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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Csillag #2833951 04/01/19 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Csillag
...For now, yes. For the future, not necessarily ... if we can find out some info about the speaker system, and find a way to meaningfully map the multi-channel output of VSTs to these channels, then I think there is a reasonable hope that we might be able to go beyond stereo, even with the VSTs, just like how the integrated sound engine. Of course this all depends on whether or not those channels are actually exposed to the PC by the integrated USB device. That's why I am asking...

I share your enthusiasm, but it took well over a decade for the DP manufacturers to start adopting USB Audio and even today, just a few DPs support it. I wouldn't be surprised if Dexibell, Nord start supporting multi-channel audio and send multi-channel audio over USB on their *stage pianos* in the future. Yamaha, Roland and Korg might do the same with their synths/workstations. But multi-channel audio would be a niche segment. In any case, you will need a major paradigm shift to have such functionality and flexibility available on console digital pianos...

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2833966 04/01/19 06:53 PM
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Pianoteq can transmit up to 5 channels; it would be nice to be able to route these channels into the N1X’s sound system, but it seems like we’ll have to wait for that paradigm shift. In the meantime we’re stuck with baby steps. Damn you, Yamaha! eek

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Pete14 #2833973 04/01/19 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
Pianoteq can transmit up to 5 channels; it would be nice to be able to route these channels into the N1X’s sound system, but it seems like we’ll have to wait for that paradigm shift. In the meantime we’re stuck with baby steps. Damn you, Yamaha! eek


While it seems the N1X only has two line-in ports for stereo, I'm presuming the USB Audio interface might be extensible to allow for multi-channel input? Who knows if that's actually the case, but it's not limited to physical form factor at least....


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
arc7urus #2833974 04/01/19 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
But multi-channel audio would be a niche segment. In any case, you will need a major paradigm shift to have such functionality and flexibility available on console digital pianos...


I would be happy to accept this point if providing this feature would actually require investing some serious R&D, but as far as I can tell
- Multi-channel, high-resolution USB DAC ICs are available as ready-made components (or kits). (Or at least they could be very easily licensed form any number of companies, like PreSonus etc.)
- The DP already has a nice, finely tuned, multi-channel sound system, with the appropriate EQ and all.

Given that these prerequisites are already in place, I don't think it would break the bank to connect these things up, enabling an untold number of powerful future applications of the aforementioned sound system. (Including VSTs.)

But anyway, the progress is undeniable, so I'm not complaining.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Gombessa #2833979 04/01/19 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
I'm presuming the USB Audio interface might be extensible to allow for multi-channel input?


Can anyone check what is the actual embedded USB device? (Vendor ID, product ID... maybe some kernel logs when connected to a Linux computer?)

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2834078 04/02/19 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
After some more time spent with the N1X I have one impression that I can confirm and one new observation.

The impression:
- The sound through speakers is absolutely fantastic. Even though the CFX binaural is unequivocally a great sound for playing through headphones, the multichannel CFX through speakers is ultimately better because that's what a piano is: you hear sound coming from everywhere, you don't have anything on your head and ears, and you feel vibrations in the air and through your fingers and body. There were previously some doubts as to the quality of the speaker system, placement and direction of speakers. I haven't played a NV10, however I have played all the major digital pianos + NU1X and IMO the N1X is much better than the rest. YMMV but to my ears it sounds and feels exactly like e real grand piano in front of me. I've tested a N1 and a N3 some years ago and I was blown away by the N3 and underwhelmed by the N1. Now, I feel blown away in the same way by the N1X. I guess the N3X would be even better, but I haven't tested it. In any case, I will try to play on speakers as much as I can. Kudos to Yamaha for offering a premium hybrid piano that is perfect both through speakers and headphones.

The observation:
- Real grand piano actions, despite having double repetition lever, still have their limits in terms of how much you should lift the key before repeating it smile For instance if I play very quickly two notes one after another and it happens that I lift the key very slightly, say only 1-2mm, the repeat will be silent and so I've already had silent notes. Now, before we fully elaborate on "sudden silent note issue", let me clarify this is absolutely normal and I've experienced that on grand pianos too, including a Steinway D in our biggest concert hall in Sofia (which I had the pleasure to play for almost a week many years ago when participating in a jazz masterclass). With that in mind, my ES7 had triple sensors but surprisingly their location is such that it would allow for a repetition that's closer to the bottom than the N1X smile I guess there are some areas digital pianos might actually be even better than real grand pianos. But once again, that's not a bug or a fault, it's just the way grand piano actions work. They have the double repetition lever to allow keys to be repeated before full release (which isn't possible on upright pianos, hence not possible on the NU1X), but the double repetition lever has its limitations. However it's a "side-effect" that can be worked around. When I had my NU1X I learned to release keys fully. After I got my N1X I reversed my technique in a drastically opposed way, trying to repeat as low as possible, which sometimes resulted in silent notes, so I have calibrated my fingers now to a slightly higher position of minimum repeat. It's unconscious and happens very fast. But I though I'd mention it anyway smile



Hi CyberGene I've recorded a few videos when I tested Yamaha AGs and other grands. Not sure if that corresponds with your experience.

The repetition of N3 in my home


N3X repetition:


N2 repetition:


NU1X repetition:


Schimmel grand repetition:

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834084 04/02/19 02:48 AM
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Harpuia, your test is about speed of repetition with fully released keys. While that’s a useful test I was describing another thing: repeating a key before it’s fully released.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2834091 04/02/19 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Harpuia, your test is about speed of repetition with fully released keys. While that’s a useful test I was describing another thing: repeating a key before it’s fully released.


I did also test if I can re-press the key when the key is not fully released. Maybe I ignored something but I didn't notice a huge difference when I tested the AGs with Yamaha grands side by side.

Another question, you mentioned that the N1X has different marketing terms for the VRM than the NU1X. The N1X seems does not have body resonance modeling. Did you notice any difference after you got N1X?

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834106 04/02/19 04:13 AM
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Well, since you mentioned it, I think (or maybe it’s my imagination) but I think the resonances in the NU1X were a tiny bit more prominent. For instance there’s a piece I use to play with a specific chord that used to create a nice resonance on the NU1X and on the N1X that’s less accentuated. It can simply be the default VRM level is different. But can also be due to different VRM implementations. Or the lack of body resonance in N1X. In any case the resonances in the N1X are clearly audible and are nice and realistic. If there’s any difference it’s subtle at best.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2834165 04/02/19 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Well, since you mentioned it, I think (or maybe it’s my imagination) but I think the resonances in the NU1X were a tiny bit more prominent. For instance there’s a piece I use to play with a specific chord that used to create a nice resonance on the NU1X and on the N1X that’s less accentuated. It can simply be the default VRM level is different. But can also be due to different VRM implementations. Or the lack of body resonance in N1X. In any case the resonances in the N1X are clearly audible and are nice and realistic. If there’s any difference it’s subtle at best.

If you have the patience and find the time, could you record the effect of the VRM while silently pressing some keys?

Something like this:
https://soundcloud.com/ac-635715790/res02/s-zNH47
https://soundcloud.com/ac-635715790/res04/s-8aruV

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834312 04/02/19 01:19 PM
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It's been pointed out that the latest firmware revisions on the NV10 do not support string resonance on open strings which are played without a sound, although earlier revisions did. This feature of acoustic pianos has been intentionally used by Bartok and other 20th century piano composers.

Would one of the N1X owners mind testing this on the N1X? That is, silently hold down a key all the way so that the string that key represents is considered "open," and then play some nearby keys and see if the string represented by the silently held down key also resonates?


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834315 04/02/19 01:21 PM
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I’ve tested it after I received it. It works. Or do you want to hear how it sounds?


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2834319 04/02/19 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I’ve tested it after I received it. It works. Or do you want to hear how it sounds?

No, I don't need to hear it. I'm sure it works if you say it works. Thanks for confirming!

So in the case of the NV10, it was speculated that this might be related to zero velocity MIDI events or the lack of them. Does this work on the N1X no matter how slowly you press the key for the "string" being held open?


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
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"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834335 04/02/19 01:45 PM
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Yep, I’ve particularly wanted to test with silently pressed keys. The N1X has key sensors so it’s easy to detect a silent key press regardless of hammer sensors.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834349 04/02/19 02:02 PM
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I can confirm that this works with the N3X, because I have recently tested this myself.
But if you'll allow me the OT-plug: The NV10's resonances, as well as the Roland LX70x's resonances (I tested the LX705), are much more pronounced than the resonances from the sound engine in the N3X. That was actually the one point I found most disappointing on the N3X. Disclaimer: The N3X may have a setting to ramp up the resonance to similar levels as those of the NV10 or LX70x that I just wasn't aware of.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834390 04/02/19 02:56 PM
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I haven't tried it yet, but apparently you can adjust the aliquot and and body resonance from the app. On the piano itself you can only adjust the string and damper resonance. I could be wrong about this, but the N1X feature page says you get more controls like the "piano room" on the CLP series. David, you had the app going right? Have you tried this? I need to get a USB->Lightning dongle, thought I had one but it was USB->USB C.

I'll take this opportunity to express a few disappointments with the piano. I do miss having the full UI like the CLP-685 had as I really hate controlling things with the "find the right note" UI. It's a pain, it's opaque and any time I have to pull out the manual to control something the UI has failed. I understand Yamaha was going for the "it's an acoustic so we need to make the UI invisible" but it seems like they could have solved it a little more elegantly.

So you could argue the app is the elegance, however the fact is, to use it I have to have a dongle of some sort. It really bugs me that Yamaha either forces me to have a wire hanging out of the front of the instrument to use this interface or buy their $100 adapter to get wifi. Really? we spend 7-8 grand on the piano and you couldn't see fit to put a $2 wifi chip in it? Also, if I want wifi, I'm unable to also have my memory stick in, I have to switch between the two because there is only one USB port they work with (the other is the "printer cable" port for the midi/audio interface.) And, it also happens that while it's nice to have the usb on the front of the instrument so I can take memory sticks in and out with ease, it's not so nice that if I want full time wifi I have a big dongle with a light on it that sticks out of the front and is very easy to dislocate with a knee or while going to adjust the volume. All in all, Yamaha cheaped out here and it's a poor design which was not though through from a customer perspective, it is clearly that they didn't want to make any changes from what they have on all their DP's for economy.

Last edited by Chrispy; 04/02/19 03:01 PM.

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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834392 04/02/19 02:59 PM
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Regarding resonances (or the default level, for that matter) it’s sometimes a matter of what one is used to, also taste. I remember after having owned the NU1X for some time and then testing the CA78 I indeed discovered the resonances are more pronounced but I wasn’t sure I liked it. To me it was more like a reverb. I’m sure if I own one and then test a N1X I’ll find it lacking in terms of resonances.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Chrispy #2834411 04/02/19 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Chrispy
It really bugs me that Yamaha either forces me to have a wire hanging out of the front of the instrument to use this interface or buy their $100 adapter to get wifi. Really? we spend 7-8 grand on the piano and you couldn't see fit to put a $2 wifi chip in it?


Try buying an N3X and then finding out that even if you buy adapters, there's no wifi compatibility possible, ever. smile

Though to be fair, the N3X came out way back in (late) 2016. Who could have realized back then that wireless connectivity would be something consumers expect in top-of-the-line products...


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2834505 04/02/19 06:39 PM
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In the appendix of the N1X manual is a one or two page diagram of all the UI keys that control the piano. That may help until you get the app up and running? Yes, it is a pain to use the keys!


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
JoBert #2834538 04/02/19 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
I can confirm that this works with the N3X, because I have recently tested this myself.
But if you'll allow me the OT-plug: The NV10's resonances, as well as the Roland LX70x's resonances (I tested the LX705), are much more pronounced than the resonances from the sound engine in the N3X. That was actually the one point I found most disappointing on the N3X. Disclaimer: The N3X may have a setting to ramp up the resonance to similar levels as those of the NV10 or LX70x that I just wasn't aware of.

In the N1X there are settings to increase the resonance levels through the keyboard and apparently more resonance settings can be controlled via the app.

But the amount of resonance in all of these DPs is a matter of taste. I find that the Kawais have an exaggerated amount of resonance in pianist mode. I say exaggerated because it seems to be simulating the resonance very close to the strings and not from the player's position. The overall effect can be acceptable over speakers depending on the piano's character and additional sound settings, but can become unrealistic over headphones as it is more pronounced than on a acoustic piano. If you play around with Pianoteq you will need to place all the microphones inside the piano's cabinet for it to start sounding like resonance in pianist mode smile

Btw, how would you compare the AvantGrand action against the Novus?

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