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Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: JoeT] #2832576
03/29/19 03:19 AM
03/29/19 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Jitin
Could someone shed light on this , specifically , why people get say an nv10 /yamaha n1x type of piano over a acoustic upright (I am not including people who cannot get acoustic because of volume /maintenance issues)?

Good upright pianos have increased in price a lot. Digitals became much better and more affordable.

For me good uprights are in the 10000-20000 € range now, while really good digitals are still below 10000 €. This is what you get at below 8000 € as digital piano:

[Linked Image]

This is what you get at below 4500 €:

[Linked Image]

So the action isn't actually an issue anymore, except in the lowest price range.

You now have to decide, if you want to add roughly 10 grand to that, to get the remainder of the acoustic piano with a proper construction and a good sound (not just some noise). And then you still have to deal with maintenance and neighbors.


That pricing is a local US issue. It is no problem at all in Europe to acquire a young top quality upright for about 3-6k euro. Than I at least don't have to deal with low quality speakers (seriously nobody that buys a serious audio set would consider buying such bad speakers as you find in digital piano's) or a cumbersome headphone that separates you from your family. I say young because an accoustic instrument is not a disposable electronic device. New is more pricy but high quality still definitely does not start above 10k. More likely 7 to 8k before discount (discounts less steep than in US though). I can post examples from websites of official dealers if necessary but that might be considered advertising so perhaps Google a bit yourself. That money buys you something that, with proper maintenance (let's say 150 per year and an extra 3-500 each 5 years) will last you much much longer than any digital possibly could.

Neighbours is no issue in 90% of the cases as most of the current buildings are either very well isolated or completely separated from the neighbours. Of course city center apartments can be challenging but to me that sounds like self inflicted pain.

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Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: WimPiano] #2832664
03/29/19 09:55 AM
03/29/19 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by WimPiano
That pricing is a local US issue. It is no problem at all in Europe to acquire a young top quality upright for about 3-6k euro.

That's what I meant. New hand-made upright pianos increased in price a lot and used pianos moved up with them. 6k is still a lot of money to a lot of people.

Quote
That money buys you something that, with proper maintenance (let's say 150 per year and an extra 3-500 each 5 years) will last you much much longer than any digital possibly could.

You don't have that with a digital. For the first 5 to 10 years, all maintenance is included in the purchase price (because there usually is none).

And if you're really tight on a budget you can play digital below the upkeep cost of an AP, purchase included. Doesn't matter if it lasts 100 years, in comparision it's essentially free.

Quote
Neighbours is no issue in 90% of the cases as most of the current buildings are either very well isolated or completely separated from the neighbours. Of course city center apartments can be challenging but to me that sounds like self inflicted pain.

You obviously have a much more wealthy background, for some people living in "current" buildings is not an option and digitals provide them a way to enjoy a hobby.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Jitin] #2832677
03/29/19 10:20 AM
03/29/19 10:20 AM
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Your story is not consistent.
1. You post pictures of an 11.5k EUR hybrid and another of a 4.5k EUR hybrid as if they were representive examples of digitals. They are not. The lower priced digitals do not have these good actions, they are frankly disappointing in touch and in sound. I don't think you honestly believe that the sound and touch of a 1k digital is in any way comparable to a 4k used upright.

2. You tell me that I have a wealthy background: nope, the situation I describe applies to almost all people not living in apartments. Only 15% of the Dutch (my background) population lives in apartments. The percentage of the people that actually are interested in playing the piano (even considering that) in apartments is lower than in the rest. Also, the 15% of people living in apartments include also apartments of very wealthy people that do put Fazioli's in. Of course 3k is a considerable sum of money but putting 1k in a bad disposable electronic is a far worse idea.

3. The depreciation of the digital stuff is a lot faster than of the already steep depreciation of accoustics. With regards to maintenance: after the 5-10 years the digital is disposed in most cases. If you buy a young upright the combination of maintenance and depreciation is lower than only the depreciation of the high end digital. Of course there are exceptions to the rule but most things I hear about digitals is that people add virtual piano's, high and speaker systems, expensive headphones etc. The purchase of the digital alone is just a starter...




Last edited by WimPiano; 03/29/19 10:25 AM.
Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: WimPiano] #2832679
03/29/19 10:25 AM
03/29/19 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by WimPiano
Only 15% of the Dutch (my background) population lives in apartments.

We have a flat in Amsterdam. Amsterdam doesn't have many detached houses.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Jitin] #2832680
03/29/19 10:26 AM
03/29/19 10:26 AM
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If you have a flat in Amsterdam you are by definition wealthy.

Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: WimPiano] #2832681
03/29/19 10:27 AM
03/29/19 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by WimPiano
If you have a flat in Amsterdam you are by definition wealthy.

But that doesn't mean we can both have an acoustic piano and happy neighbors at the same time.

If we had an acoustic piano, I think the neighbors would put it into the the canal in front of the house! shocked


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Jitin] #2832685
03/29/19 10:46 AM
03/29/19 10:46 AM
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In that case I would say that you have the perfect argument to consider a high-end digital our a silent system. I never implied to say that digitals do not have their time and place. It's just that I don't think that the upright vs digital discussion was doing justice to most uprights.

Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: WimPiano] #2832688
03/29/19 11:00 AM
03/29/19 11:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
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Originally Posted by WimPiano
In that case I would say that you have the perfect argument to consider a high-end digital our a silent system. I never implied to say that digitals do not have their time and place. It's just that I don't think that the upright vs digital discussion was doing justice to most uprights.

OK, I understand what you are arguing now! Thanks.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Jitin] #2832795
03/29/19 05:16 PM
03/29/19 05:16 PM
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A lot of this is simply a sop to inferior talent.

There is no sense in buying more piano than you are capable of playing.

One should set a strict budget and stick to it.

And BTW, your mother is a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

[video:yahoo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBHPmYIxaiI[/video]

Last edited by Jolly; 03/29/19 05:18 PM.

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Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Jitin] #2832797
03/29/19 05:25 PM
03/29/19 05:25 PM
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Whaha that was brilliant. And agreed.

Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Jolly] #2832813
03/29/19 06:45 PM
03/29/19 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Jolly
A lot of this is simply a sop to inferior talent.

There is no sense in buying more piano than you are capable of playing.

One should set a strict budget and stick to it.


If you think a more expensive piano is more difficult to play you are in my experience mistaken. Besides, any good pianist must train the ears for the subtle qualities of sound and it's hard to do that on an instrument without any.

Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Jolly] #2832822
03/29/19 07:30 PM
03/29/19 07:30 PM
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Quote
There is no sense in buying more piano than you are capable of playing.


Jolly this does not make sense to me. If a novice bought a piano he/she was only capable of playing, it would suggest the person does not plan to grow. It it more cost effective at the initial expenditure to purchase something that you may grow into. That is not to say a beginner will get a grand and expect to grow into that. I speaking of a low level keyboard or piano that will not do the person justice in a couple of years. Then that person is looking at purchasing another instrument.


Deb
"A goal properly set is halfway reached." Zig Ziglar
Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Jolly] #2832830
03/29/19 07:50 PM
03/29/19 07:50 PM
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New York City
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Originally Posted by Jolly
There is no sense in buying more piano than you are capable of playing.
Although I think I understand what you mean I would express things differently.

First, let's assume that cost is either irrelevant or only a minor consideration. If that's the case, then as long as one can appreciate the hopefully better/more beautiful tone of a high tier piano then I think it's worth buying even if one will only play easy pieces with average skill. Even if one cannot hear any difference it might make good sense to buy an expensive piano with the hope that eventually one could appreciate the better tone.

It's true that, even playing an elementary piece, a highly skilled player on a low tier piano will probably sound better than a very average player on a terrific piano. But I think it's also true that a very average player on a terrific piano will sound better than the same player on a lesser piano.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 03/29/19 08:00 PM.
Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Jitin] #2832839
03/29/19 08:16 PM
03/29/19 08:16 PM
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Dublin
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If a piano is very responsive, it can also be quite merciless in exposing things like unevenness in playing and poor pedalling. I often hear this said about Fazioli in particular, as they can feel hyper-responsive. Having said all that, auditory feedback on things such as articulation and phrasing is so clear on a good piano that the pianist would probably have to play dreadfully for such a piano to be anything but a huge advantage.

Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Jolly] #2832911
03/30/19 01:35 AM
03/30/19 01:35 AM
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Lady Bird Online content
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Originally Posted by Jolly
A lot of this is simply a sop to inferior talent.

There is no sense in buying more piano than you are capable of playing.

One should set a strict budget and stick to it.

And BTW, your mother is a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

[video:yahoo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBHPmYIxaiI[/video]

This thread has some of strangest imagery I have ever read !
I know this comes from Monty Python but still ....?

Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Lady Bird] #2832934
03/30/19 03:38 AM
03/30/19 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Jolly
A lot of this is simply a sop to inferior talent.

There is no sense in buying more piano than you are capable of playing.

One should set a strict budget and stick to it.

And BTW, your mother is a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!

[video:yahoo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBHPmYIxaiI[/video]

This thread has some of strangest imagery I have ever read !
I know this comes from Monty Python but still ....?

The "theatre of the absurd" has just begun again !

Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Lady Bird] #2832945
03/30/19 04:34 AM
03/30/19 04:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
Originally Posted by Lady Bird
This thread has some of strangest imagery I have ever read !
I know this comes from Monty Python but still ....?

The "theatre of the absurd" has just begun again !

...or perhaps it is just Regietheater. smile


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: WimPiano] #2832988
03/30/19 10:02 AM
03/30/19 10:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,785
Europe
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Originally Posted by WimPiano
1. You post pictures of an 11.5k EUR hybrid and another of a 4.5k EUR hybrid as if they were representive examples of digitals. They are not. The lower priced digitals do not have these good actions, they are frankly disappointing in touch and in sound. I don't think you honestly believe that the sound and touch of a 1k digital is in any way comparable to a 4k used upright.

The digital sound itself is available in 1500 € slab pianos.

But the always brought up "4k used upright" is just as fictional as the "1k used hybrid" I can make up to counter it. So it's pointless to make up used instruments with certain features. Used gear might sometimes provide exceptional value and sometimes be a really raw deal, depending on time, location and the market. In my area (not Amsterdam) used uprights on the private market are in really bad shape and not worth any money. And local piano dealers closed down one after another, because nobody cares about pianos here.

So, instruments which have been made already and are not wanted anymore by their owners in certain locations are not the point of this discussion. For a proper comparison it's only relevant, much it costs to make a certain instrument to answer the question why uprights fell out of favor.

Quote
3. The depreciation of the digital stuff is a lot faster than of the already steep depreciation of accoustics. With regards to maintenance: after the 5-10 years the digital is disposed in most cases. If you buy a young upright the combination of maintenance and depreciation is lower than only the depreciation of the high end digital.

Some people are just interested in playing piano and do not care about an risky investment, they have to insure extra. So the absolute running cost is the only thing that matters. The only reason most pianists care about "deprecation" is when you need to sell your instrument. Also it's still too early to talk about deprecation of those new hybrids, these instruments are simply not old enough make any reasonable assessments about their future value.

Quote
Of course there are exceptions to the rule but most things I hear about digitals is that people add virtual piano's, high and speaker systems, expensive headphones etc. The purchase of the digital alone is just a starter...

Gear Acquisition Syndrom happens to wealthy grand lovers, too. You can visit their houses full of pianos, because just one wasn't not enough.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Jitin] #2833087
03/30/19 03:09 PM
03/30/19 03:09 PM
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Lady Bird Online content
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One thing that was said earlier was that it is possible to upgrade to a nice upright piano.This often happens if one has an ageing grand piano that one needs to sell or spend a great deal to repair.
That of course was us.Since I do not spend as many hours as I used
practicing, I chose a very nice 130 size piano.
I could have chosen a nice Japanese grand piano for the same price
but somehow did not want to feel encumbered by a grand when we want to downsize.If ever I ended up in an apartment I probably would want a silent mode added.
The piano we chose is all we needed.I am just as able to play very advanced pieces on it as a grand.The tone is certainly much better than the grand we had.That is something extremely important because the musician listens very carefully while the artist looks very carefully at the world and life around him.
A creative tone is a gift in music.

Re: Why do people not favor uprights?? [Re: Jitin] #2833105
03/30/19 04:24 PM
03/30/19 04:24 PM
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Oregon USA
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My problem with uprights is that I don't like looking at a vertical surface close to my face and that I don't like the sound coming directly at me. With my grand, I seldom use the music desk, so I can look out into the room and through the windows and the sound is dispersed in a way that I find more pleasing. I've tried some uprights that I thought sounded and played beautifully, but those two negatives caused me to get a grand.

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