantasy Dance, Joplin The Chrysanthemum
Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO, Piano de Voyage
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
jeffscot #2835269 04/04/19 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffscot
Originally Posted by Chrispy
Thanks for checking! So less control than I had on the CLP-685 and maybe it is possible to change all settings from the instrument then. Mind you I never actually changed the body or aliquot resonance on the CLP except to see what it did smile

The P515 still has the body and aliquot . . .
Could you tell what they did? smile


I mean yes, but it was subtle. Unless I was actively changing it or setting it to ridiculous values, I'd probably not notice in a blind AB comparison.


Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth), Mozart Sonata in C K. 545, R. Schumann Fantasy Dance, Joplin The Chrysanthemum
Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO, Piano de Voyage
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
JoeT #2835352 04/04/19 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Maybe Yamaha had a similar UI like Kawai in development for the N1X, then saw how Kawai struggled with their first implementation and pulled it in the last second reverting to the tried and tested interface from the previous generation? Who knows..

Yamaha has been using touchscreens on their synths and workstations for a while. Adding a touchscreen or a new interface would cut 0.01% from their margin, so they kept the old one wink

Kawai is not even acknowledging that the UI has design issues, so, from their perspective, they are not struggling. The current UI has a lot of eye candy and looks nice in the showroom during the first contact with the DP. So, it is perfect for the customer segment they want to attract. The few users who care about usability and want features such as registration editing are a minority and can be safely ignored. If Kawai wanted to have a new UI designed from scratch for usability (and not for eye candy) they would only need a small team of specialized UI designers/programmers working on it for a couple of weeks. The reason there are no UI updates is not technical...

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