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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828594
03/19/19 10:01 AM
03/19/19 10:01 AM
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Let me just duck in here and point something out:

Not all music teachers in the United States have formal training in pedagogy. Some do, some don't. There are no formal requirements. And most Americans have no idea about ABRSM, TCL, RCM, etc. I have NEVER once had a student (or parents) come to me requesting to do exams, and precious few who were interested once I offered them as an option.

Also, I have NEVER had a student (or parents) ask about any formal qualifications. Most of them don't even ask me to play for them (which has always seemed odd to me).

I have a little formal pedagogical training, but I didn't study it in college. I am continuing to pick up ideas and techniques from local colleagues.


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Baldwin SD-10 Concert Grand "Kuroneko", Baldwin Upright, Yamaha P-255
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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828595
03/19/19 10:04 AM
03/19/19 10:04 AM
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I'm still waiting for some offended guitar teacher to weigh in, since they were disparaged more clearly than US piano teachers earlier in the thread. But it's just as well if they are not here to be insulted.

None of it related to you, of course, ShyPianist.

Amazing that anyone ever learned to play an instrument before there were courses and certifications in pedagogy!


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Schubert, Op. 90 no. 2
Sinding, Frühlingsrauschen (Rustle of Spring)
Beethoven, Sonata no. 14 in C# minor (Moonlight)
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828598
03/19/19 10:13 AM
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Methinks all students should have studied studentship (unfortunately, that's not been glorified with a Greek or Latin-derived snooty term, though I'm working on it) before they became students, so that they know how to be students.

After all, it's not given to everyone to be good students.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828600
03/19/19 10:15 AM
03/19/19 10:15 AM
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Last edited by KevinM; 03/19/19 10:16 AM.

Learning Mendelssohn Song without Words Op. 19 No. 2, Schumann Bunte Blätter Stücklein Op. 99 No. 1. Jensen Sehnsucht Op. 8 No. 5. Schumann Kinderszenen Op15 No1, Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen.
Digital piano: Casio Celviano AP-470. Headphones: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828601
03/19/19 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist

I'm a grown woman and as a working mother I'm perfectly well used to being negatively judged for whatever I do. It's wrong, but that's life. :-)



I was not trying to be a white knight and come to your defence, that would be a presumption. This thread just felt like to me a perfect example of my experience of what I feel is wrong with the dynamic of the Piano World forums. But I suppose I'm living in my own dreamworld when I think it could change.

I'm glad that you have got useful information out of it. Just annoying you had to go through being pre-judged to get there.

Last edited by KevinM; 03/19/19 10:19 AM.

Learning Mendelssohn Song without Words Op. 19 No. 2, Schumann Bunte Blätter Stücklein Op. 99 No. 1. Jensen Sehnsucht Op. 8 No. 5. Schumann Kinderszenen Op15 No1, Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen.
Digital piano: Casio Celviano AP-470. Headphones: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828611
03/19/19 10:30 AM
03/19/19 10:30 AM
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I was not trying to be a white knight and come to your defence, that would be a presumption. This thread just felt like to me a perfect example of my experience of what I feel is wrong with the dynamic of the Piano World forums. But I suppose I'm living in my own dreamworld when I think it could change.


I know, but I appreciate it all the same.:-)

Yes this is a funny place. Kind of addictive in some ways, some great characters, interesting threads and some really helpful people, and then some really strange passive aggressive/judgemental/defensive stuff going on too.


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: bennevis] #2828613
03/19/19 10:32 AM
03/19/19 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Methinks all students should have studied studentship.... .


I don't know if this was meant tongue in cheek. However,I'll take up the thought in seriousness. Part of a teacher's role is to teach students how to work with them in lessons, and how to approach practising at home. If the student is young so that parents have a role, there should be guidance in that matter as well. The study of studentship is done with the student's teacher.

Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: keystring] #2828625
03/19/19 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by bennevis
Methinks all students should have studied studentship.... .


I don't know if this was meant tongue in cheek. However,I'll take up the thought in seriousness. Part of a teacher's role is to teach students how to work with them in lessons, and how to approach practising at home. If the student is young so that parents have a role, there should be guidance in that matter as well. The study of studentship is done with the student's teacher.


Oh certainly. A study of child development and psychology is surely a key part of learning to teach in any structured sense, just as if one is training to be a school teacher. I also believe, perhaps with the rose-coloured glasses of the unrealistic beginner, I don't know, that an interest in the child as a person, as a whole being, is important. I've read quite a lot from teachers recently, on here and elsewhere, where there are comments along the lines of "I have them for an hour to teach them piano, the rest of it is none of my business/not my problem/insert other jaded comment here". Not true. If a child/teenager is stressed during lessons, not practising, seem not to be themselves, then it is part of the job of their teacher to figure out why and adapt accordingly. In my untrained opinion. ;-)


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: KevinM] #2828656
03/19/19 12:28 PM
03/19/19 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by KevinM
That pedagogy here in the UK is not formalised here as part of the qualification for teacher training as it is rightly so in the USA. It feels like the teachers from the US are just wanting to lord it over how superior their training is rather than thinking about how to help with practical answers to ...

...(Personally I've learnt about the importance of Pedagogy to learning)...

One thing I've learned from this thread is that in the UK, it appears there is less of an association between "pedagogy" and "teaching".

As perhaps mentioned already in the thread above, it's amazing to me that people that share a common language can just not share a common understanding of what a word like "pedagogy" means. From this thread, I feel like "pedagogy" isn't so much a different word on the two sides of the Atlantic like bonnet vs. hood of an automobile, but simply carries a different sense on each side.

I wondered why this may be so since I was under the impression that there were certifications in piano pedagogy in all three of RCM, ABRSM, and Trinity, but I checked right now and I have trouble even finding the ABRSM version of this and instead found this page which suggests they are only "gaining popularity", implying they aren't so popular. I note that Trinity's version also seems to just be called a "teaching diploma", and unless I am finding the wrong thing, both ABRSM and Trinity's "teaching diplomas" seem to not be specific to piano but generalized to all instruments.

On the other hand, it does appear that in North America, "pedagogy" is "a thing." The North American RCM piano pedagogy certification (as it is called in RCM instead of just "teaching") has a syllabus which is piano-specific and not generalized to all instruments.

For example, I'm looking at the piano-specific topics in the diploma include (from pp. 9 &12 of piano pedagogy syllabus): developing healthy technique and physiology, including posture, hand position, thumb movement, and finger movement; developing basic motor skills, technical control, finger strength, and hand independence; basic touches (legato and staccato); fingering strategies; approaches to tone production; stylistic awareness (teaching phrasing, articulation, ornamentation, pedaling, tempo rubato, and rhythmic flexibility specific to each style period and type of piece); introducing and teaching ornamentation; and developing dynamic range, voicing, and balance. These do seem rather specific to piano and not just general "music instrument learning" stuff.

I don't see anything like that level of piano-specific detail in what I can find on the ABRSM instrumental teaching certificates (and again, possibly I'm just looking in the wrong places). So now I'm really wondering if this pedagogy vs teach issue is one of those tomAto/tomaato things and people on this thread are not sharing a common understanding of "piano pedagogy" and "piano teaching" and whether it is the same thing or different things? Is this just a regionality issue in terminology? Or is this really a big deal in how things are done on one side of the Atlantic vs. the other?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828660
03/19/19 12:35 PM
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I have trouble even finding the ABRSM version and instead found this page which suggests they are only "gaining popularity", implying they aren't so popular. I note that Trinity's version also seems to just be called a "teaching diploma", and unless I am finding the wrong thing, both ABRSM and Trinity's "teaching diplomas" seem to not be specific to piano but generalized to all instruments.


I may flesh this out later if I have the energy lol, but in summary ABRSM is the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music. The exams have been around forever and the ABRSM diplomas are the gold standard of musical qualifications in the UK (although there are others that I would count as "gaining in popularity").

As far as I'm concerned pedagogy just isn't a word, full stop! It simply is not used in the UK in any context I've ever come across (except when translating from US material).

Actually this language/cultural barrier thing is really fascinating so I will come back to this later. Bear in mind I'm English born and bred, with no international connections like bennevis or others, and my music background is very very traditional in that sense.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/19/19 12:38 PM.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828661
03/19/19 12:40 PM
03/19/19 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Quote
ABRSM version and instead found this page which suggests they are only "gaining popularity", implying they aren't so popular. I note that Trinity's version also seems to just be called a "teaching diploma", and unless I am finding the wrong thing, both ABRSM and Trinity's "teaching diplomas" seem to not be specific to piano but generalized to all instruments.


I may flesh this out later if I have the energy lol, but in summary ABRSM is the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music. The exams have been around forever and the ABRSM diplomas are the gold standard of musical qualifications in the UK (although there are others that I would count as "gaining in popularity").

Sorry, I should have been more clear. The webpage I referenced referred to the "teaching diplomas" of ABRSM as gaining in popularity. I was not implying ABRSM itself was gaining popularity as obviously that is already "popular," or as you say, the gold standard. In everything I wrote above, I was mainly talking about the respective teaching/pedagogy certifications and not the ABRSM, RCM, Trinity programs themselves.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2828663
03/19/19 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Quote
ABRSM version and instead found this page which suggests they are only "gaining popularity", implying they aren't so popular. I note that Trinity's version also seems to just be called a "teaching diploma", and unless I am finding the wrong thing, both ABRSM and Trinity's "teaching diplomas" seem to not be specific to piano but generalized to all instruments.


I may flesh this out later if I have the energy lol, but in summary ABRSM is the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music. The exams have been around forever and the ABRSM diplomas are the gold standard of musical qualifications in the UK (although there are others that I would count as "gaining in popularity").

Sorry, I should have been more clear. The webpage I referenced referred to the "teaching diplomas" of ABRSM as gaining in popularity. I was not implying ABRSM itself was gaining popularity as obviously that is already "popular," or as you say, the gold standard. In everything I wrote above, I was mainly talking about the respective teaching/pedagogy certifications and not the ABRSM, RCM, Trinity programs themselves.


But then both my first teachers (piano and violin), one of whom is now sadly dead and the other in her 80s, had teaching diplomas from the ABRSM. I'm sure they were teaching diplomas rather than general performance diplomas (although my piano teacher certainly had those too). I'll have to look at exactly what they say on their website. The DipABRSM I think is relatively new, as it used to be ARSM, LRSM and FRSM. I'm not sure what the rationale was for the change from "Associate" to the DipABRSM.


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828669
03/19/19 01:12 PM
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In British English, "pedagogue" has negative connotations.

I looked up my Collins Gem English Dictionary, "the world's best-selling pocket dictionary" (1994 edition).

It has just one entry for 'pedagogue': schoolteacher, esp. a pedantic one

Incidentally, I'm a man of the world cool, but that's exactly the impression I get when I hear someone use that word. It's uncool, out of date (like corporal punishment and writing lines), musty, mouldy even. Like Mr Chips grin:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GZEsFx5vWc

In fact, the only time I remember that word being used in a text was in relation to the old-school Russian pedagogues like Neuhaus (in the book 'Great Russian Pianists', translated from Russian). Until old-school teachers in PW started throwing that word (and their weight) around, with the implication that any teacher who hasn't studied "pedagogy" should be ashamed of herself........

So, for those of us brought up on British English, let's just think of the word "teaching". Therefore, to translate to US-speak, every teacher is a 'pedagogue', and has studied 'pedagogy' if she has had training and/or studied the subject she is teaching. thumb


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: bennevis] #2828677
03/19/19 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
So, for those of us brought up on British English, let's just think of the word "teaching". Therefore, to translate to US-speak, every teacher is a 'pedagogue', and has studied 'pedagogy' if she has had training and/or studied the subject she is teaching. thumb

OK. So this explains one of the "hot spots" in this thread. The entire denotation and connotation of "pedagogy" and whether that is different from just plain old "teaching."

But I raised another point, which is that RCM has a piano-specific pedagogy certification. I don't see anything piano-specific with regard to "teaching" in ABRSM or Trinity. Is it just not there, or have I looked in the wrong place? The ABRSM and Trinity certifications seem to be teaching of any or all musical instruments. More of a generic music teacher certification. Yes, no?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2828680
03/19/19 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by bennevis
So, for those of us brought up on British English, let's just think of the word "teaching". Therefore, to translate to US-speak, every teacher is a 'pedagogue', and has studied 'pedagogy' if she has had training and/or studied the subject she is teaching. thumb

OK. So this explains one of the "hot spots" in this thread. The entire denotation and connotation of "pedagogy" and whether that is different from just plain old "teaching."

But I raised another point, which is that RCM has a piano-specific pedagogy certification. I don't see anything piano-specific with regard to "teaching" in ABRSM or Trinity. Is it just not there, or have I looked in the wrong place? The ABRSM and Trinity certifications seem to be teaching of any or all musical instruments. More of a generic music teacher certification. Yes, no?


You've looked in the wrong place. :-) I'll hunt it out for you shortly.


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2828686
03/19/19 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by bennevis
So, for those of us brought up on British English, let's just think of the word "teaching". Therefore, to translate to US-speak, every teacher is a 'pedagogue', and has studied 'pedagogy' if she has had training and/or studied the subject she is teaching. thumb

OK. So this explains one of the "hot spots" in this thread. The entire denotation and connotation of "pedagogy" and whether that is different from just plain old "teaching."

But I raised another point, which is that RCM has a piano-specific pedagogy certification. I don't see anything piano-specific with regard to "teaching" in ABRSM or Trinity. Is it just not there, or have I looked in the wrong place? The ABRSM and Trinity certifications seem to be teaching of any or all musical instruments. More of a generic music teacher certification. Yes, no?


OK, I can see that it reads that way, but you gain the diploma with a specialism in one specific instrument. Not least because you have to meet stringent prerequisites. Obviously there are general principles that apply across the disciplines but the exams are specific to the chosen instrument. If you follow the links you can see the full syllabus and you’ll note that “pedagogy” (OK so it is a real word 😉) is just one of many things listed under the section “Teaching Skills”. You’ll also see there’s an extensive diploma reading list covering general performance, general teaching, and instrument specific reading matter in both those areas.

I wonder if it’s clearer now, when people have read all the requirements, why I have been confused that someone studying the subject matter for this diploma could be dismissed as knowing nothing at all about teaching?

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/19/19 01:55 PM.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828687
03/19/19 01:54 PM
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This is the ABRSM diploma syllabus and requirements for instrumental/vocal teaching:

https://gb.abrsm.org/fileadmin/user_upload/syllabuses/Teaching_dip_2017.pdf

You can see that the teaching skills required are similar for all teaching but there are also instrument-specific requirements.


For comparison, this is the syllabus for performance:

https://gb.abrsm.org/fileadmin/user_upload/PDFs/Diploma_Performance_Syllabus_WEB.pdf


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828700
03/19/19 02:31 PM
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For example, I'm looking at the piano-specific topics in the diploma include (from pp. 9 &12 of piano pedagogy syllabus): developing healthy technique and physiology, including posture, hand position, thumb movement, and finger movement; developing basic motor skills, technical control, finger strength, and hand independence; basic touches (legato and staccato); fingering strategies; approaches to tone production; stylistic awareness (teaching phrasing, articulation, ornamentation, pedaling, tempo rubato, and rhythmic flexibility specific to each style period and type of piece); introducing and teaching ornamentation; and developing dynamic range, voicing, and balance. These do seem rather specific to piano and not just general "music instrument learning" stuff.

I don't see anything like that level of piano-specific detail in what I can find on the ABRSM instrumental teaching certificates (and again, possibly I'm just looking in the wrong places). So now I'm really wondering if this pedagogy vs teach issue is one of those tomAto/tomaato things and people on this thread are not sharing a common understanding of "piano pedagogy" and "piano teaching" and whether it is the same thing or different things? Is this just a regionality issue in terminology? Or is this really a big deal in how things are done on one side of the Atlantic vs. the other?


So basically I think the difference is that the ABRSM syllabus doesn’t spell these things out, but it is implicit in the whole Teaching Skills section, here (describing typical areas covered by the viva voce):

Musical outlook: questions designed to put you at ease and to lead into the discussion, including: identification of the materials brought to the exam; knowledge of the underlying concepts and principles associated with your instrument.
Technique: knowledge and understanding of the techniques required to perform repertoire up to and including ABRSM Grade 6, and demonstration of approaches to teaching and performing them at this level, including posture, intonation, scales and exercises, tone production, articulation and phrasing.
Pedagogy: knowledge and understanding of the teaching and learning process, including: appropriate strategies for teaching individuals and (where appropriate) groups, and awareness of different learning styles; lesson planning, content and structure; assessment issues and reflective practice; teaching musicianship and instrumental/performance skills; practice; motivation.
Written Submission: points of clarification, discussion of the topic chosen and the sources used.
Repertoire: knowledge of repertoire for students up to and including ABRSM Grade 6 level, including tutor books, exercises and other teaching resources.
Style and interpretation: knowledge and understanding of musical styles and the interpretation of notation in order to produce stylistically aware performances, as well as demonstrations of how these can be taught to pupils up to and including ABRSM Grade 6 level.
History and background of the instrument/voice: knowledge of the main (construction) features of the instrument/voice and how it has developed over time.
Professional values and practice: understanding of the legal framework relating to
teaching, including child protection, maintaining a safe learning environment, the
physical well-being of pupils, and equal opportunities for all learners.
Any further points you wish to draw to the examiners’ attention before the
conclusion.

And anyone doing the most cursory preparation for this exam would surely understand that this includes all the concepts you list Tyrone and much more besides.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/19/19 02:33 PM.

Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828711
03/19/19 02:56 PM
03/19/19 02:56 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
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Tyrone Slothrop Online content
Tyrone Slothrop  Online Content


Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 4,928
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
And anyone doing the most cursory preparation for this exam would surely understand that this includes all the concepts you list Tyrone and much more besides.

Yes, although I can't properly judge if it is fully comprehensive, since I'm not a teacher myself, that does indeed sound to me like a long list of general teaching-related topics and skills, and I imagine with the specialization in piano, this curriculum gets into the piano-specific topics that I listed too from RCM, like teaching fingering strategies, developing dynamic range, etc.


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2828719
03/19/19 03:09 PM
03/19/19 03:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 572
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ShyPianist Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
ShyPianist  Offline OP
500 Post Club Member
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Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 572
UK
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
And anyone doing the most cursory preparation for this exam would surely understand that this includes all the concepts you list Tyrone and much more besides.

Yes, although I can't properly judge if it is fully comprehensive, since I'm not a teacher myself, that does indeed sound to me like a long list of general teaching-related topics and skills, and I imagine with the specialization in piano, this curriculum gets into the piano-specific topics that I listed too from RCM, like teaching fingering strategies, developing dynamic range, etc.


Of course, but it’s not spoon fed. There is no comprehensive list of piano-specific skills, but if you rocked up for the diploma exam and it was clear you didn’t know that stuff you simply wouldn’t pass.

So basically, going back to the central debate, yes I believe that working through the reading list and beyond for this syllabus with a mind to learning about all these topics is probably better than asking the local piano teacher for a couple of pedagogy lessons.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/19/19 03:13 PM.

Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
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