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Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Cavokk] #2829096 03/20/19 12:53 PM
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JoeT Offline
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Originally Posted by Cavokk

The UR22 should be fine as a MIDI interface but I doubt you will see any real improvement in latency when using it as AUDIO output as your latency issues probably comes back to the part where USB 1,2 and 3 technology unfortunately is suffering (USB 3.1 with Thunderbolt is another story).

Please explain how USB is causing latency.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
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Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: IosPlayer] #2829101 03/20/19 01:02 PM
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Jethro Offline OP
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Originally Posted by IosPlayer
No problem, Jethro. We love this madness. Why don’t you A-B the UR12 and the PlugKey, then return the lesser. I think this is important and the only real variable in what you will hear out of the iPad since you have the sound system in place. My sonic knowledge is limited, but I would think the quality of the preamps matter.

You're always a step ahead of me I was thinking the same thing, but I would have to spend a little more to get a lightning to USB cable. But I think you're point is valid. I may just do that. They cost about the same otherwise.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Jethro] #2829110 03/20/19 01:28 PM
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Jethro Offline OP
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Iosplayer, I think it will come down to Ravencroft IOS app with my ipad pro versus pianoteq on the mac mini.

My ipad pro only has 32 GB of memory so I am a little skeptical. The mac mini has a 2.5 Ghz i5 intel processor with a 500 GB SSD and 8 GB of Ram. The latter option should work without a problem based on the fact that I read people are using Core 2 duos with Pianoteq and good success.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Jethro] #2829124 03/20/19 02:05 PM
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IosPlayer Offline
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You will get a great result with a mini and PianoTeq, Jethro. Or another VST. 32 gb will run several iOS pianos, no problem, but if you have the ability to use VSTs go for it!


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Jethro] #2829130 03/20/19 02:28 PM
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I am running some more demanding virtual pianos (VSL Synchron, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX) on my i5, 8GB. Ravenscroft is ok on such a configuration.

But I musn’t load other application (Firefox will quickly grab too much memory).


Yamaha CLP150, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX, Ivory II pianos, Galaxy pianos, EWQL Pianos, Native-Instrument The Definitive Piano Collection, Soniccouture Hammersmith, Truekeys, Pianoteq
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: IosPlayer] #2829133 03/20/19 02:41 PM
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Jethro Offline OP
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Originally Posted by IosPlayer
You will get a great result with a mini and PianoTeq, Jethro. Or another VST. 32 gb will run several iOS pianos, no problem, but if you have the ability to use VSTs go for it!


Ok this is good to know. I will give the Ravenscroft IOS a try first and see how it goes. That would be my preference.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Frédéric L] #2829134 03/20/19 02:41 PM
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Jethro Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Frédéric L
I am running some more demanding virtual pianos (VSL Synchron, Bechstein Digital Grand, Garritan CFX) on my i5, 8GB. Ravenscroft is ok on such a configuration.

But I musn’t load other application (Firefox will quickly grab too much memory).

Thanks for the input. Good to know I already have the horsepower.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: JoeT] #2829170 03/20/19 03:54 PM
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Cavokk Offline
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Cavokk

The UR22 should be fine as a MIDI interface but I doubt you will see any real improvement in latency when using it as AUDIO output as your latency issues probably comes back to the part where USB 1,2 and 3 technology unfortunately is suffering (USB 3.1 with Thunderbolt is another story).

Please explain how USB is causing latency.



Hi Joe.

There is a lot technical explanations available on the difference in latency in audio equipment using USB vs Thunderbolt which you can look up. Thunderbolt like USB has inherent latency but from a purely technical perspective Thunderbolt has the lowest theoretical internal overhead and latency mainly due to the fact that it is almost a PCIe in a cable with VERY low internal latency to the CPU it self AND has very high bandwidth... This alone allows you to select a lower sample buffer in the drivers as the PC/Thunderbolt system more easily can cope with the demand and still sound perfect without clicks (missing samples) compared to USB.

The difference in theoretical latency might not be higher than 3-4ms in roundtrip delay but if you take into account that humans can detect latency's around 10ms ish then every millisecond counts when you add up the numbers.. laugh

When implemented in an optimal way (read: very good drivers like RME) USB can be adequate for mealtime triggering of VST's with very little perceived latency. I am mostly speaking out of personal experience from triggering drum VST´s in real time where I have tried several USB interfaces - all with clearly perceptible latency. Going to a simple Thunderbolt interface (Zoom TAC-2) gave me for the first time ZERO perceptible latency and I have never looked back since...

So yes I clearly recommend anyone with Audio latency issues to at least try a Thunderbolt interface before giving up.

C.

Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Jethro] #2829210 03/20/19 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Jethro
So now that I have confused anyone following this thread. Most likely I'm going to go with the Korg Plug Key to interface between my VPC-1 and an ipad/imini to try IOS applications and to save the cost of an extra lightning cable but I will most likely just monitor directly from the mac mini headphone jack or monitor from a mixer's pre amps receiving audio input from the mac mini headphone jack. Again all I'm concerned with is live monitoring as I play the keyboard.


That's pretty expensive. I hook up my iPad to my MP6 via the USB port using Apple's USB -> Lightning adapter and run any MIDI application with it.

Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Jethro] #2829213 03/20/19 06:09 PM
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I am using this lightning adapter, and it works great with my iPad and my iPhone. No glitches, using Pianoteq trial version or the full version of iGrand Piano, on either device, on two different Dp's. I can also charge while using it:

iPad camera adapter


Beardog
1903 Steinway A
1975 Yamaha Studio Upright
Korg G1 Air
Kawai KDP110
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Jethro] #2829222 03/20/19 06:32 PM
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IosPlayer Offline
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You are fortunate, Beardog, folks often have problems with third party CCK simulacra, but it looks good, and, yup, that's how it works. There is a pianoteq app?!


Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Beardog] #2829225 03/20/19 06:35 PM
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DPAfficionado Offline
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Hi Beardog

How did you manage to get Pianoteq trial version working in your iPad and iPhone?

Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Jethro] #2829229 03/20/19 07:03 PM
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Jazz at www.newartistsrecords.com. Search Michael Levy. Use Safari for free tracks.
https://soundcloud.com/michael-levy-387395070
1915 Steinway B, Kawai MP11se, Casio AT5
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Beardog] #2829239 03/20/19 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Beardog
I am using this lightning adapter, and it works great with my iPad and my iPhone. No glitches, using Pianoteq trial version or the full version of iGrand Piano, on either device, on two different Dp's. I can also charge while using it:

iPad camera adapter


You're playing with fire my friend! :P Hope it works for you, but I've been burned by 3rd party iPhone stuff so I pay a little more for stuff straight from Apple. I'll give it a try however, could use another one.

Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: DPAfficionado] #2829240 03/20/19 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DPAfficionado
Hi Beardog

How did you manage to get Pianoteq trial version working in your iPad and iPhone?


Sorry, too many devices and apps to keep straight! I have Pianoteq running on my MacBook Pro.


Beardog
1903 Steinway A
1975 Yamaha Studio Upright
Korg G1 Air
Kawai KDP110
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2829241 03/20/19 07:51 PM
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Beardog Offline
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Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
Originally Posted by Beardog
I am using this lightning adapter, and it works great with my iPad and my iPhone. No glitches, using Pianoteq trial version or the full version of iGrand Piano, on either device, on two different Dp's. I can also charge while using it:

iPad camera adapter


You're playing with fire my friend! :P Hope it works for you, but I've been burned by 3rd party iPhone stuff so I pay a little more for stuff straight from Apple.


Playing with fire how? As in ruining an iPhone/iPad/MacBook? My experience has been that if something works, no problem. If it doesn't work, toss it. Did you ruin something, or just got burned paying for something that didn't work? Now you have me worried!!


Beardog
1903 Steinway A
1975 Yamaha Studio Upright
Korg G1 Air
Kawai KDP110
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Beardog] #2829251 03/20/19 08:35 PM
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AnthonyPaulO Offline
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Originally Posted by Beardog

Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
Originally Posted by Beardog
I am using this lightning adapter, and it works great with my iPad and my iPhone. No glitches, using Pianoteq trial version or the full version of iGrand Piano, on either device, on two different Dp's. I can also charge while using it:

iPad camera adapter


You're playing with fire my friend! :P Hope it works for you, but I've been burned by 3rd party iPhone stuff so I pay a little more for stuff straight from Apple.


Playing with fire how? As in ruining an iPhone/iPad/MacBook? My experience has been that if something works, no problem. If it doesn't work, toss it. Did you ruin something, or just got burned paying for something that didn't work? Now you have me worried!!


Haha! no no no, nothing that bad, no need to worry! Just that for some reason these damn 3rd party iPhone cable knockoffs seem to have serious quality control issues.

Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2829262 03/20/19 09:30 PM
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Beardog Offline
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Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
Originally Posted by Beardog

Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
Originally Posted by Beardog
I am using this lightning adapter, and it works great with my iPad and my iPhone. No glitches, using Pianoteq trial version or the full version of iGrand Piano, on either device, on two different Dp's. I can also charge while using it:

iPad camera adapter


You're playing with fire my friend! :P Hope it works for you, but I've been burned by 3rd party iPhone stuff so I pay a little more for stuff straight from Apple.


Playing with fire how? As in ruining an iPhone/iPad/MacBook? My experience has been that if something works, no problem. If it doesn't work, toss it. Did you ruin something, or just got burned paying for something that didn't work? Now you have me worried!!


Haha! no no no, nothing that bad, no need to worry! Just that for some reason these damn 3rd party iPhone cable knockoffs seem to have serious quality control issues.


OK. I feel better! I don’t mind throwing away a $20 off-brand connector if it goes bad. Just didn’t want to throw away an iPad! 😂


Beardog
1903 Steinway A
1975 Yamaha Studio Upright
Korg G1 Air
Kawai KDP110
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: AnthonyPaulO] #2829264 03/20/19 09:41 PM
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Jethro Offline OP
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Originally Posted by AnthonyPaulO
Originally Posted by Jethro
So now that I have confused anyone following this thread. Most likely I'm going to go with the Korg Plug Key to interface between my VPC-1 and an ipad/imini to try IOS applications and to save the cost of an extra lightning cable but I will most likely just monitor directly from the mac mini headphone jack or monitor from a mixer's pre amps receiving audio input from the mac mini headphone jack. Again all I'm concerned with is live monitoring as I play the keyboard.


That's pretty expensive. I hook up my iPad to my MP6 via the USB port using Apple's USB -> Lightning adapter and run any MIDI application with it.

Yes that's a good option, but I like the 1/4 inch L/R output jacks on the plugkey. They fit better in my system as I could plug the ipad's sound output directly into my powered amp that also provides phantom power for a mic. I also like to protect my ipad's headphone jack as it's not a very robust jack. The Korg plug key reroutes and disables the Ipad's audio to the headphone jack and/or 1/4 line outputs that are directly controlled by the volume knob on the device rather than the volume switches on the ipad.


Working on:

Bach/Busoni Chaconne in D minor BWV 1004
Chopin: G Minor Ballade
Schumann/Liszt Widmung

Shigeru Kawai SK2
Kawai VPC-1
Re: Best digital piano action under $2500? [Re: Jethro] #2829310 03/21/19 01:17 AM
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Jethro, starting playing a good piano plugin using VPC1 is quite simple. All you need is:

1) $5 USB printer cable for connecting your VPC1 to your Mac;

2) A DAW. I recommend free-downloadable $60 Reaper, which has free 60 days legal trial period.

3). Some $100 piano plugin from the Pianoteq set, or $200 Ravenscroft 275. BTW, demo versions of Pianoteq pianos (with some keys disabled) are downloadable for free. There exist lots of beautifully sounding and professionally playable piano plugins. Today my favorite is the Ravenscroft. It has the best Una Corda mode I encountered.

4). Chances are, you will not need a USB audio interface. To some extent, piano is tolerant to some latency. Even acoustic pianos have a latency related to their complex mechanics and inertia. Still, I am using Focusrite Scarlett AI. You received very professional advises from Cavokk.

Forget all mobile IOS-related staff, which only distracts you from really important products. It is impossible to resolve too many problems simultaneously.

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