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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Tyrone Slothrop #2830015 03/22/19 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Originally Posted by CyberGene
Audiophiles are people who often think you need to spend thousands for the sound to be good. IMHO it’s a myth one needs a headphone amp to change how headphones will sound.

This is no more unreal then people thinking sampled pianos VSTs sound better than modeled piano VSTs because the sound is fuzzier in the sampled pianos, or people who prefer their pianos to have a detuned sound because the unisons are too pure. Recently, on the acoustic piano forum, there was a mini discussion about a certain acoustic having a "synthetic" (?!?!?!) sound. Audio preference is very individualistic and is indeed real.

The truth is in ABX testing. Audiophiles are notorious for hearing cables and then failing in ABX testing. It’s not simply “preference” smile

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/22/19 01:39 PM.

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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
percy64 #2830016 03/22/19 01:39 PM
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I partly agree. But they just don't do it.
The pianos work fine with most headphones and in most use cases. If they miss your situation (or mine), it's just tough. You buy what's needed to make it work.
Originally Posted by percy64
Seems strange to spend that much on a DP and then have to fork out extra for headphone amp, wireless adaptor etc. You would have thought that Yamaha would have sorted that themselves

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830018 03/22/19 01:45 PM
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I have Shure SRH440 headphones and I don't go past mid volume for fear of damaging my hearing. It's loud at mid volume. If I were to max the volume out with these headphones, it would be intolerably painful.

God Bless,
David

Last edited by David B; 03/22/19 01:47 PM.

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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2830021 03/22/19 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
This is no more unreal then people thinking sampled pianos VSTs sound better than modeled piano VSTs because the sound is fuzzier in the sampled pianos, or people who prefer their pianos to have a detuned sound because the unisons are too pure. Recently, on the acoustic piano forum, there was a mini discussion about a certain acoustic having a "synthetic" (?!?!?!) sound. Audio preference is very individualistic and is indeed real.

The truth is in ABX testing. Audiophiles are notorious for hearing cables and then failing in ABX testing. It’s not simply “preference” smile

Of course. There are many things that are bogus in audiophile-land. But not everything falls into that category. And yes, there is the matter of preference! But of course preference does not cover everything and will not distinguish OFC cables from those made from non OFC copper!


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830037 03/22/19 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by David B
I have Shure SRH440 headphones and I don't go past mid volume for fear of damaging my hearing. It's loud at mid volume. If I were to max the volume out with these headphones, it would be intolerably painful.

God Bless,
David


+1.



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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Tyrone Slothrop #2830122 03/22/19 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by CyberGene
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
This is no more unreal then people thinking sampled pianos VSTs sound better than modeled piano VSTs because the sound is fuzzier in the sampled pianos, or people who prefer their pianos to have a detuned sound because the unisons are too pure. Recently, on the acoustic piano forum, there was a mini discussion about a certain acoustic having a "synthetic" (?!?!?!) sound. Audio preference is very individualistic and is indeed real.

The truth is in ABX testing. Audiophiles are notorious for hearing cables and then failing in ABX testing. It’s not simply “preference” smile

Of course. There are many things that are bogus in audiophile-land. But not everything falls into that category. And yes, there is the matter of preference! But of course preference does not cover everything and will not distinguish OFC cables from those made from non OFC copper!


I have to admit that my joints act up whenever it’s about to rain or I hear music over non OFC copper cables, and even when I hear someone tell me they’re using cheap cables that doesn’t break the bank. Please, for my joints sake, don’t ever mention cables here unless you’ve taken out several mortgages for them!

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830133 03/22/19 06:59 PM
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And why don’t we step up even further and discuss expensive USB cables laugh I personally know a guy who purchased a €1000 USB Audioquest cable and believes it makes a difference to his digital music, using very elaborate terms to describe what it improves wink How about that, huh?

Last edited by CyberGene; 03/22/19 07:00 PM.

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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2830143 03/22/19 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
And why don’t we step up even further and discuss expensive USB cables laugh I personally know a guy who purchased a €1000 USB Audioquest cable and believes it makes a difference to his digital music, using very elaborate terms to describe what it improves wink How about that, huh?

Why discuss? It's obvious to me how such a cable would work. In order to ensure the hygiene of the bits, they are pre-sorted on the cable.

That said, CyberGene, you have some well-heeled friends. Why didn't you offer to build him a very special power conditioner to ensure that no bad electricity sneak into his equipment. You could have charged for this.... how much was your N1X again?


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
CyberGene #2830145 03/22/19 07:22 PM
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Only 1000 EUR? Why cheap out. Please tell him he should go for the REALLY good cables at around 10,000 EUR. smile
Originally Posted by CyberGene
I personally know a guy who purchased a €1000 USB Audioquest cable and believes it makes a difference to his digital music, using very elaborate terms to describe what it improves.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830229 03/23/19 02:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I believe the Squidbot was asking about whether the amp would be powerful enough to drive the headphones to a reasonable level, but his MDR7506 is sensitive enough and the 63Ω low enough that the N1X can drive the headphones to a completely unreasonable volume.


That is what I'm asking, but I don't find the headphones are driven to a reasonable volume, certainly not compared to the CLP-685. What would be the solution for me then? I would like to be able to turn it up a bit more. I'm definitely not getting the same experience of David B ("I have Shure SRH440 headphones and I don't go past mid volume for fear of damaging my hearing. It's loud at mid volume. If I were to max the volume out with these headphones, it would be intolerably painful.") but am in the percy64 situation where they seem low even at max volume.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Chrispy #2830234 03/23/19 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by squidbot
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I believe the Squidbot was asking about whether the amp would be powerful enough to drive the headphones to a reasonable level, but his MDR7506 is sensitive enough and the 63Ω low enough that the N1X can drive the headphones to a completely unreasonable volume.


That is what I'm asking, but I don't find the headphones are driven to a reasonable volume, certainly not compared to the CLP-685. What would be the solution for me then? I would like to be able to turn it up a bit more. I'm definitely not getting the same experience of David B ("I have Shure SRH440 headphones and I don't go past mid volume for fear of damaging my hearing. It's loud at mid volume. If I were to max the volume out with these headphones, it would be intolerably painful.") but am in the percy64 situation where they seem low even at max volume.

Well, the key is the voltage gain. So if the output voltage at VRMS for the headphone output isn't high enough, then you simply won't hear it at hearing-damaging levels. You can calculate the minimum VRMS needed from the amplifier to damage your hearing using this spreadsheet. You already know 2 of the inputs for the spreadsheet, the impedance and sensitivity of headphones. The other thing you'll need is to enter the max sound pressure level you want to achieve (see graph at bottom). The spreadsheet then should tell you the minimum VRMS the amp headphone output needs to produce to attain that sound pressure level. If you want to use a external headphone amp, there are a number of them that would deafen you completely, so you should be able to find one that produces whatever the minimum VRMS is. Note however, possibly to avoid lawsuits, some headphone amps actually have a high gain dipswitch inside the case that you have to turn on, to get the real dangerously high voltage gains. For example, since my headphones have less sensitivity than yours and also a higher impedance, I had to open my headphone amp up so I could access the high gain switch.

(BTW, this is all assuming your headphones behave linearly, which they never do. In particular, they may limit current as the sound pressure level goes up, which will naturally then cap the maximum sound pressure level they can produce. Otherwise the drivers would likely burn out, anyways before you can be deafened.)

P.S. Be safe and do none of this testing with the headphones on your ears! wink


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Tyrone Slothrop #2830237 03/23/19 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If you want to use a external headphone amp, there are a number of them that would deafen you completely, so you should be able to find one that produces whatever the minimum VRMS is.

BTW, before you spend money on an external amp, you should check that your N1X is set properly. I'd contact Yamaha and verify you have set everything correctly for the max headphone output levels, and also, I'd ask tech support to look up what the max headphone output voltage gain level produced by the builtin N1X headphone amp is - that is if this info isn't already in your N1X manual. The typical maximum headphone output voltage will vary from 0.1 to 1.0V RMS, with many headphone amps sitting around a 0.7V RMS level.


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across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830243 03/23/19 04:33 AM
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It's little wonder that there are varying experiences with headphone volume. We are all taught that speakers must be matched to our amplifier and we know not to break that rule, yet we expect any set of headphones to work perfectly in any headphone socket. This, despite the fact that one set of headphones might be 1/10 of the impedance of another. If you think about it that way, you can see that audio companies have to choose a range somewhere in the middle. You can't cover everybody. They are probably limited by some standard to prevent hearing damage so that means you need headphones that sit within the range that Yamaha chose. If not, you have to get another amplifier or another set of headphones. I wouldn't call this a design fault, more of a practical/legal necessity.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
ando #2830256 03/23/19 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by ando
It's little wonder that there are varying experiences with headphone volume. We are all taught that speakers must be matched to our amplifier and we know not to break that rule, yet we expect any set of headphones to work perfectly in any headphone socket. This, despite the fact that one set of headphones might be 1/10 of the impedance of another. If you think about it that way, you can see that audio companies have to choose a range somewhere in the middle. You can't cover everybody. They are probably limited by some standard to prevent hearing damage so that means you need headphones that sit within the range that Yamaha chose. If not, you have to get another amplifier or another set of headphones. I wouldn't call this a design fault, more of a practical/legal necessity.

I agree, which is what I said to squidbot above! But as I said, at least for headphone amps, the manufacturer sometimes hides an adjustment (sometimes a dipswitch or a jumper) which is the "I know what I'm doing" switch for higher voltage gain. wink


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"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
JoeT #2830270 03/23/19 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by arc7urus
I have this amp: https://www.schiit.com/products/magni-1 - it is not easy to get one in the EU as they are often out of stock (they are made in the USA).

It's nowhere to get at all.

What do you mean? They have a dealer in the NL (https://www.schiit-europe.com/) and shipping costs are ca. 5 EUR within the EU. You may have to wait a couple of weeks if the item is not in stock, but you can order any product from their catalogue.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
Chrispy #2830280 03/23/19 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by squidbot
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I believe the Squidbot was asking about whether the amp would be powerful enough to drive the headphones to a reasonable level, but his MDR7506 is sensitive enough and the 63Ω low enough that the N1X can drive the headphones to a completely unreasonable volume.


That is what I'm asking, but I don't find the headphones are driven to a reasonable volume, certainly not compared to the CLP-685. What would be the solution for me then? I would like to be able to turn it up a bit more. I'm definitely not getting the same experience of David B ("I have Shure SRH440 headphones and I don't go past mid volume for fear of damaging my hearing. It's loud at mid volume. If I were to max the volume out with these headphones, it would be intolerably painful.") but am in the percy64 situation where they seem low even at max volume.

I would expect the N1X (or any other DP for that matter) to be capable of driving headphones up to ca. 80 Ohm without the need to crank up the volume to near max. The use case for an external amp applies when connecting 200+ Ohm headphones to portable devices and other equipment that lacks the proper amplification circuitry. In my case, the 250 Ohm headphones sound low even at max volume. But the major issue is not the volume but the quality of the sound, since it loses spatiality and becomes "muddy", especially the lower freqs. With the external amp, I am able to get a clear sound regardless of the volume. Btw, if I connect low impedance headphones to the amp I cannot tell the difference.

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830307 03/23/19 08:51 AM
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I'm currently using my HD-650-s (300Ω) at around 80-90% volume and the sound is very clean. There's no muddy sound, there's no lack of separation or any distortions at all. I mean, the headphone amp in the N1X is perfectly capable driving even 300Ω headphones, so apparently there's no need for an external amplification. Most probably the piano will be able to drive almost every possible headphones except for some exotic high-impedance 600Ω headphones, etc. The headphone amp is apparently up tp the task.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830311 03/23/19 09:02 AM
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That's surprising, CG. But it's useful information.

Ya know ... with all the possible pianos and all the possible headphones ... how is anyone to know whether given phones will work well with a given piano?
Perhaps discoveries, such as yours, should be compiled for reference?
Your information is not the first and will not be the last ... but it will disappear from public knowledge all too quickly if it's not kept visible somehow. frown

Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
MacMacMac #2830318 03/23/19 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Ya know ... with all the possible pianos and all the possible headphones ... how is anyone to know whether given phones will work well with a given piano?

Simple: Check the technical specification of the headphones amplifier. These need to be provided by the manufacturer obviously. Here is an example:

Frequency Response: 20Hz-20Khz, -0.1db, 2Hz-900KHz, -3dB
Maximum Power, 16 ohms: 3W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 2W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 1.3W RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 300 ohms: 430mW RMS per channel
Maximum Power, 600 ohms: 230mW RMS per channel
THD: Less than 0.001%, 20Hz-20KHz, at 1V RMS, less than 0.02% at 5V RMS into 32 ohms
IMD: Less than 0.001%, CCIF
SNR: Greater than 108db, unweighted, referenced to 1V RMS
Crosstalk: -70dB, 20 Hz-20KHz
Output Impedance: Less than 0.3 ohms

Obviously digital pianos do not provide these specs, because their headphones amps are afterthoughts no "reviewer" ever wastes a single second with (just like with the built-in speakers). On those fancy YouTube videos, you can see every gear wired up through the LINE OUTs. This is how they listen to those products and this is how the YouTube audience listens to the products.


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Re: Yamaha AvantGrand N1X - Hands On
David B #2830330 03/23/19 09:55 AM
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CyberGene said that the HD650 phones work with the AG N1X.

Do your specs tell me whether these example phones will work with that piano?

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