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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2830332 03/23/19 09:57 AM
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My headphones are hardly exotic (Audio Technica) but they are 600 ohm. On the Clavinova they do sound quieter than my 32 ohm AKGs but not that much.

I think partly the touch on the much older Clavinova is such that I don't necessarily notice myself playing louder to compensate whereas that is much more apparent on the Hybrid action.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
MacMacMac #2830344 03/23/19 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
CyberGene said that the HD650 phones work with the AG N1X.

Do your specs tell me whether these example phones will work with that piano?

The specs are not from that piano nor from headphones. Yamaha doesn't post amp specs for the N1X. And hidden specs are usually crap specs.

Of course, you can easily check if the HD650 headphones work with the amp from which my posted specs are (Schiit Magni 3, mentioned earlier in this thread):

HD650 impedance: 300 ohms

Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 430mW RMS per channel (= loud)
Output Impedance: Less than 0.3 ohms < 300 ohms (= works perfectly)

See? It's not black magic. smile


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830369 03/23/19 11:10 AM
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Oh, those are headphone amp specs. So you can determine, perhaps, whether phones will work with that amp.

But that doesn't answer my question. I want to know whether the phones will work with my piano ... so that I would not need to buy a headphone amp.

Well ... I've never seen any such specs posted for a piano. So the question remains: How do I know whether phones will work with a piano?

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
MacMacMac #2830374 03/23/19 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Well ... I've never seen any such specs posted for a piano.

For a reason.

Quote
So the question remains: How do I know whether phones will work with a piano?

Well, with no posted specs, you won't know. But you can still make an educated guess:

1. They won't work (work = proper match of amplifier and drivers).
2. Because it's analog, they will still make some kind of noise.

For the typical digital piano customer 2 is enough and they don't notice 1.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
percy64 #2830416 03/23/19 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by percy64
My headphones are hardly exotic (Audio Technica) but they are 600 ohm. On the Clavinova they do sound quieter than my 32 ohm AKGs but not that much.

I think partly the touch on the much older Clavinova is such that I don't necessarily notice myself playing louder to compensate whereas that is much more apparent on the Hybrid action.

Your AT cans are almost monitor headphones in that they have the same impedance as monitors. Of course they cannot be driven by the same amplifier to the same level as your AKGs, But in addition to impedance, when considering how high of a sound pressure level that it will be possible to drive any given pair of headphones from the same amplifier, is the sensitivity of the headphones. Two otherwise comparable headphones with dramatically different sensitivity can also not be driven to identical levels of sound pressure.

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I mean, the headphone amp in the N1X is perfectly capable driving even 300Ω headphones, so apparently there's no need for an external amplification.

You are right but the implication is not necessarily right. As JoeT pointed out above, headphone amplifiers are not scalable in the sense they have a certain output level - voltage gain at the headphone jack. So the N1X built-in amplifier is rated for a certain VRMS output level. This should be enough to drive even 300Ω headphones as you say, or a low impedance set of headphones but not to the same level. It may be enough though.

The key here is not whether it can drive 300Ω headphones of a certain sensitivity (in addition to impedance, it is necessary to consider sensitivity as I mentioned above), the real question is it enough to drive a those headphones to the sound pressure level sought by the user? This is a different question and for this question the answer is most certainly "no" for some sound pressure levels and "yes" for other sound pressure levels. It completely depends on what sound pressure level the user is seeking.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
JoeT #2830417 03/23/19 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
1. They won't work (work = proper match of amplifier and drivers).
2. Because it's analog, they will still make some kind of noise.

For the typical digital piano customer 2 is enough and they don't notice 1.

Wow. I just used a lot more words to say the same thing.... LOL thumb Next time I should read all the posts before responding to any smile


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830432 03/23/19 01:39 PM
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How come this thread became yet another silly headphone talk... It’s either Pianoteq (guilty myself) or headphones. Sigh... frown


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830435 03/23/19 01:42 PM
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Pianoteq is great, headphones are great.

And somehow headphone amps are an issue on the latest Yamaha models (P-515 included). Maybe they changed a supplier?


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2830443 03/23/19 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
How come this thread became yet another silly headphone talk... It’s either Pianoteq (guilty myself) or headphones. Sigh... frown

Because when people spend a lot of money on a piano, they want to enjoy it. And if there are issues with sound, they aren't enjoying it. Sounds for example, like squidbot is not fully enjoying the N1X because the headphones are not being driven to a high enough level. I think it is only natural to talk about those issues that impede full enjoyment of the piano here.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830452 03/23/19 02:31 PM
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I really doubt that the 7506 can’t be driven high by the N1X. I’ve had them briefly and they were certainly MUCH louder than HD650 when hooked to the same amp. I think squidbot meant he doesn’t get comparably loud sound to speakers (whatever that meant). Not that they are not loud enough or it impedes his joy. Maybe he will elaborate more. But the talk is again turning into theory of headphones. It’s just boring smile It might seem like I’m taking a defensive stance, as a current happy N1X owner, but it’s just that I’m already bored to death by the new wave of headphone audiophilia that spreads all over the Internet. It’s not just this forum and I’m not referring to anyone personally, so don’t take offense. People talk about amps and stuff so much that actual music is now something auxiliary to all that. Anyway, anyone’s free to discuss whatever he wants smile


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830455 03/23/19 02:36 PM
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Honestly I love my Superlux hd681 headphones at 32ohms. Cheap, half closed, sound excellent and my cheap Casio piano can drive them.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2830461 03/23/19 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I really doubt that the 7506 can’t be driven high by the N1X. I’ve had them briefly and they were certainly MUCH louder than HD650 when hooked to the same amp. I think squidbot meant he doesn’t get comparably loud sound to speakers (whatever that meant). Not that they are not loud enough or it impedes his joy. Maybe he will elaborate more. But the talk is again turning into theory of headphones. It’s just boring smile It might seem like I’m taking a defensive stance, as a current happy N1X owner, but it’s just that I’m already bored to death by the new wave of headphone audiophilia that spreads all over the Internet. It’s not just this forum and I’m not referring to anyone personally, so don’t take offense. People talk about amps and stuff so much that actual music is now something auxiliary to all that. Anyway, anyone’s free to discuss whatever he wants smile

But that's not it at all. Otherwise you could say the same about DPs and this forum, or acoustics and the acoustic forum, or learning piano and the ABF forum. People often like to talk about their passions, but that's because they are passions. If people actually didn't use their headphones to listen to music or their piano, then they would soon lose interest in talking about the headphones themselves I think - at least for most people. We spend time on headphones because the sound is important to us, but after we attain the sound we like, then we are already happy - and might only talk about it because there are other people who are less happy who we feel we might be able to help (like squidbot smile )


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830475 03/23/19 03:29 PM
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I think I almost completely disagree smile Anyway, peace!


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2830479 03/23/19 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I think I almost completely disagree smile Anyway, peace!

Well, you spend time on this forum talking about digital pianos and hybrids. Could you imagine yourself talking about digital pianos if you actually no longer even use a digital piano? Some day, if by some magic, you have sold your last digital piano and find yourself only with acoustics, would you still expect that you'd spend as much time on this particular forum? Do you think there are people on here who consistently talk about digital pianos who no longer even use digital pianos?

And if you don't think that is true for digital pianos, why do you think it is true for anything else people get interested in?

But if you do think that there are people on this forum who consistently talk about digital pianos, but who no longer even use them, then I count myself surprised, as I don't understand why that would be at all... It seems illogical and not well motivated behavior.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830497 03/23/19 04:08 PM
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I really don’t want to go into this kind of talk. Headphones and audiophilia are a very special case which is hardly comparable to other hobbies. You won’t hear people telling you they’re passionate about DSLR-s or lenses. They will say they like photography. You won’t find people passionate about DIGITAL pianos, or ACOUSTIC pianos. They will just say they like PIANO or even music in a more general sense. However many people are just passionate about headphones, speakers, amps, DAC-s, cables, etc. You won’t hear them talk about music. Even if they do, they usually only pretend wink


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2830503 03/23/19 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I really don’t want to go into this kind of talk. Headphones and audiophilia are a very special case which is hardly comparable to other hobbies. You won’t hear people telling you they’re passionate about DSLR-s or lenses. They will say they like photography. You won’t find people passionate about DIGITAL pianos, or ACOUSTIC pianos. They will just say they like PIANO or even music in a more general sense. However many people are just passionate about headphones, speakers, amps, DAC-s, cables, etc. You won’t hear them talk about music. Even if they do, they usually only pretend wink

Having spent about $45K on audio equipment over the last 30 years, I guess I fall into your group, except until recently on this forum as a matter of fact, I almost never talked about audio equipment, although I've read about it. I have my own setup and listen to my music.

Frankly, I've never met any such audiophiles as you describe personally, although I can imagine them in theory - my wife is in the art business and works with art collectors - some art collectors spend millions on art which they store in special climate controlled warehouses and almost never look at themselves. The description of an audiophile who spends money on equipment and then doesn't use it because they don't appreciate music is a bit like this, and so if art collectors can do it, then why can't certain audiophiles?

I would really like someone to point out some examples of real people who are like this, though. I think the audiophiles you personally know who are like this are something like faux audiophiles or are actually not audiophiles but just have an ungodly amount of money. When a billionaire goes to buy audio equipment, he naturally might buy different stuff than you or I, and why not, if they have the money?


[Linked Image]
across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830514 03/23/19 04:35 PM
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Let’s wait for squidbot to confirm if he indeed can’t drive the 7506 loud enough even at max volume. If that’s the case, he needs an amp, although I would personally check other headphones first and even my hearing because as I said 7506 are very sensitive and it’s very doubtful the N1X can’t drive them to deafening levels.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830518 03/23/19 04:59 PM
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My MDR-7506 isn't very efficient. It needs quite a punch.

Though none of my digitals can drive headphones to deafening levels. I've yet to see that.


Richwood RD-17C-CE | LaMancha Rubi CM-N | Yamaha P-515
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Tyrone Slothrop #2830522 03/23/19 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Frankly, I've never met any such audiophiles as you describe personally, although I can imagine them in theory - my wife is in the art business and works with art collectors - some art collectors spend millions on art which they store in special climate controlled warehouses and almost never look at themselves. The description of an audiophile who spends money on equipment and then doesn't use it because they don't appreciate music is a bit like this, and so if art collectors can do it, then why can't certain audiophiles?

Art collections can be used to hide money, with the added possibility of a decent return on investment.


.... Jeff ▫️ Yamaha P515 ▫️ Roll Tide
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2830551 03/23/19 07:08 PM
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True, true.
Originally Posted by CyberGene
How come this thread became yet another silly headphone talk... It’s either Pianoteq (guilty myself) or headphones. Sigh... frown
This "was" an N1X thread. smile

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