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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
Keith D Kerman #2831597 03/26/19 12:47 PM
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Of course I picked the Steingraeber as my favorite. Why do I have to like the ridiculously expensive pianos so much?


Now learning: Chopin C# minor Nocturne (posth) and C minor Prelude (big chords), Mozart Sonata in C K. 545
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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
WilliamTruitt #2831645 03/26/19 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by WilliamTruitt
The Estonia is a revelation in how good it sounds, "better than it has any right to be."
.



I don't think I understand this point. Steingraebers and Bosendorfers are more expensive instruments to be certain. But an Estonia 225 is still a VERY expensive instrument by just about anyone's standards. I cannot think of a person who would pay more than 50k US dollars for a piano and not expect a top level performing instrument.

Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
Keith D Kerman #2831657 03/26/19 03:30 PM
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Very interesting. I chose #3, then #1, then #2 -- but I thought they were all pretty great. I'm not surprised the Bösendorfer was my first choice! cool


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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
sroreilly #2831731 03/26/19 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sroreilly

I don't think I understand this point. Steingraebers and Bosendorfers are more expensive instruments to be certain. But an Estonia 225 is still a VERY expensive instrument by just about anyone's standards. I cannot think of a person who would pay more than 50k US dollars for a piano and not expect a top level performing instrument.


What would be a realistic price for a new Estonia 225? At a local dealer I was quoted $42k for a new Estonia 190, Hidden Beauty finish. This was after the owner had lowered the asking price two times. So I am interested in knowing whether it's realistic to get a new 225 for $50k.

Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
noyes #2831739 03/26/19 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by noyes
Originally Posted by sroreilly

I don't think I understand this point. Steingraebers and Bosendorfers are more expensive instruments to be certain. But an Estonia 225 is still a VERY expensive instrument by just about anyone's standards. I cannot think of a person who would pay more than 50k US dollars for a piano and not expect a top level performing instrument.


What would be a realistic price for a new Estonia 225? At a local dealer I was quoted $42k for a new Estonia 190, Hidden Beauty finish. This was after the owner had lowered the asking price two times. So I am interested in knowing whether it's realistic to get a new 225 for $50k.


Probably not. I am just saying as a ballpark number, I can't think of a person who would spend more than 50k on an instrument that isn't a top performer.

Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
Keith D Kerman #2831780 03/26/19 10:40 PM
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I am surprised so many people liked the Steingraeber. Every one I have experienced had that "thuddy" sound and I could just "hear" the action feel through the slight inflexibilities heard in her playing on that piano. In my opinion they are a very overrated make. They sound like a heavy hammer piano that has been "worked" to the max to get what tone is possible with that style of action setup. I do know their tone character changes rapidly with use.

The Estonias that I have experienced have a more Steinway like warmth as do many of the smaller Sauters.


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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
Ed McMorrow, RPT #2831813 03/27/19 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I am surprised so many people liked the Steingraeber. Every one I have experienced had that "thuddy" sound and I could just "hear" the action feel through the slight inflexibilities heard in her playing on that piano. In my opinion they are a very overrated make. They sound like a heavy hammer piano that has been "worked" to the max to get what tone is possible with that style of action setup. I do know their tone character changes rapidly with use.

The Estonias that I have experienced have a more Steinway like warmth as do many of the smaller Sauters.

I said I enjoyed no2 the most which I did.If I ever win the lottery (which is doubtful since I never buy tickets) I would have to think about an Estonia ! I bet that made your day BruceD ?

Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
Keith D Kerman #2831843 03/27/19 05:44 AM
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If there is one thing I found lacking in the Estonia tone it was warmth.

Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
Ed McMorrow, RPT #2831992 03/27/19 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed McMorrow, RPT
I am surprised so many people liked the Steingraeber. Every one I have experienced had that "thuddy" sound and I could just "hear" the action feel through the slight inflexibilities heard in her playing on that piano. In my opinion they are a very overrated make. They sound like a heavy hammer piano that has been "worked" to the max to get what tone is possible with that style of action setup. I do know their tone character changes rapidly with use.

The Estonias that I have experienced have a more Steinway like warmth as do many of the smaller Sauters.


I played a Steingraeber once. The action definitely had a high moment of inertia, supporting your diagnosis of heavy hammers. I must say it sounded very good, but I only spent a few minutes with it.

Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
WimPiano #2832006 03/27/19 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by WimPiano
Very interesting outcome. The Steingraeber is not really a surprise. I was not expecting the Bösendorfer although it matches my expectation that No 3 would probably do better (quite a lot I suppose) with a different repertoire. I was pleasantly surprised by the Estonia bass but could not care about the tenor and treble.

Thanks a lot for doing this and of course also to the pianist that put down a very solid performance, not once but three times (and with a very constant tempo as the performances match almost to the second).


Thank you for your observations. If the repertoire was Mozart, the Bose would have won hands down. After playing the Bosendorfer a bit to get used to it, the pianist launched into some Mozart sonatas and it just sounded perfect.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

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Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
redfish1901 #2832007 03/27/19 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by redfish1901
Hey, I got 2 out of 3. Where do I collect the prize piano? smile

#3 was my favorite, and I liked #1 better than #2.



We sent the prize to you with 2/3 of the necessary postage! smile


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
jazzyprof #2832008 03/27/19 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jazzyprof
Even with my eyes closed, the video recordings sound different from the audio ones, especially the Steingraeber. The video recording sounds somewhat muted compared to the audio. I wonder whether the addition of video makes it necessary to do more compression in order to transmit the data. Or is it just my ears deceiving me?

Great pianos, prep, and performances!


Thank you very much for your observations. FWIW, in order to get audio to YouTube it had to go through an additional program. Also, the Steingraeber take and the Bose take may be different in the video than in the audio.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
Rich D. #2832010 03/27/19 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich D.
Originally Posted by tend to rush
I imagine Estonia must feel pretty good about this.


I have to agree. Listening to the Estonia 225 was a real eye opener to me. It certainly should be on everyone's list to try when shopping for a piano of this size.

Rich


I think so! If I listed the tier 1 and 2 pianos we have had traded in on Estonias some would be shocked.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
j&j #2832013 03/27/19 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by j&j
Thank you so much Keith, this was fun. So my favorite was the Bosendorfer! Of course.
The reality is I’ll never get a Bösendorfer and I will never play as well as the pianist in those videos. But it is fun to dream.


But my dream it to help you get a Bosendorfer ( or other great piano ) some day! smile C3s are pretty sweet in the mean time.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
BruceD #2832014 03/27/19 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by BruceD
Just accounting for first choices among those who voted in the initial thread:

Steingräber = 9 votes
Estonia = 9 votes
Bösendorfer = 6 votes

Most interesting results!

Regards,


Thanks for the tally. Saved me the trouble!


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
DiarmuidD #2832016 03/27/19 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by DiarmuidD
My favourite turned out to be the Bosie also. I didn't have the courage to actually guess though wink The only thing I was confident of was that there were no Yamaha's or Fazioli's in the mix. Easy to say now of course...


Next time I put put a Yamaha or Fazioli in the mix! Muahahahaha!


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
WhoDwaldi #2832017 03/27/19 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by WhoDwaldi
I favored #2; interesting that it is Estonia. The Steingraeber is different (more mellow) than the examples of the brand that I have heard on other vids. I like mellow, but I think--musically--the Estonia is probably easier to play (from the tone perspective).

Which goes to show that every piano must be considered as an individual. 😁


The pianist found the Estonia a bit more difficult to play than the Steingraeber but nothing that couldn't be addressed.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
dhull100 #2832018 03/27/19 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dhull100
Very interesting, and thanks for this. I preferred the Bosendorfer and Estonia, which is a surprise to me. Never played a Steingraeber.


I hope you get a chance to play a Steingraeber one day. At PianoCraft of course! smile Thanks for comments.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
Erchoukyrie #2832020 03/27/19 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Erchoukyrie
Keith,

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to put this together for us. Most educational as well as entertaining.



You are very welcome. It was most educational and entertaining for me as well.


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
Re: Semi Concert Grand Blind Test pt 2 Reveal
Sanfrancisco #2832022 03/27/19 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Sanfrancisco
Originally Posted by Rich D.
Originally Posted by tend to rush
I imagine Estonia must feel pretty good about this.


I have to agree. Listening to the Estonia 225 was a real eye opener to me. It certainly should be on everyone's list to try when shopping for a piano of this size.

Rich


Keith thank you so much for all the work you put into this very enlightening project. Jin's playing of "The Maiden...no4" was so instructional. Here's an interesting point: Comparing the Estonia 225 to my 210 on the same few measures of The Maiden, the scaling on the 210 is very different. The 210 is more focused with I feel a better treble/bass balance.
I'm usually very methodical with big decisions but I bought the 210 in an out of town showroom (with a plane to catch) after playing it for the first time for only 1/2 hour! The owner drove me in his car at breakneck speed to the airport. The only other major decision I've made at that quickly was when I first met my wife.....


As pianos get larger, balance often becomes more difficult. I have pointed out many times how few manufacturers have what I consider to be successful concert grands even though they may have fantastic smaller pianos.

The Estonia 210 is more consistent than the 225 out of the box but with the right approach the 225s can really shine. Congrats on your 210. We love that piano!


Keith D Kerman
PianoCraft
Rebuilding & Sales - vintage and used Steinway, Mason & Hamlin
New Steingraeber, Estonia, Baldwin
www.pianocraft.net
check out www.sitkadoc.com/ and www.vimeo.com/203188875
www.youtube.com/user/pianocraftchannel

keith@pianocraft.net 888-840-5460
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