2017 was our 20th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.9 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Shop our online store for music lovers
SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Petrof Pianos
Petrof Pianos
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Karsten Collection
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Who's Online Now
78 members (A441, carlspost, achoo42, bwest4030, chopinetto, Abdol, A. Lucato, 20 invisible), 523 guests, and 342 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
Animisha #2832470 03/28/19 07:20 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 37
M
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
M
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 37
Is portato like. glissando on piano?

Last edited by meaculpa; 03/28/19 07:21 PM.
(ad)
Piano & Music Accessories
piano accessories music gifts tuning and moving equipment
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
ShyPianist #2832475 03/28/19 07:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,739
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,739
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by NobleHouse
Originally Posted by meaculpa
What is HS, HT and what is portamento?

HS=Hands Separate
HT=Hands Together
Portamento=piano playing in a manner intermediate between legato and staccato.


That’s portato. Portamento is a slide, usually on a stringed instrument.

Portamento can apply to piano too. The Russian school especially uses that term.

Originally Posted by meaculpa
Is portato like. glissando on piano?

No, see link above.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
Animisha #2832476 03/28/19 07:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 573
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 573
No, that’s portamento. Kind of, but not really because it’s continuous.

Portato is the touch in between legato and staccato. Lengthened but still detached.

(Sorry that was to meaculpa)

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/28/19 07:26 PM.

Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
ShyPianist #2832477 03/28/19 07:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,739
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,739
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
No, that’s portamento. Kind of, but not really because it’s continuous.

When applied to piano, portamento is a bit different. See link above.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
Tyrone Slothrop #2832479 03/28/19 07:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 573
S
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
S
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 573
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Portamento can apply to piano too. The Russian school especially uses that term.


Hmm, misuses if you ask me, but I see that argument has already been had at length so I won’t re-open it. I’m also a violinist and they are totally different techniques so I guess I’m set in my ways.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/28/19 07:35 PM.

Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
ShyPianist #2832484 03/28/19 07:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,739
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,739
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Portamento can apply to piano too. The Russian school especially uses that term.


Hmm, misuses if you ask me, but I see that argument has already been had at length so I won’t re-open it. I’m also a violinist and they are totally different techniques so I guess I’m set in my ways.

Could be but as Neuhaus wrote his Art of Piano Playing in 1958, clearly it is been used this way by pianists for >60 years... BTW, the thread I linked seems to point out that for piano, portamento isn't quite portato either, but close.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
Animisha #2832485 03/28/19 07:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 13,370
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 13,370
I guess that like for Humpty Dumpty (*), any word can mean exactly what you want it to mean.

Me, I'm old school. A word means what it means, no more and no less. And portamento cannot apply to an instrument like the piano, viz:

In music, portamento (plural: portamenti, from Italian: portamento, meaning "carriage" or "carrying") is a pitch sliding from one note to another. The term originated from the Italian expression "portamento della voce" ("carriage of the voice"), denoting from the beginning of the 17th century its use in vocal performances[1] and emulation by members of the violin family and certain wind instruments,[2] and is sometimes used interchangeably with anticipation.[3] It is also applied to one type of glissando on, e.g., slide trombones, as well as to the "glide" function of steel guitars and synthesizers.

I think Russian texts which (apparently) use that word for piano playing have been mistranslated.


(*) P.S. For those of a less literary bent, this came from:
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.”


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
bennevis #2832486 03/28/19 07:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,739
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,739
Originally Posted by bennevis
I think Russian texts which (apparently) use that word for piano playing have been mistranslated.

Well, as I conveniently read Russian, I shall go off and investigate this right now and report back! smile


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
Tyrone Slothrop #2832497 03/28/19 08:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,739
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,739
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by bennevis
I think Russian texts which (apparently) use that word for piano playing have been mistranslated.

Well, as I conveniently read Russian, I shall go off and investigate this right now and report back! smile

Having investigated in the original edition of Heinrich Neuhaus, The Art of Piano Playing (1959), it is quite unmistakeable that Neuhaus intentionally used the word "portamento" and not "portato" as the former word is not even being translated from Russian. Instead, he inserts the word in Latin letters directly into the otherwise Russian text (see line 5 on p. 79 below):

[Linked Image]

Translated into English, it is exactly as was described in my link in my prior message. The following is the exact translation of the text in the image above starting from line 3 (I added the bolding):

Originally Posted by Heinrich Neuhaus, The Art of Piano Playing (1959), p. 79:
Chopin made his pupil play these five notes in turn not legato (which could have caused a certain tenseness or stiffness with an inexperienced beginner) but as a light portamento, using the wrist, so as to feel in every point complete freedom and flexibility. Thanks to this simple exercise the beginner immediately makes friends with the instrument, and feels that the piano and keyboard are not an alien, dangerous and even hostile machine but a familiar, friendly being ready to meet you if you treat it lovingly and freely, and yearning' for the closeness of the human hand as the flower yearns for the approach of the bee, ready to yield all its pollen. But instead of this, how many hundreds and thousands of pitiful beginners-and during how many years-when brought by their teachers into contact with the keyboard for the first time tried to turn their living hand with its nerves, muscles, flexible joints and pulsating blood, into a piece of wood with curved hooks, to extract with these hooks such offensive combinations of sound as for instance:


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
Animisha #2832500 03/28/19 08:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 13,370
B
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
B
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 13,370
In that case, Neuhaus thinks he's Humpty Dumpty grin.

Can any native Italian speaker make sense of (or throw light on) the way Neuhaus (a.k.a. HD) use that Italian word in the context of that paragraph?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
bennevis #2832505 03/28/19 08:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,739
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 9,739
Originally Posted by bennevis
In that case, Neuhaus thinks he's Humpty Dumpty grin.

Can any native Italian speaker make sense of (or throw light on) the way Neuhaus (a.k.a. HD) use that Italian word in the context of that paragraph?

BTW, I've just copied over my text from above into the original venerable thread, so that more experienced pianists over in Pianist Corner can also comment on HD's use of this term. You can make further comments there, including this.

While I may read Russian, I am not a native speaker, and some native speakers such as Iaroslav might be able to offer some additional insight into this issue.


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
Animisha #2832558 03/29/19 01:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,696
M
1000 Post Club Member
Offline
1000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,696
Thank you for clarifying .

I have been been taught the term semi-staccato and always thought that was what everyone called it.

(This will avoid any portato / potato / potatomento confusions).

I think that is easier and I’ll stick with it.

🦖

Last edited by Moo :); 03/29/19 01:17 AM.
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
Animisha #2832561 03/29/19 01:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,105
1000 Post Club Member
OP Offline
1000 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 1,105
My Russian video piano teacher also uses the term non-legato. To avoid any confusion, I shall use that term from now on. smile

And Meaculpa, I am sorry about the abbreviations! I should have explained them.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
*
... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
bennevis #2832591 03/29/19 04:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,912
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,912
Originally Posted by bennevis
In that case, Neuhaus thinks he's Humpty Dumpty

I wasn't able to understand that sentence in any way. Can you explain?

Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
Animisha #2832639 03/29/19 08:25 AM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 417
Full Member
Offline
Full Member
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 417
I have observed Russians redefining Italian terms before. For instance, if you look at the definitions of stretto, you will see a definition for fugal writing (overlapping subject entries) and a definition for non-fugal music. I know some Russians who only acknowledge the second, non-fugal definition and will almost scream: THERE IS NO STRETTO IN BACH! (I wonder what they call overlapping subject entries in fugal writing? Tyrone, could you ask your wife for me?)

I prefer not to let labels get in the way of ideas. Part of me grumbles like bennevis, but I'm ultimately interested in the musical result, not verbal chop logic.


Austin Rogers, PhD
Music Teacher in Cedar Park, TX
Baldwin SD-10 Concert Grand "Kuroneko"
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
Dr. Rogers #2832739 03/29/19 02:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,264
M
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
M
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,264
Originally Posted by Dr. Rogers
I have observed Russians redefining Italian terms before. For instance, if you look at the definitions of stretto, you will see a definition for fugal writing (overlapping subject entries) and a definition for non-fugal music. I know some Russians who only acknowledge the second, non-fugal definition and will almost scream: THERE IS NO STRETTO IN BACH! (I wonder what they call overlapping subject entries in fugal writing? Tyrone, could you ask your wife for me?)

I prefer not to let labels get in the way of ideas. Part of me grumbles like bennevis, but I'm ultimately interested in the musical result, not verbal chop logic.

But when dealing in written form, we must be sure the sound we are talking about is being understood as defined. If I'm using the word portamento and meaning a slide, then it's easy for pianists to think I mean glissando. This is why I use portato, which is taken from string instruments, but it is the same sound as would be on the piano, whereas portamento on other instruments is clearly not the same as on piano.

Now that's clear as mud! laugh


private piano/voice teacher FT

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
Animisha #2832761 03/29/19 03:31 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 27,428
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 27,428
You say po-ta-to, I say po-tah-to.... You say portamento, I say portato....Let's call the whole thing off!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIYS9EQWkXg

Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking
pianoloverus #2832823 03/29/19 07:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,829
5000 Post Club Member
Offline
5000 Post Club Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 5,829
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
You say po-ta-to, I say po-tah-to.... You say portamento, I say portato....Let's call the whole thing off!


You say demisemihemidemisemiquaver,; I say two hundred and fifty sixth note...


Learner
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  BB Player 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
News from the Piano World
Where Did The Buttons Go?!
----------------------
Our April 2020 Newsletter Available Online Now...
The Piano World During the Pandemic!
----------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
Download Sheet Music
Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Your Biggest Struggles
by Tom-mmh - 07/06/20 03:51 PM
Value of piano?
by Heimom - 07/06/20 03:33 PM
Ennio Morricone RIP
by pianoloverus - 07/06/20 02:20 PM
Action sticker jams capstan screw
by Loves2TickleIvory - 07/06/20 02:09 PM
Wavesfactory sale: ~30% off
by VladK - 07/06/20 01:45 PM
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics200,070
Posts2,977,517
Members97,680
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

Virtual Sheet Music - Classical Sheet Music Downloads



 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2020 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4