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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: bennevis] #2828430 03/18/19 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by bennevis
Try reading my 'offending' post another way.......

Oh! You meant it in reverse? Now why didn't you say that in the first place! grin

Hmmm, looks like I'll have to translate, so that the right people are suitably offended..... grin

There is a huge difference in piano teaching between the UK and USA, which I've got to know from the years I've spent lurking and posting here.
Often, my posts have infuriated some teachers in this forum, for which I don't give a toss.


There, I've split my sentence into two, which should make my message clearer than mud.....

Well, this is still not very clear, because the newly partitioned sentences seem just point to a distinction, but the implication of the difference is left unresolved, like a dissonance without a tonal center. wink Yet the following two sentence in your post of yesterday seem to suggest what that difference is, in a uncomplimentary way to "piano teachers in the USA":
Originally Posted by bennevis
What I can say for certain is that you're already much more qualified than the vast majority of piano teachers in the USA. There're lots more I could say, but maybe it's better to do it by PM, if you're interested in my thoughts......

These two sentences still really suggest that either my end of the stick was either not the wrong end, or your mud is still too opaque. Care to further water down the mud so that there is no question the people you intended to insult are actually the ones being insulted?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2828431 03/18/19 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Well, this is still not very clear, because the newly partitioned sentences seem just point to a distinction, but the implication of the difference is left unresolved, like a dissonance without a tonal center. wink Yet the following two sentence in your post of yesterday seem to suggest what that difference is, in a uncomplimentary way to "piano teachers in the USA":
Originally Posted by bennevis
What I can say for certain is that you're already much more qualified than the vast majority of piano teachers in the USA. There're lots more I could say, but maybe it's better to do it by PM, if you're interested in my thoughts......

These two sentences still really suggest that either my end of the stick was either not the wrong end, or your mud is still too opaque. Care to further water down the mud so that there is no question the people you intended to insult are actually the ones being insulted?


I really don’t want to be responsible for setting off a slanging match folks...


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828432 03/18/19 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
I really don’t want to be responsible for setting off a slanging match folks...

Yeah, sorry, by quoting that part of bennevis, I did not mean to pull you into the fray. Just that his first pair of sentences seem to point out UK and US piano teachers are different, without implying any sort of difference in quality or results, but then his following comment addressing you, when you've admitted you have no pedagogy training, seems to suggest that either the average US piano teacher also has no pedagogy training, or that they are in some other way, worse off than you with your 1 year of conservatory training. And when combined with the former statement of difference, well, that suggests to me what the difference was intended to be in his former statement. That is to say, the implication seems to be US teachers < UK teachers. And if that wasn't actually the intent, I think further mud clearing is called for!


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828434 03/18/19 07:37 PM
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Quote
but then his comment addressing you when you've admitted you have no pedagogy training seems to suggest that either the average US piano teacher also has no pedagogy training or that they are in some other way worse than you.


We’ll maybe just gloss over that wording shall we? 😉

PS no like most teachers starting out in the U.K. I haven’t sat down with a teacher to be taught how to teach, but hopefully it is pretty clear by now that such training takes many forms and that is just one. Let’s not go right back to the beginning!

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/18/19 07:43 PM.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828437 03/18/19 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Quote
but then his comment addressing you when you've admitted you have no pedagogy training seems to suggest that either the average US piano teacher also has no pedagogy training or that they are in some other way worse than you.

We’ll maybe just gloss over that wording shall we? 😉

Gloss over? We can't do that! I need to know if I should be properly feeling offended on behalf of those in the US or, conversely, gloating! wink


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2828438 03/18/19 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by bennevis
Try reading my 'offending' post another way.......

Oh! You meant it in reverse? Now why didn't you say that in the first place! grin

Hmmm, looks like I'll have to translate, so that the right people are suitably offended..... grin

There is a huge difference in piano teaching between the UK and USA, which I've got to know from the years I've spent lurking and posting here.
Often, my posts have infuriated some teachers in this forum, for which I don't give a toss.


There, I've split my sentence into two, which should make my message clearer than mud.....

Well, this is still not very clear, because the newly partitioned sentences seem just point to a distinction, but the implication of the difference is left unresolved, like a dissonance without a tonal center. wink

My preference is for music without a strong tonal centre, so that there's always an element of ambiguity, of unresolved tension.

With strongly tonal music, Mozart reigns supreme for me precisely because of his ambiguity of mood. Laughter through tears and all that. Is Don Giovanni a comedy or a tragedy? Is Sarastro really a good guy? Is K550 a work of 'Grecian lightness and grace', or "a work of passion, violence, and grief"?

The battle rages...... thumb


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2828439 03/18/19 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Quote
but then his comment addressing you when you've admitted you have no pedagogy training seems to suggest that either the average US piano teacher also has no pedagogy training or that they are in some other way worse than you.

We’ll maybe just gloss over that wording shall we? 😉

Gloss over? We can't do that! I need to know if I should be properly feeling offended on behalf of those in the US or, conversely, gloating! wink


I meant your wording to me...

EDIT: but don’t worry, I shan't take the “worse than you” bit to heart.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/18/19 07:50 PM.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828440 03/18/19 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Quote
but then his comment addressing you when you've admitted you have no pedagogy training seems to suggest that either the average US piano teacher also has no pedagogy training or that they are in some other way worse than you.

We’ll maybe just gloss over that wording shall we? 😉

Gloss over? We can't do that! I need to know if I should be properly feeling offended on behalf of those in the US or, conversely, gloating! wink


I meant your wording to me...

Oh, see it again above. I think I edited it before time ran out on edits to clarify that I mean without any intention to slight your accomplishments, that you had a year of conservatory and no pedagogical training by your statements, and that I am wondering about the idea that the average piano teacher in the USA has even less than this. I do not believe this is true. Personally, I believe your piano skills are enough to train your son, but you've as much said that if you were to actually consider training others, you'd take a look at something more for yourself.

In the most general sense, I don't think it is insulting to a "particular amateur" to compare him/her to the "average professional" and ask, why is someone apparently saying the average professional is not as good as this particular amateur. And certainly, in asking for clarification, I certainly meant no disrespect to you.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828444 03/18/19 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
EDIT: but don’t worry, I shan't take the “worse than you” bit to heart.

Yes, that was one of the things I fixed before time ran out - I changed "worse" which implies some sort of value judgement and comparison with "worse off" (see above - "in a less advantageous position; less fortunate or prosperous"), which simply refer to your condition of not having completed the conservatory or obtaining pedagogy training, yet. Again, I modified this because I didn't mean it to slight your achievements in any way. But just to make a comparison of the conditions/credentials. I still don't see how the average US piano teacher can be considered to be in a "less advantageous position," considering until now, you'd apparently never even "positioned" yourself as a piano teacher at all.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2828450 03/18/19 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
EDIT: but don’t worry, I shan't take the “worse than you” bit to heart.

Yes, that was one of the things I fixed before time ran out - I changed "worse" which implies some sort of value judgement and comparison with "worse off" (see above), which simply refer to your condition of not having completed the conservatory or obtaining pedagogy training, yet. Again, I modified this because I didn't mean it to slight your achievements in any way. But just to make a comparison of the conditions/credentials.


I didn’t complete the music degree it’s true, but I did another degree and I train people as part of my current job. The conservatory course, had I completed it, would have left me no more qualified to teach than I am now. “The pedagogy training” simply does not exist in any formalised sense. I refer you to my post up thread about talking the same language and yet really not doing so at all. The cultural gap isn’t getting resolved on this thread sadly. I need to get to bed. 😊


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828453 03/18/19 08:14 PM
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PS I understand your point by the way, but it’s all getting a wee bit personal and slightly out of proportion with my original question. My son will, I’m sure, be delighted to have so many people across the pond concerned for his pianistic welfare. 😁

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/18/19 08:18 PM.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828454 03/18/19 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
I didn’t complete the music degree it’s true, but I did another degree and I train people as part of my current job. The conservatory course, had I completed it, would have left me no more qualified to teach than I am now. “The pedagogy training” simply does not exist in any formalised sense. I refer you to my post up thread about talking the same language and yet really not doing so at all. The cultural gap isn’t getting resolved on this thread sadly. I need to get to bed. 😊

Separate from whether I think piano pedagogy is needed at all to teach piano - and certainly I don't think it is needed to teach your son - I do still acknowledge there is such a thing as "piano pedagogy." It may not meet your definition of "pedagogy training," but that doesn't make it less of "a thing." In looking over the RCM piano pedagogy curriculum, which might be similar to ABRSM and Trinity, I see the piano form still includes elements of what is suggested by the word "pedagogy" (e.g., plans for and structure of lessons in the early years, including practicing and setting goals; nurturing creativity through imagery and analogy; developing critical listening; basic performance preparation, recitals, festivals; evaluating student progress; practice strategies and effective practicing; and the value of assessment, preparation for examinations, and requirements for elementary-level examinations). This all sounds like "pedagogy" to me, in most sense of the word, except where you only consider pedagogy to be some sort of mentoring of a student/new teacher on how to teach piano students.

Again, aside from whether or not such stuff is needed in order for you to teach your son, the pedagogy training itself does indeed exist in a formalized sense - it's just that it is a different meaning of "pedagogy" than what apparently you and bennevis think of when you hear the word "pedagogy."


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2828455 03/18/19 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
I didn’t complete the music degree it’s true, but I did another degree and I train people as part of my current job. The conservatory course, had I completed it, would have left me no more qualified to teach than I am now. “The pedagogy training” simply does not exist in any formalised sense. I refer you to my post up thread about talking the same language and yet really not doing so at all. The cultural gap isn’t getting resolved on this thread sadly. I need to get to bed. 😊

Separate from whether I think piano pedagogy is needed at all to teach piano - and certainly I don't think it is needed to teach your son - I do still acknowledge there is such a thing as "piano pedagogy." It may not meet your definition of "pedagogy training," but that doesn't make it less of "a thing." In looking over the RCM piano pedagogy curriculum, which might be similar to ABRSM and Trinity, I see the piano form still includes elements of what is suggested by the word "pedagogy" (e.g., plans for and structure of lessons in the early years, including practicing and setting goals; nurturing creativity through imagery and analogy; developing critical listening; basic performance preparation, recitals, festivals; evaluating student progress; practice strategies and effective practicing; and the value of assessment, preparation for examinations, and requirements for elementary-level examinations). This all sounds like "pedagogy" to me, in most sense of the word, except where you only consider pedagogy to be some sort of mentoring of a student/new teacher on how to teach piano students.

Again, aside from whether or not such stuff is needed in order for you to teach your son, the pedagogy training itself does indeed exist in a formalized sense - it's just that it is a different meaning of "pedagogy" than what apparently you and bennevis think of when you hear the word "pedagogy."


Oh will I ever extricate myself from this thread?! I should have said “does not exist in the U.K.” because that’s what I meant. I’m just curious as to what you think the purpose of reading lists and experience is, if not to educate oneself in the kinds of things you mention above (as well as other very important things you didn’t mention, like technique and suitable repertoire for different levels). Yes there is the odd course, if one can get to them, to help guide people through if they wish, but the expectation at this level is that you are capable of researching this stuff for yourself. Rightly so, in my opinion.


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828457 03/18/19 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
but it’s all getting a wee bit personal

I don't know if you mean more than just me, but again, I changed "worse" to "worse off" to make it less personal. I think you've accomplished a lot in getting to the conservatory at all and spending a year there. I was addressing whether bennevis meant in any way to slight US piano teachers, not you personally.

Flipping this around on me, as an example, I studied mathematics and physics to quite a high level at the university, doing quite well in national-level competitions, and published a number of papers in professional refereed science journals. But I didn't finish in the sense that I never earned a PhD in math, nor do I teach it now. If I proposed teaching my child math, I don't see why I couldn't. In actual fact I did homeschool my daughter and I had taught her math. But say then someone were to comment about me, "what can be said for certain is that Tyrone Slothrop is already much more qualified than the vast majority of math teachers in the USA." In such a case, I think it would be fair for anyone else to question how that this statement could be so, and without any intention to slight me personally, to say that such a comparison given that I lack any formal credentials or experience to teach math, does not put US mathematics teachers in a good light. Perhaps this is just me, but I would not feel bad about such a statement because it is obviously true on its face.

This is all many words to say, I didn't mean to insult you, I didn't mean to get personal, you are doing a great job as a parent and I wish I had your energy or skills with my own daughter, but perhaps you are reading what I wrote in too personal a way, as I simply think the average piano teacher in the US does have "more than" 1 year of professional piano performance training (i.e., your year at the conservatory). As to what "more than" means, I can't exactly say, but my sense if we are talking about the average US piano teacher, it is some sort of piano performance or pedagogy degree (BM, BMA) or some sort of piano pedagogy certification, because the opposite would be less than, and if the average piano teacher has less than 1 year of undergraduate music education, then this would seem to imply they have no training at all in music at all at a post-secondary school level.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2828462 03/18/19 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
but it’s all getting a wee bit personal

I don't know if you mean more than just me, but again, I changed "worse" to "worse off" to make it less personal. I think you've accomplished a lot in getting to the conservatory at all and spending a year there. I was addressing whether bennevis meant in any way to slight US piano teachers, not you personally.

Flipping this around on me, as an example, I studied mathematics and physics to quite a high level at the university, doing quite well in national-level competitions, and published a number of papers in professional refereed science journals. But I didn't finish in the sense that I never earned a PhD in math, nor do I teach it now. If I proposed teaching my child math, I don't see why I couldn't. In actual fact I did homeschool my daughter and I had taught her math. But say then someone were to comment about me, "what can be said for certain is that Tyrone Slothrop is already much more qualified than the vast majority of math teachers in the USA." In such a case, I think it would be fair for anyone else to question how that this statement could be so, and without any intention to slight me personally, to say that such a comparison given that I lack any formal credentials or experience to teach math, does not put US mathematics teachers in a good light. Perhaps this is just me, but I would not feel bad about such a statement because it is obviously true on its face.

This is all many words to say, I didn't mean to insult you, I didn't mean to get personal, you are doing a great job as a parent and I wish I had your energy or skills with might daughter, but perhaps you are reading what I wrote in too personal a way, as I simply think the average piano teacher in the US does have "more than" 1 year of professional piano performance training (i.e., your year at the conservatory).


No I did mean in a wider sense, as in I don’t totally appreciate having my background, achievements (such as they are) and deficiencies (obvious) raked over in the context of a broader discussion about whether I’m more or less qualified/capable than ANother teacher here or in the States (bearing in mind I have never claimed to be a teacher). I am more qualified to start teaching than some people for sure, I know of people teaching who barely scraped Grade 8, and less qualified than many others. That much is obvious surely? And I’ve not once said anything different.

Now if people want to continue the broader discussion can they please leave my personal situation out of it or start another thread? Thank you!

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/18/19 08:51 PM.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2828466 03/18/19 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I was addressing whether bennevis meant in any way to slight US piano teachers, not you personally.


That's why we should leave ShyPianist out of our exchanges on this subject.

Anyway, it's bed time where I live, as well as in Scotland, where ShyPianist and Ben Nevis reside.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: bennevis] #2828509 03/19/19 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by bennevis
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I was addressing whether bennevis meant in any way to slight US piano teachers, not you personally.


That's why we should leave ShyPianist out of our exchanges on this subject.

Agreed! Shywho? smile

Anyways, everyone has been insulted who was intended to be insulted in this thread, and plenty of people who were not intended for insult have been insulted too. This has been a busy little thread!


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828552 03/19/19 06:28 AM
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It has been "interesting" reading this "battle".


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: ShyPianist] #2828584 03/19/19 08:22 AM
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I have found this thread depressing.

It seems to me the repliers to the OP's query have been wilfully ignoring her circumstances when she has been clear about her circumstances and situation. That pedagogy here in the UK is not formalised here as part of the qualification for teacher training as it is rightly so in the USA. It feels like the teachers from the US are just wanting to lord it over how superior their training is rather than thinking about how to help with practical answers to the OP's original query.

The other thing the OP made clear early on is that her location is remote, and I know many in the US might find it impossible to believe but it is perfectly possible in this small country to be a long drive from a city or town of any significant size where there would be a range of piano teachers that could be evaluated. But once again this information feels like it is being wilfully ignored.

The end result is that in response to a practical query for information there has been some small amount of useful information. (Personally I've learnt about the importance of Pedagogy to learning). But instead lots of judgement of the OP and what she is trying to do and a determination to ignore the circumstances she finds herself in so as to create the straw person they can easily knock down.

Much more like this and I think I might give up on this forum. I'll become one of these many new learners who was thought to have given up on learning the piano but instead all that has happened is I will have given up using the forum.


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions [Re: KevinM] #2828585 03/19/19 08:27 AM
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ShyPianist Offline OP
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Originally Posted by KevinM
I have found this thread depressing.

It seems to me the repliers to the OP's query have been wilfully ignoring her circumstances when she has been clear about her circumstances and situation. That pedagogy here in the UK is not formalised here as part of the qualification for teacher training as it is rightly so in the USA. It feels like the teachers from the US are just wanting to lord it over how superior their training is rather than thinking about how to help with practical answers to the OP's original query.

The other thing the OP made clear early on is that her location is remote, and I know many in the US might find it impossible to believe but it is perfectly possible in this small country to be a long drive from a city or town of any significant size where there would be a range of piano teachers that could be evaluated. But once again this information feels like it is being wilfully ignored.

The end result is that in response to a practical query for information there has been some small amount of useful information. (Personally I've learnt about the importance of Pedagogy to learning). But instead lots of judgement of the OP and what she is trying to do and a determination to ignore the circumstances she finds herself in so as to create the straw person they can easily knock down.

Much more like this and I think I might give up on this forum. I'll become one of these many new learners who was thought to have given up on learning the piano but instead all that has happened is I will have given up using the forum.


Kevin, all you have said is true and thank you for saying it :-). However there are also a couple of teachers on here whose opinions I have come to respect (having read other threads) who have been most generous with helpful, non-judgemental advice. We're all good as far as I'm concerned, I'm a grown woman and as a working mother I'm perfectly well used to being negatively judged for whatever I do. It's wrong, but that's life. :-)

PS there's no one on here who's a bigger critic or judge of me than I am of myself. I think the fact I found the pressure of performance too great might be a clue to that, and you would also imagine that would give the critics a clue that I would not go into this if I didn't think I could do it well. But hey, it's easier to judge isn't it?

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/19/19 08:36 AM.

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