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Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? #2828290
03/18/19 12:40 PM
03/18/19 12:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,263
Toronto, Ontario
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Peter K. Mose Offline OP
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A teacher on another discussion board I monitor asked advice on what the poster's 14yo daughter should charge when she starts giving piano lessons to children next fall. Apparently the girl is itching to get started teaching, and has the blessing of her private teacher.

I suggested that the daughter was too young to become a teacher, by maybe a decade or more. Well, that observation went over like a lead balloon. Then I suggested that this young girl might first try teaching adult early intermediate piano students, not 7yo beginners at the piano. I figure the adults might be more pliable and accepting of a young teen teacher than a little kid would. That suggestion was met with hostility.

Regarding fees, I suggested a range between teaching for free, or free in return for a donation to a local arts centre, to a high price of half the going rate in the community. Other teachers thought the fee should be somewhat less than the going rate in the community, maybe 75%.

I'd be curious to start a discussion on this board about these issues. I guess if piano teaching is purely technical rote learning, drawn from a beginner method book, a high school kid could pull it off. Could they pull it off as well as I can, after my decades of teaching? Who knows? Maybe their freshness would carry the day, and they would do a great job. Maybe they should charge as much as I do. Maybe they should charge more than I do.

But if one considers music education in the piano studio to be a broader and deeper cultural endeavor, then the 9th grade piano teacher is clearly not ready to do this.

In Canada and the US, anyone can declare oneself a studio piano teacher and plunge in. There is no minimum age, and no entry requirement. We all started at some point, and at some age, and we all learned on the job. Most of us likely did not specifically train to become piano teachers. I'm ok with this. But can one be a child prodigy piano teacher? Is there an age that is simply too young?

Thoughts?

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Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828300
03/18/19 01:00 PM
03/18/19 01:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 136
Canada
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My thought is that you are very brave to start this discussion here!


Private piano teacher
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Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828301
03/18/19 01:01 PM
03/18/19 01:01 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 860
South Wales
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Colin Miles Offline
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At the age of eleven I had one more exam to take before becoming qualified as a teacher. I was deemed too young - quite right. At the age of fourteen and with enthusiasm maybe it is different. Again, it depends on who she is teaching, her own maturity and personality and many other things, not least who she will be teaching. It sounds as this is likely to happen anyway, charge-free or not, so it will be interesting to hear the results.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Colin Miles] #2828304
03/18/19 01:03 PM
03/18/19 01:03 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
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UK
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
At the age of eleven I had one more exam to take before becoming qualified as a teacher. I was deemed too young - quite right. At the age of fourteen and with enthusiasm maybe it is different. Again, it depends on who she is teaching, her own maturity and personality and many other things, not least who she will be teaching. It sounds as this is likely to happen anyway, charge-free or not, so it will be interesting to hear the results.


In piano you mean Colin? You had Grade 8 at 11?

I will read the replies with interest and that is all I am saying. ;-)


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828305
03/18/19 01:06 PM
03/18/19 01:06 PM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 360
Texas
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Very interesting thread.

I started (or, rather, was thrust into) teaching at 16 or 17. At that time, I lived in a rather remote area of the Appalachian Mountains. We had in influx of Spanish-speaking immigrants, some of whom wanted to learn piano. There was one piano teacher in the county, and her studio was pretty full, and she did not speak Spanish. I was my teacher's most advanced student at the time, and I spoke Spanish. So my teacher and I came to an arrangement - after some instruction in how to teach, I started taking on the beginners who did not speak English. I taught them piano and also worked with them on the English skills they would need in music lessons. When I eventually went off to University, my teacher took on the ones who wanted to continue. She said I had done well with them, and that it was easy for her to pick up where I had left off.

I don't remember how much I charged, but it wasn't very much. Certainly nowhere near what I charge now.

Was I as good a teacher then as I am now? Certainly not. I'm always trying to improve, and I think my teaching is better now than it was 20 years ago, or even five years ago. Did I mess up any beginners? Not according to my teacher.

One idea I would suggest is have a qualified teacher somehow evaluate the teaching, something like quality control.

I'm looking forward to reading other folks' thoughts.


Austin Rogers, PhD
Music Teacher in Austin, TX
Baldwin SD-10 Concert Grand "Kuroneko", Baldwin Upright, Yamaha P-255
Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828335
03/18/19 02:51 PM
03/18/19 02:51 PM
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Posts: 31
Spain
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Suni Offline
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The only reason I can see for parents to send their children to a 14 year old inexperienced teacher is the price. Honestly I would only have considered for my kids it if the classes were a lot less than half the price of an experienced older teacher, or maybe free. After all the young teacher would be learning as much from the classes as the kids.

It sounds like her own teacher will guide her through this, so she should do ok teaching beginners if she can actually find students!

Let us know how it turns out for her if you hear anything.

Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Suni] #2828358
03/18/19 04:21 PM
03/18/19 04:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
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Greater Chicago Metro Area
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EPW Offline
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Originally Posted by Suni
The only reason I can see for parents to send their children to a 14 year old inexperienced teacher is the price. Honestly I would only have considered for my kids it if the classes were a lot less than half the price of an experienced older teacher, or maybe free. After all the young teacher would be learning as much from the classes as the kids.

It sounds like her own teacher will guide her through this, so she should do ok teaching beginners if she can actually find students!

Let us know how it turns out for her if you hear anything.


Funny thing is I have been asked to teach young ones because the parents don't think they will stick with it and slide it in a conversation with me. Hey Ed interested in making a few extra bucks. I had lessons and got to advanced level but not conservatory level. I probably could teach to intermediate level but I definitely would not want to teach friends kids shocked
Stopped playing and took it up again for my own enjoyment after I finished graduating college in a non-musical degree.
So I could actually see her getting students from cheap parents or from parents who have limited funds.


All these years playing and I still consider myself a novice.
Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: ShyPianist] #2828367
03/18/19 04:42 PM
03/18/19 04:42 PM
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South Wales
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Colin Miles Offline
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist


In piano you mean Colin? You had Grade 8 at 11?


I was force-fed exams every six months or so with the Trinity College of Music. Got to Senior grade in both practical and I think theory - long time ago.

But regarding young piano teachers, back even earlier it was not unusual for students to teach others. I have the certificate of a piano teacher who died at the age of 94 and I think she started very young when her teacher died or went to war - this is WW1.

Last edited by Colin Miles; 03/18/19 04:43 PM. Reason: additional comment

Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828396
03/18/19 06:26 PM
03/18/19 06:26 PM
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The OP was correct on both points. My advice to him is to try to forget that people like this exist.

That girl will not be able to retain students. She probably will move on to some other whim after this one. The whole point will be moot in about six months.

Wait til she has a six year old boy misbehaving and can't make the proper adjustments to his behaviour. Or she will get too friendly with another female student and not be able to assert a teacher's authority. Or she will be complaining that her student's parents want to skip lessons and not pay for them. Or students will not do what she asks them to do.

In fact, it's the interpersonal skills that she will most lack, the assertiveness. To each his own.

Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828405
03/18/19 06:49 PM
03/18/19 06:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
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Orange County, CA
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There are awful piano teachers at any age. Age alone is not the determining factor of the teacher's awfulness.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828412
03/18/19 07:14 PM
03/18/19 07:14 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,041
Boynton Beach, FL
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It sounds as though she has the blessing of her teacher - and presumably the ability to check with her on any problems that arise. She should definitely charge less than the average rate for lessons in that area. She may not get good students, but you never know. And as long as the parent can be respectful of her, then she should give it a try.

I do hope her teacher has prepared her for some of the issues she will encounter. When I started teaching, I was around 25 but I looked 18. That caused a lot of problems, especially with adult students - they just couldn't get over the fact that they'd be learning from someone that much younger than they. It really offended their pride.


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Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828465
03/18/19 09:50 PM
03/18/19 09:50 PM
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Reseda, California
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Originally Posted by Peter K. Mose
A teacher on another discussion board I monitor asked advice on what the poster's 14yo daughter should charge when she starts giving piano lessons to children next fall.

Thoughts?


Perhaps look at what 14 year olds are charging to mow lawns, compared with pro gardeners? Go for the same percentage of the adult teacher's price?


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Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828512
03/19/19 02:53 AM
03/19/19 02:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 140
Canada
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Vladimir Dounin Offline
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Originally Posted by Peter K. Mose
A teacher on another discussion board I monitor asked advice on what the poster's 14yo daughter should charge when she starts giving piano lessons to children next fall. Apparently the girl is itching to get started teaching, and has the blessing of her private teacher.

I suggested that the daughter was too young to become a teacher, by maybe a decade or more. Well, that observation went over like a lead balloon. Then I suggested that this young girl might first try teaching adult early intermediate piano students, not 7yo beginners at the piano. I figure the adults might be more pliable and accepting of a young teen teacher than a little kid would. That suggestion was met with hostility.

Regarding fees, I suggested a range between teaching for free, or free in return for a donation to a local arts centre, to a high price of half the going rate in the community. Other teachers thought the fee should be somewhat less than the going rate in the community, maybe 75%.

I'd be curious to start a discussion on this board about these issues. I guess if piano teaching is purely technical rote learning, drawn from a beginner method book, a high school kid could pull it off. Could they pull it off as well as I can, after my decades of teaching? Who knows? Maybe their freshness would carry the day, and they would do a great job. Maybe they should charge as much as I do. Maybe they should charge more than I do.

But if one considers music education in the piano studio to be a broader and deeper cultural endeavor, then the 9th grade piano teacher is clearly not ready to do this.

In Canada and the US, anyone can declare oneself a studio piano teacher and plunge in. There is no minimum age, and no entry requirement. We all started at some point, and at some age, and we all learned on the job. Most of us likely did not specifically train to become piano teachers. I'm ok with this. But can one be a child prodigy piano teacher? Is there an age that is simply too young?

Thoughts?


In Russia all students with good marks at exams HAD to work as a teacher and teach beginners. I started teaching at age 14. as well. My salary was exactly 1 Canadian dollar per hour (0.62 USD). At the same year I started work as a Kindergarten Music Teacher. ($ 5 per hour). It is a wonderful experience for a whole life. I can explain everything in music to everyone after I did it for 2-3 years old students.

Good luck for your daughter!


Vladimir Dounin
Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828515
03/19/19 03:35 AM
03/19/19 03:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
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Toronto, Ontario
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Peter K. Mose Offline OP
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I only described half the story. Little Janey at age 14 is apparently equally accomplished on both piano and violin, and wants to commence teaching both instruments this fall - apparently with the approval of both of her instrumental teachers. She won't be a teaching assistant to either of these teachers; she'll just hang out a shingle and compete for students against every seasoned piano and violin teacher in her small city. (Her mom, also a piano teacher, is willing to informally act as a consultant, if Janey needs advice on piano teaching issues.)

Janey will be competing against her own mother, unless Mom is looking to reduce her studio. The whole thing sounds daffy. My views coincide with Candywoman's.

Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828519
03/19/19 04:05 AM
03/19/19 04:05 AM
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Posts: 8,231
Orange County, CA
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Originally Posted by Peter K. Mose
I only described half the story. Little Janey at age 14 is apparently equally accomplished on both piano and violin, and wants to commence teaching both instruments this fall - apparently with the approval of both of her instrumental teachers. She won't be a teaching assistant to either of these teachers; she'll just hang out a shingle and compete for students against every seasoned piano and violin teacher in her small city. (Her mom, also a piano teacher, is willing to informally act as a consultant, if Janey needs advice on piano teaching issues.)

Janey will be competing against her own mother, unless Mom is looking to reduce her studio. The whole thing sounds daffy. My views coincide with Candywoman's.

Maybe you need to see what the student is capable of before you make age-based judgments.

If you have worked with as many teenage geniuses as I have, you will humble yourself to the capacity of young minds.


Private Piano Teacher and MTAC Member
Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: AZNpiano] #2828534
03/19/19 06:13 AM
03/19/19 06:13 AM
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Canada
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
If you have worked with as many teenage geniuses as I have, you will humble yourself to the capacity of young minds.

If this child is in fact a "genius", which I guess means that everything came naturally and easily to her, does that put her in a position of also being able to teach skills to students ... and on two instruments? Do we know she is a genius? What does "accomplished" mean, if she is "equally accomplished" in two instruments? (which I think that Peter expressed somewhat tongue in cheek).

Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828535
03/19/19 06:23 AM
03/19/19 06:23 AM
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I have one central idea that I would like to put forth. Teaching is important, because learners are the recipients of teaching. It should be done well enough that the learner is not damaged. These are people, who will carry with them the results of this teaching, maybe for a long time. I am seeing discussions around who would be willing to be taught "not well", if it's free, or if it's a particular age group, or because they are more willing or more compliant. If it's a freebie or cheap teaching,does that mean that people with little money will be made to have their hopes dashed? Either this young lady is able to teach, or she isn't. If she doesn't have that ability, she should not be teaching. She might indeed be able to: none of us know her.

People try to make paper airplanes, and cookies, and hobby furniture. You throw your first attempts in the garbage if they don't turn out, learn from your mistakes and try again. But students are people who continue living and trying after those lessons.

Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: keystring] #2828539
03/19/19 06:36 AM
03/19/19 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I have one central idea that I would like to put forth. Teaching is important, because learners are the recipients of teaching. It should be done well enough that the learner is not damaged. These are people, who will carry with them the results of this teaching, maybe for a long time. I am seeing discussions around who would be willing to be taught "not well", if it's free, or if it's a particular age group, or because they are more willing or more compliant. If it's a freebie or cheap teaching,does that mean that people with little money will be made to have their hopes dashed? Either this young lady is able to teach, or she isn't. If she doesn't have that ability, she should not be teaching. She might indeed be able to: none of us know her.

People try to make paper airplanes, and cookies, and hobby furniture. You throw your first attempts in the garbage if they don't turn out, learn from your mistakes and try again. But students are people who continue living and trying after those lessons.


For obvious reasons (I expect) I’m rather reticent about commenting here. I’m unsure if AZNpiano’s comments are serious or not (a dry wit can be hard to read without visual clues) but it’s correct, to a point, that age is not the only consideration. But we’re not talking age so much as experience, and I don’t even mean musical experience so much as I mean life experience and maturity. As you might expect I’m not gong to comment on the girl’s current lack of teaching experience because absolutely everyone has to start somewhere and without knowing more about her background it’s impossible to say whether she has sufficient knowledge to be starting now or not. If she has her teacher’s own blessing I can only assume she does, otherwise I would have to question her own teacher’s experience and suitability.

I totally agree with the comments above that doing something cheap doesn’t make it better if the result is bad. Either do something right and charge appropriately or don’t do it. No one should be paid less simply because they’re young incidentally, all that does is breed the mindset that Keystring rightly criticises.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/19/19 06:46 AM.

Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828621
03/19/19 10:44 AM
03/19/19 10:44 AM
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Boynton Beach, FL
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I had zero teaching experience when I began teaching. But I had the recommendation of my teacher - and the ability to ask her for advice - when I began teaching. Did I make mistakes? Of course. There's no getting around that. But I read lots of books and learned what I could.

I charged a lot less than the average rate at the time because I was new and I know that my students at the time knew that as well. But I knew piano well, and I also happened to be the kind of person who gives a lot of thought to how I do things and how I can improve, which are qualities that happen to work well in teaching.

This girl may be a talented teacher, just inexperienced - which her price should reflect. This does not means he will "ruin" kids in piano. I know many teachers that have decades of experience that ruin kids. One does not necessarily cause the other.

So I guess I'm not sure what the big deal is. How many people are going into piano teaching these days? How many people are taking up piano and not just resorting to youtube videos and self-teaching? I love what I do and I find it sad to see it dying as it is. So when there's someone enthusiastic and - allegedly - capable and recommended by professionals in the field, who am I to say no?

Last edited by Morodiene; 03/19/19 10:45 AM.

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Re: Piano teacher at age 14: thoughts? [Re: Peter K. Mose] #2828627
03/19/19 10:52 AM
03/19/19 10:52 AM
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What it all boils down to is that we don't know really know what the girl is like other than being enthusiastic and talented - two pluses - and very young - which might equal two minuses. But we don't know what she might charge or who she might teach. So basically we're just speculating. Be interesting to hear what happens, if it goes ahead. A case study for future debate.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
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