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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: Keith D Kerman]
#2831597
03/26/19 11:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 1,180
Chrispy
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Of course I picked the Steingraeber as my favorite. Why do I have to like the ridiculously expensive pianos so much?
Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth) and C minor Prelude (big chords) Instruments: Yamaha N1X, Kawai ES110, Roland GO:PIANO
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: WilliamTruitt]
#2831645
03/26/19 01:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 183
sroreilly
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The Estonia is a revelation in how good it sounds, "better than it has any right to be." .
I don't think I understand this point. Steingraebers and Bosendorfers are more expensive instruments to be certain. But an Estonia 225 is still a VERY expensive instrument by just about anyone's standards. I cannot think of a person who would pay more than 50k US dollars for a piano and not expect a top level performing instrument.
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: Keith D Kerman]
#2831657
03/26/19 02:30 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,041
AaronSF
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Very interesting. I chose #3, then #1, then #2 -- but I thought they were all pretty great. I'm not surprised the Bösendorfer was my first choice! 
August Förster 215
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: sroreilly]
#2831731
03/26/19 06:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 37
noyes
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I don't think I understand this point. Steingraebers and Bosendorfers are more expensive instruments to be certain. But an Estonia 225 is still a VERY expensive instrument by just about anyone's standards. I cannot think of a person who would pay more than 50k US dollars for a piano and not expect a top level performing instrument.
What would be a realistic price for a new Estonia 225? At a local dealer I was quoted $42k for a new Estonia 190, Hidden Beauty finish. This was after the owner had lowered the asking price two times. So I am interested in knowing whether it's realistic to get a new 225 for $50k.
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: noyes]
#2831739
03/26/19 07:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 2017
Posts: 183
sroreilly
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I don't think I understand this point. Steingraebers and Bosendorfers are more expensive instruments to be certain. But an Estonia 225 is still a VERY expensive instrument by just about anyone's standards. I cannot think of a person who would pay more than 50k US dollars for a piano and not expect a top level performing instrument.
What would be a realistic price for a new Estonia 225? At a local dealer I was quoted $42k for a new Estonia 190, Hidden Beauty finish. This was after the owner had lowered the asking price two times. So I am interested in knowing whether it's realistic to get a new 225 for $50k. Probably not. I am just saying as a ballpark number, I can't think of a person who would spend more than 50k on an instrument that isn't a top performer.
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: Keith D Kerman]
#2831780
03/26/19 09:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,377
Ed McMorrow, RPT
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I am surprised so many people liked the Steingraeber. Every one I have experienced had that "thuddy" sound and I could just "hear" the action feel through the slight inflexibilities heard in her playing on that piano. In my opinion they are a very overrated make. They sound like a heavy hammer piano that has been "worked" to the max to get what tone is possible with that style of action setup. I do know their tone character changes rapidly with use.
The Estonias that I have experienced have a more Steinway like warmth as do many of the smaller Sauters.
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible. According to NASA, 93% of the earth like planets possible in the known universe have yet to be formed. Contact: Ed@LightHammerpiano.com
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
#2831813
03/27/19 01:51 AM
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Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 2,980
Lady Bird
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I am surprised so many people liked the Steingraeber. Every one I have experienced had that "thuddy" sound and I could just "hear" the action feel through the slight inflexibilities heard in her playing on that piano. In my opinion they are a very overrated make. They sound like a heavy hammer piano that has been "worked" to the max to get what tone is possible with that style of action setup. I do know their tone character changes rapidly with use.
The Estonias that I have experienced have a more Steinway like warmth as do many of the smaller Sauters. I said I enjoyed no2 the most which I did.If I ever win the lottery (which is doubtful since I never buy tickets) I would have to think about an Estonia ! I bet that made your day BruceD ?
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: Keith D Kerman]
#2831843
03/27/19 04:44 AM
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,182
WimPiano
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If there is one thing I found lacking in the Estonia tone it was warmth.
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
#2831992
03/27/19 11:52 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,907
Roy123
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I am surprised so many people liked the Steingraeber. Every one I have experienced had that "thuddy" sound and I could just "hear" the action feel through the slight inflexibilities heard in her playing on that piano. In my opinion they are a very overrated make. They sound like a heavy hammer piano that has been "worked" to the max to get what tone is possible with that style of action setup. I do know their tone character changes rapidly with use.
The Estonias that I have experienced have a more Steinway like warmth as do many of the smaller Sauters. I played a Steingraeber once. The action definitely had a high moment of inertia, supporting your diagnosis of heavy hammers. I must say it sounded very good, but I only spent a few minutes with it.
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: WimPiano]
#2832006
03/27/19 12:50 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,047
Keith D Kerman
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Very interesting outcome. The Steingraeber is not really a surprise. I was not expecting the Bösendorfer although it matches my expectation that No 3 would probably do better (quite a lot I suppose) with a different repertoire. I was pleasantly surprised by the Estonia bass but could not care about the tenor and treble.
Thanks a lot for doing this and of course also to the pianist that put down a very solid performance, not once but three times (and with a very constant tempo as the performances match almost to the second). Thank you for your observations. If the repertoire was Mozart, the Bose would have won hands down. After playing the Bosendorfer a bit to get used to it, the pianist launched into some Mozart sonatas and it just sounded perfect.
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: redfish1901]
#2832007
03/27/19 12:51 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,047
Keith D Kerman
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Hey, I got 2 out of 3. Where do I collect the prize piano?  #3 was my favorite, and I liked #1 better than #2. We sent the prize to you with 2/3 of the necessary postage! 
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: jazzyprof]
#2832008
03/27/19 12:53 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,047
Keith D Kerman
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Even with my eyes closed, the video recordings sound different from the audio ones, especially the Steingraeber. The video recording sounds somewhat muted compared to the audio. I wonder whether the addition of video makes it necessary to do more compression in order to transmit the data. Or is it just my ears deceiving me?
Great pianos, prep, and performances! Thank you very much for your observations. FWIW, in order to get audio to YouTube it had to go through an additional program. Also, the Steingraeber take and the Bose take may be different in the video than in the audio.
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: Rich D.]
#2832010
03/27/19 12:55 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,047
Keith D Kerman
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I imagine Estonia must feel pretty good about this. I have to agree. Listening to the Estonia 225 was a real eye opener to me. It certainly should be on everyone's list to try when shopping for a piano of this size. Rich I think so! If I listed the tier 1 and 2 pianos we have had traded in on Estonias some would be shocked.
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: j&j]
#2832013
03/27/19 12:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,047
Keith D Kerman
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Thank you so much Keith, this was fun. So my favorite was the Bosendorfer! Of course. The reality is I’ll never get a Bösendorfer and I will never play as well as the pianist in those videos. But it is fun to dream. But my dream it to help you get a Bosendorfer ( or other great piano ) some day!  C3s are pretty sweet in the mean time.
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: BruceD]
#2832014
03/27/19 12:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,047
Keith D Kerman
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Just accounting for first choices among those who voted in the initial thread:
Steingräber = 9 votes Estonia = 9 votes Bösendorfer = 6 votes
Most interesting results!
Regards, Thanks for the tally. Saved me the trouble!
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: DiarmuidD]
#2832016
03/27/19 12:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,047
Keith D Kerman
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My favourite turned out to be the Bosie also. I didn't have the courage to actually guess though  The only thing I was confident of was that there were no Yamaha's or Fazioli's in the mix. Easy to say now of course... Next time I put put a Yamaha or Fazioli in the mix! Muahahahaha!
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: WhoDwaldi]
#2832017
03/27/19 12:59 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,047
Keith D Kerman
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I favored #2; interesting that it is Estonia. The Steingraeber is different (more mellow) than the examples of the brand that I have heard on other vids. I like mellow, but I think--musically--the Estonia is probably easier to play (from the tone perspective).
Which goes to show that every piano must be considered as an individual. 😠The pianist found the Estonia a bit more difficult to play than the Steingraeber but nothing that couldn't be addressed.
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: dhull100]
#2832018
03/27/19 01:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,047
Keith D Kerman
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Very interesting, and thanks for this. I preferred the Bosendorfer and Estonia, which is a surprise to me. Never played a Steingraeber. I hope you get a chance to play a Steingraeber one day. At PianoCraft of course!  Thanks for comments.
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: Erchoukyrie]
#2832020
03/27/19 01:01 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,047
Keith D Kerman
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Keith,
Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to put this together for us. Most educational as well as entertaining.
You are very welcome. It was most educational and entertaining for me as well.
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
[Re: Sanfrancisco]
#2832022
03/27/19 01:04 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,047
Keith D Kerman
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I imagine Estonia must feel pretty good about this. I have to agree. Listening to the Estonia 225 was a real eye opener to me. It certainly should be on everyone's list to try when shopping for a piano of this size. Rich Keith thank you so much for all the work you put into this very enlightening project. Jin's playing of "The Maiden...no4" was so instructional. Here's an interesting point: Comparing the Estonia 225 to my 210 on the same few measures of The Maiden, the scaling on the 210 is very different. The 210 is more focused with I feel a better treble/bass balance. I'm usually very methodical with big decisions but I bought the 210 in an out of town showroom (with a plane to catch) after playing it for the first time for only 1/2 hour! The owner drove me in his car at breakneck speed to the airport. The only other major decision I've made at that quickly was when I first met my wife..... As pianos get larger, balance often becomes more difficult. I have pointed out many times how few manufacturers have what I consider to be successful concert grands even though they may have fantastic smaller pianos. The Estonia 210 is more consistent than the 225 out of the box but with the right approach the 225s can really shine. Congrats on your 210. We love that piano!
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