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Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: Animisha] #2832470
03/28/19 07:20 PM
03/28/19 07:20 PM
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meaculpa Offline
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Is portato like. glissando on piano?

Last edited by meaculpa; 03/28/19 07:21 PM.
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Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: ShyPianist] #2832475
03/28/19 07:25 PM
03/28/19 07:25 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by NobleHouse
Originally Posted by meaculpa
What is HS, HT and what is portamento?

HS=Hands Separate
HT=Hands Together
Portamento=piano playing in a manner intermediate between legato and staccato.


That’s portato. Portamento is a slide, usually on a stringed instrument.

Portamento can apply to piano too. The Russian school especially uses that term.

Originally Posted by meaculpa
Is portato like. glissando on piano?

No, see link above.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: Animisha] #2832476
03/28/19 07:25 PM
03/28/19 07:25 PM
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No, that’s portamento. Kind of, but not really because it’s continuous.

Portato is the touch in between legato and staccato. Lengthened but still detached.

(Sorry that was to meaculpa)

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/28/19 07:26 PM.

Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: ShyPianist] #2832477
03/28/19 07:26 PM
03/28/19 07:26 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
No, that’s portamento. Kind of, but not really because it’s continuous.

When applied to piano, portamento is a bit different. See link above.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2832479
03/28/19 07:30 PM
03/28/19 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Portamento can apply to piano too. The Russian school especially uses that term.


Hmm, misuses if you ask me, but I see that argument has already been had at length so I won’t re-open it. I’m also a violinist and they are totally different techniques so I guess I’m set in my ways.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/28/19 07:35 PM.

Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: ShyPianist] #2832484
03/28/19 07:41 PM
03/28/19 07:41 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Portamento can apply to piano too. The Russian school especially uses that term.


Hmm, misuses if you ask me, but I see that argument has already been had at length so I won’t re-open it. I’m also a violinist and they are totally different techniques so I guess I’m set in my ways.

Could be but as Neuhaus wrote his Art of Piano Playing in 1958, clearly it is been used this way by pianists for >60 years... BTW, the thread I linked seems to point out that for piano, portamento isn't quite portato either, but close.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: Animisha] #2832485
03/28/19 07:42 PM
03/28/19 07:42 PM
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I guess that like for Humpty Dumpty (*), any word can mean exactly what you want it to mean.

Me, I'm old school. A word means what it means, no more and no less. And portamento cannot apply to an instrument like the piano, viz:

In music, portamento (plural: portamenti, from Italian: portamento, meaning "carriage" or "carrying") is a pitch sliding from one note to another. The term originated from the Italian expression "portamento della voce" ("carriage of the voice"), denoting from the beginning of the 17th century its use in vocal performances[1] and emulation by members of the violin family and certain wind instruments,[2] and is sometimes used interchangeably with anticipation.[3] It is also applied to one type of glissando on, e.g., slide trombones, as well as to the "glide" function of steel guitars and synthesizers.

I think Russian texts which (apparently) use that word for piano playing have been mistranslated.


(*) P.S. For those of a less literary bent, this came from:
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.' 'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.' 'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.”


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: bennevis] #2832486
03/28/19 07:44 PM
03/28/19 07:44 PM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by bennevis
I think Russian texts which (apparently) use that word for piano playing have been mistranslated.

Well, as I conveniently read Russian, I shall go off and investigate this right now and report back! smile


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2832497
03/28/19 08:13 PM
03/28/19 08:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,146
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by bennevis
I think Russian texts which (apparently) use that word for piano playing have been mistranslated.

Well, as I conveniently read Russian, I shall go off and investigate this right now and report back! smile

Having investigated in the original edition of Heinrich Neuhaus, The Art of Piano Playing (1959), it is quite unmistakeable that Neuhaus intentionally used the word "portamento" and not "portato" as the former word is not even being translated from Russian. Instead, he inserts the word in Latin letters directly into the otherwise Russian text (see line 5 on p. 79 below):

[Linked Image]

Translated into English, it is exactly as was described in my link in my prior message. The following is the exact translation of the text in the image above starting from line 3 (I added the bolding):

Originally Posted by Heinrich Neuhaus, The Art of Piano Playing (1959), p. 79:
Chopin made his pupil play these five notes in turn not legato (which could have caused a certain tenseness or stiffness with an inexperienced beginner) but as a light portamento, using the wrist, so as to feel in every point complete freedom and flexibility. Thanks to this simple exercise the beginner immediately makes friends with the instrument, and feels that the piano and keyboard are not an alien, dangerous and even hostile machine but a familiar, friendly being ready to meet you if you treat it lovingly and freely, and yearning' for the closeness of the human hand as the flower yearns for the approach of the bee, ready to yield all its pollen. But instead of this, how many hundreds and thousands of pitiful beginners-and during how many years-when brought by their teachers into contact with the keyboard for the first time tried to turn their living hand with its nerves, muscles, flexible joints and pulsating blood, into a piece of wood with curved hooks, to extract with these hooks such offensive combinations of sound as for instance:


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: Animisha] #2832500
03/28/19 08:29 PM
03/28/19 08:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 11,861
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bennevis Offline
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In that case, Neuhaus thinks he's Humpty Dumpty grin.

Can any native Italian speaker make sense of (or throw light on) the way Neuhaus (a.k.a. HD) use that Italian word in the context of that paragraph?


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: bennevis] #2832505
03/28/19 08:37 PM
03/28/19 08:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 5,146
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content

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Originally Posted by bennevis
In that case, Neuhaus thinks he's Humpty Dumpty grin.

Can any native Italian speaker make sense of (or throw light on) the way Neuhaus (a.k.a. HD) use that Italian word in the context of that paragraph?

BTW, I've just copied over my text from above into the original venerable thread, so that more experienced pianists over in Pianist Corner can also comment on HD's use of this term. You can make further comments there, including this.

While I may read Russian, I am not a native speaker, and some native speakers such as Iaroslav might be able to offer some additional insight into this issue.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: Animisha] #2832558
03/29/19 01:15 AM
03/29/19 01:15 AM
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Moo :) Offline
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Thank you for clarifying .

I have been been taught the term semi-staccato and always thought that was what everyone called it.

(This will avoid any portato / potato / potatomento confusions).

I think that is easier and I’ll stick with it.

🦖

Last edited by Moo :); 03/29/19 01:17 AM.
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: Animisha] #2832561
03/29/19 01:43 AM
03/29/19 01:43 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
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Sweden
Animisha Offline OP
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My Russian video piano teacher also uses the term non-legato. To avoid any confusion, I shall use that term from now on. smile

And Meaculpa, I am sorry about the abbreviations! I should have explained them.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: bennevis] #2832591
03/29/19 04:47 AM
03/29/19 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
In that case, Neuhaus thinks he's Humpty Dumpty

I wasn't able to understand that sentence in any way. Can you explain?

Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: Animisha] #2832639
03/29/19 08:25 AM
03/29/19 08:25 AM
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I have observed Russians redefining Italian terms before. For instance, if you look at the definitions of stretto, you will see a definition for fugal writing (overlapping subject entries) and a definition for non-fugal music. I know some Russians who only acknowledge the second, non-fugal definition and will almost scream: THERE IS NO STRETTO IN BACH! (I wonder what they call overlapping subject entries in fugal writing? Tyrone, could you ask your wife for me?)

I prefer not to let labels get in the way of ideas. Part of me grumbles like bennevis, but I'm ultimately interested in the musical result, not verbal chop logic.


Austin Rogers, PhD
Music Teacher in Austin, TX
Baldwin SD-10 Concert Grand "Kuroneko", Baldwin Upright, Yamaha P-255
Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: Dr. Rogers] #2832739
03/29/19 02:34 PM
03/29/19 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Rogers
I have observed Russians redefining Italian terms before. For instance, if you look at the definitions of stretto, you will see a definition for fugal writing (overlapping subject entries) and a definition for non-fugal music. I know some Russians who only acknowledge the second, non-fugal definition and will almost scream: THERE IS NO STRETTO IN BACH! (I wonder what they call overlapping subject entries in fugal writing? Tyrone, could you ask your wife for me?)

I prefer not to let labels get in the way of ideas. Part of me grumbles like bennevis, but I'm ultimately interested in the musical result, not verbal chop logic.

But when dealing in written form, we must be sure the sound we are talking about is being understood as defined. If I'm using the word portamento and meaning a slide, then it's easy for pianists to think I mean glissando. This is why I use portato, which is taken from string instruments, but it is the same sound as would be on the piano, whereas portamento on other instruments is clearly not the same as on piano.

Now that's clear as mud! laugh


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Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: Animisha] #2832761
03/29/19 03:31 PM
03/29/19 03:31 PM
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You say po-ta-to, I say po-tah-to.... You say portamento, I say portato....Let's call the whole thing off!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIYS9EQWkXg

Re: Daily scale practice - need help thinking [Re: pianoloverus] #2832823
03/29/19 07:36 PM
03/29/19 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
You say po-ta-to, I say po-tah-to.... You say portamento, I say portato....Let's call the whole thing off!


You say demisemihemidemisemiquaver,; I say two hundred and fifty sixth note...


Learner
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