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Hanon book one finished. Transpose? #2829744
03/21/19 11:38 PM
03/21/19 11:38 PM
Joined: Jun 2017
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Hotstrings Offline OP
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I have only been playing and studying piano for about a year and a half. Finished book one of Hanon and now teacher recommends I go back and learn exercises in ALL keys.
I thought Hanon exercises were mainly for warming up?I do plenty of other scales and cycles in all keys so I’m not sure of the benefit?
Thanks.

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Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Hotstrings] #2829768
03/22/19 01:33 AM
03/22/19 01:33 AM
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I feel sorry for you that your teacher is not more imaginative than asking you to go through all of the first book of Hanon in all keys! Are you paying him/her money for this kind of advice and teaching?

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Hotstrings] #2829770
03/22/19 01:48 AM
03/22/19 01:48 AM
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Hotstrings
Finished book one of Hanon and now teacher recommends I go back and learn exercises in ALL keys.

I found out first hand that transposing Hanon to other keys without changing all the fingering requires playing very close to the fallboard in some of the keys, awkwardly so, because fingers 1 & 5 will end up on black keys with fingers 2-4 sometimes on whites. Feels spider-like skittering over the keys like this, and I'm doubtful this is in good form. You should have your teacher spell out the fingering and explain how to play those that are awkward this way, and how to move fingers, such as finger 4 in particular, over black keys when you are pressed up against the fallboard.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Hotstrings] #2829781
03/22/19 03:28 AM
03/22/19 03:28 AM
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I know people who gave up the piano (and have no fond memory of learning piano at all, in fact quite the opposite), just because of Hanon being forced on them week in and week out...

As I understand it, there are camps on either side of the fence whether there is any benefit on learning Hanon let alone transposing all the exercises in other keys...on a personal level, I'd like to refer you to the advice Graham Fitch gave in one of his Pianist videos here.

It's an interesting watch, especially to hear the origins and the evolution etc. Be your own judge as to whether you find them beneficial or not...as I was; I started learning them on my own but my teacher said only do some as part of a warm-up and if you can find ones that help on some of the pieces you are learning even better (e.g. exercise one can help a little with learning Burgmuller's Arabesque - especially the resolute ending..)

Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Hotstrings] #2829788
03/22/19 04:49 AM
03/22/19 04:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,678
Groove On Offline
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Originally Posted by Hotstrings
I have only been playing and studying piano for about a year and a half. Finished book one of Hanon and now teacher recommends I go back and learn exercises in ALL keys.
I thought Hanon exercises were mainly for warming up?I do plenty of other scales and cycles in all keys so I’m not sure of the benefit?
Thanks.

There are many reasons Hanon could be assigned. Some questions you might want to ask your teacher to clarify what they expect:
- How exactly did your teacher say you should do them?
- Was it a general recommendation or was there a specific goal?
- Did they recommend it as a short warmup or as a longer study?
- Are they perhaps assigning it as a way to further develop your physical skills?

Not necessary to answer here, but it would be interesting to find out.


We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams.
Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2829789
03/22/19 04:52 AM
03/22/19 04:52 AM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,252
Moscow, Russia
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Iaroslav Vasiliev Offline
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Playing Hanon in other keys is essential in my opinion. Other keys is where real benefit begins, because while playing in С major you're playing mostly using fixed hand positions, but while playing in other keys you learn to adjust hand position before every note, and this is all it is about.

Just don't forget to play musically. wink

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Hotstrings
Finished book one of Hanon and now teacher recommends I go back and learn exercises in ALL keys.

I found out first hand that transposing Hanon to other keys without changing all the fingering requires playing very close to the fallboard in some of the keys, awkwardly so, because fingers 1 & 5 will end up on black keys with fingers 2-4 sometimes on whites. Feels spider-like skittering over the keys like this, and I'm doubtful this is in good form. You should have your teacher spell out the fingering and explain how to play those that are awkward this way, and how to move fingers, such as finger 4 in particular, over black keys when you are pressed up against the fallboard.

I'm sorry to say that but it seems that you don't play it correctly. The fingering remains the same in every key. The goal of this training is to learn to adjust hand position for every note. So every time the 1st or the 5th finger must play a black key the hand moves forward to the fallboard, immediately after that the hand moves backwards to allow other fingers to play comfortably. The hand shouldn't stay in a fixed spider-like position near the fallboard, no finger depresses white key in-between black keys.

Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Hotstrings] #2829815
03/22/19 07:25 AM
03/22/19 07:25 AM
Joined: May 2001
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New York City
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The idea that a person with 1.5 years experience should spend time playing Hanon in all keys is ludicrous IMO. At that point in the learning experience there are MUCH more important things to spend one's time on although I doubt many would agree that playing Hanon in all keys is appropriate for a pianist of any experience.

Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Hotstrings] #2829817
03/22/19 07:32 AM
03/22/19 07:32 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 3,162
Florida
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I agree there must be better ways to spend the time. That’s a tremendous undertaking. The entire set in all 12 (major I assume) keys? No thanks.


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Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Hotstrings] #2829824
03/22/19 07:57 AM
03/22/19 07:57 AM
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 1,958
LA County, California
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Put the Hanon notes into the Bach AI Harmonizer from yesterday and then play that. It's a lot more interesting.


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Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: pianoloverus] #2829910
03/22/19 11:08 AM
03/22/19 11:08 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,023
Boynton Beach, FL
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
The idea that a person with 1.5 years experience should spend time playing Hanon in all keys is ludicrous IMO. At that point in the learning experience there are MUCH more important things to spend one's time on although I doubt many would agree that playing Hanon in all keys is appropriate for a pianist of any experience.


I agree. I think for a beginner, this is overkill, and there are much more rewarding and helpful things to do. I do wonder if the teacher said this just because it's what she always prescribes, or if she is trying to address something in particular.

Groove On gives some pretty good questions to ask that are reasonable.


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Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Iaroslav Vasiliev] #2829913
03/22/19 11:13 AM
03/22/19 11:13 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,035
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I found out first hand that transposing Hanon to other keys without changing all the fingering requires playing very close to the fallboard in some of the keys, awkwardly so, because fingers 1 & 5 will end up on black keys with fingers 2-4 sometimes on whites. Feels spider-like skittering over the keys like this, and I'm doubtful this is in good form. You should have your teacher spell out the fingering and explain how to play those that are awkward this way, and how to move fingers, such as finger 4 in particular, over black keys when you are pressed up against the fallboard.

I'm sorry to say that but it seems that you don't play it correctly. The fingering remains the same in every key. The goal of this training is to learn to adjust hand position for every note. So every time the 1st or the 5th finger must play a black key the hand moves forward to the fallboard, immediately after that the hand moves backwards to allow other fingers to play comfortably. The hand shouldn't stay in a fixed spider-like position near the fallboard, no finger depresses white key in-between black keys.

But you see, that is what apparently Hotstrings should have been shown by the teacher. Because it is unreasonable that a student should have to figure out that one needs to be constantly moving in and out of the keys by themselves when they have 6 months learning experience at piano - that's something the teacher should be showing Hotstrings. How to actually play these when the scores aren't written for them, the fingering is not explained, and the entire motion of moving in and out isn't discussed in Hanon.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Hotstrings] #2830038
03/22/19 02:19 PM
03/22/19 02:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 74
Left Coast of US
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Docbop Offline
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I'm still very beginner and have been playing Hanon in multiple keys and think it is valuable to do. It does get you thinking about fingering concepts and to see/hear the patterns and transpose by ear to the new key. I think when you transpose you get far more out of a exercise or piece of music than wiggling your fingers.

Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: cmb13] #2830040
03/22/19 02:23 PM
03/22/19 02:23 PM
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Posts: 1,252
Moscow, Russia
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Iaroslav Vasiliev Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
But you see, that is what apparently Hotstrings should have been shown by the teacher. Because it is unreasonable that a student should have to figure out that one needs to be constantly moving in and out of the keys by themselves when they have 6 months learning experience at piano - that's something the teacher should be showing Hotstrings. How to actually play these when the scores aren't written for them, the fingering is not explained, and the entire motion of moving in and out isn't discussed in Hanon.

Agree.

Originally Posted by cmb13
I agree there must be better ways to spend the time. That’s a tremendous undertaking. The entire set in all 12 (major I assume) keys? No thanks.

Yes, it's not efficient to learn to play in all 12 keys at once. Keys should be studied one by one, spending probably a month on each key to learn its 'topography' well. But the 'topography' learned that way is a great advantage in my opinion, especially when transposing on-the-fly by looking at the original score, no scale will bring that degree of knowledge of a key.

Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Docbop] #2830082
03/22/19 03:37 PM
03/22/19 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Docbop
I'm still very beginner and have been playing Hanon in multiple keys and think it is valuable to do. It does get you thinking about fingering concepts and to see/hear the patterns and transpose by ear to the new key. I think when you transpose you get far more out of a exercise or piece of music than wiggling your fingers.

If your main interest is jazz, maybe.

Otherwise, it's pointless for a beginner. Or even intermediate. You'd learn much, much more from suitable pieces that teach new concepts and new techniques.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Hotstrings] #2830172
03/22/19 09:25 PM
03/22/19 09:25 PM
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Hotstrings Offline OP
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Wow thanks for all the suggestions. I learned so much from just reading posts. Will try to clarify best I can, as I had a lesson last night.
Teacher wanted me to transpose BUT not in all keys. Start with G one sharp , etc.
I guess it s relevant that I got bit by the piano bug at age 72 after being a guitarist for over 60 years.
Yes, my main interest is jazz. I am obsessed as I practice in 8 arenas of music 4-6 hours every day, 7 days a week..My teacher creates and writes everything. Hanon only book I bought. I love it. Having five fingers on my left hand is just super cool. I am blessed with a fairly good knowledge of chord theory from playing guitar. That helps with chord decorating. For some reason my guitar playing has exploded when I play. However my ear is not nearly as good on guitar. Much better on piano. Maybe because it is so parallel? next to guitar.
My teacher is at least 75 and he, himself,studies classical with someone who is 90.

As far as the comment about do I pay him ,etc. Absolutely. ($100 hr —weekly private lessons) I learned guitar from the Masters in New Orleans and one things for sure: Spend as much as you can afford for the. best teacher within A reasonable distance. My teacher has a Masters in music and identifies with the. Bill Evans genre. I love it because it introduces me to a lot of beautiful music slow enough for me to handle it.
I did not mean to imply that my teacher was unimaginative as he is totally the opposite.Experience as a jazz pianist all his life, he comes with what I call the hidden treasures. Information, ideas and theory that one does not often get in other settings. I taught guitar for 25 years and quickly realized the value of field experience.

I know I will never play piano like I do guitar but sometimes I do amaze myself. My goal is simply to deliver one nice jazz set. I have no delusions of grandeur of actually playing gigs.
Thanks again for all the great advice.

Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: bennevis] #2830430
03/23/19 01:33 PM
03/23/19 01:33 PM
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Docbop Offline
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Docbop
I'm still very beginner and have been playing Hanon in multiple keys and think it is valuable to do. It does get you thinking about fingering concepts and to see/hear the patterns and transpose by ear to the new key. I think when you transpose you get far more out of a exercise or piece of music than wiggling your fingers.

If your main interest is jazz, maybe.

Otherwise, it's pointless for a beginner. Or even intermediate. You'd learn much, much more from suitable pieces that teach new concepts and new techniques.


Developing ear and becoming better at fingering concepts helps any genre of piano playing.

Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Docbop] #2830438
03/23/19 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Docbop


I'm still very beginner and have been playing Hanon in multiple keys and think it is valuable to do.

Developing ear and becoming better at fingering concepts helps any genre of piano playing.

For classical piano, playing the scale of (say) D flat using the same fingering as for C major does nothing to help with understanding and developing fingering concepts. (In fact, it will destroy them). Same with playing Hanon using the same fingerings in all keys.

Sure, for jazz, when you have to transpose on the fly, that's the 'easiest' fingering to use, because you don't have to think about it, but then you're not too bothered with the kind of stuff that concerns classical musicians.

In classical, you need to develop an instinctive grasp of the best fingering for any situation to ensure smooth phrasing and legato lines - or smooth and even staccato, as the case may be. That's part of the reason why classical pianists learn fingerings for each (group of) scales and arpeggios.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Hotstrings] #2830547
03/23/19 07:00 PM
03/23/19 07:00 PM
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Posts: 5,070
Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Online content
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Originally Posted by bennevis
For classical piano, playing the scale of (say) D flat using the same fingering as for C major does nothing to help with understanding and developing fingering concepts. (In fact, it will destroy them). Same with playing Hanon using the same fingerings in all keys.

Sure, for jazz, when you have to transpose on the fly, that's the 'easiest' fingering to use, because you don't have to think about it, but then you're not too bothered with the kind of stuff that concerns classical musicians.


I believe there's a "school" of jazz fingering that encourages using the same fingering for all keys. So _some people_ would think that Hanon (with marked fingering, transposed) is worth doing.

Many exercises in Hanon are _unplayable_ (I think) if you transpose, and try to use "classical scale fingerings". But you can do them if you're willing to use "RH -- thumb on tonic; LH -- pinkie on tonic". Cramped, "unnatural", "inefficient" -- all true. But your fingers will learn to work in ways that "classical fingering" tries to avoid, _but that are sometimes necessary_.

Whether that's a good use of time for a beginner, I don't know. G and F aren't trouble. Gb and B -- not so easy!


. Charles
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Re: Hanon book one finished. Transpose? [Re: Charles Cohen] #2830566
03/23/19 07:51 PM
03/23/19 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Cohen
Many exercises in Hanon are _unplayable_ (I think) if you transpose, and try to use "classical scale fingerings". But you can do them if you're willing to use "RH -- thumb on tonic; LH -- pinkie on tonic". Cramped, "unnatural", "inefficient" -- all true.

Since this thread popped up two days ago, I was imagining how one would even use traditional fingering for Hanon. For example, take A♭ Major and Hanon No. 1 let's just say - I tried using traditional fingering for A♭ Major scale, and I had trouble getting past even the 5th measure. Amazingly awkward.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14

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