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Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2827731
03/17/19 01:43 AM
03/17/19 01:43 AM
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When I went to my present teacher many moons ago, I had spend 3 months with myself and a few lessons with another teacher. The first try showed me what can be missing from lessons so I made it clear what I wanted: Help with physical technique. Reading I could practice myself and my musical judgement and ear seem to naturally be above average due to other musical experience (although listening to my own playing was still undeveloped). So we kind of went to zero with how to physically play the piano but not in the music selection. That was hard! I don't seem to have much physical aptitude for playing the piano and I was not in good shape either. My first teacher only focused on the occasional wrong notes and not at all on how I physically played. He just said on the first lesson something like "your fingers seem to work well".

The new teacher never asked me what I have been practicing, just asked me what kind of music I wanted to play eventually and asked me to play something for her. I played the only piece I could remember, the easy Rameau menuet. She immediately judged my playing technically inadequate for the music I wanted to play (Chopin and Scarlatti at that point). So we went from there...She gave me some very easy pieces for specific techniques but let me have my own selections as well. So we kind of worked on different difficulty levels at the same time. I think that saved me from quitting out of disinterest and boredom, although she never made it easy for me, demanding high quality from whatever I decided I want to try. I would sometimes quit the pieces voluntarily realizing it was too hard to get them to her standard. This way of studying (focusing on problem solving) requires a pretty tough charachter and ability to handle disappointments so I would not recommend it for everyone... but I still think it was the best way for me personally. After all I am still playing and taking lessons smile

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Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2827805
03/17/19 10:13 AM
03/17/19 10:13 AM
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I think you're very quick and easy on dismissing teachers. Learning piano will take years. Let's say 10.000 hours . It sounds you're not ready for that kind of commitment.

Quote
Piano teachers always call the shots;it's what they sell, their business, livelihood. Flexibility doesn't often come with the package. Patience can be a bit thin on the ground with some, but they each have their chosen method. Some teach to a very high standard, and often want pupils that will attain such.



I have a very different experience with teachers. They are quite flexible. in terms of what pieces to play and what to work on. But if they sense that you're unsure they probably will - or maybe should - take the lead.


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Re: disaster [Re: wouter79] #2827816
03/17/19 11:06 AM
03/17/19 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by wouter79
I think you're very quick and easy on dismissing teachers. Learning piano will take years. Let's say 10.000 hours . It sounds you're not ready for that kind of commitment.

I have a very different experience with teachers. They are quite flexible. in terms of what pieces to play and what to work on. But if they sense that you're unsure they probably will - or maybe should - take the lead.


I think the "Teacher" category cannot be easily described. We all have or had different experiences. To be a piano teacher does not require to have any particular degree; but having a degree and being a conservatory teacher also does not mean one is good at teaching adult beginners. In addition there is a lot of psychology involved and not all teachers are good at it; some may be excellent musicians but poor at people interaction. I do not know what is the rate of giving up but from I have read in music schools it is about 60% in the first 2 to 3 years. Some piano teachers, after a while, end up with the same routine they apply to all their students. I do not know if there are many teachers that would take the time to really customize their approach to each individual student, but since I have no stats, it cant be verified one way or another.

I had a long time ago an excellent teacher, ex pro, which I got along quite well. Only issue is that she was completely disorganized in the sense that she did not have any particular plan to teach. It seemed quite random (with experience I can confirm it was). She taught me a few good things but then it was sort circling, so I decided to change. I think it is good to change from time to time and have different experiences.

Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2827821
03/17/19 11:27 AM
03/17/19 11:27 AM
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Apogius - having read your story and responses of fellow members:

You had a first teacher who started you with the Beyer book for 4 lessons in some fashion, which either you continued a bit on your own in some fashion, or just brought it to the next teacher. That one started you on a different book - (at the beginning or somewhere in the middle?) - the next one we can skip - and the last gave you a piece to play, declaring that your reading was "good enough" - which you tried to then do, in some fashion.

It is likely that you are missing fundamental skills of various kinds, and every teacher afterward has tried to take a stab at starting you "somewhere in there" as though you did have foundations. Plus, not every teacher knows how to teach, and doing so with an adult, and one who started "somehow" is a much bigger challenge: so you're likely to get inadequate teacher. It only takes ONE good teacher to turn this around, providing that you work with that good teacher, consistently (daily), and for long enough.

Two things you wanted to get:
1) underlying skills of the most basic nature. Don't assume that you have any of them in a way to serve you. Don't be wedded to any method book (Beyer) - teachers teach; books are just tools.

2) knowing how to practice / how to learn / how to work I call this "approach" - how to approach a thing. You will also get some descriptions in this forum under names like "effective practice". What do you do when you get a piece of music or an assignment? How do you divide your time; break up the piece for practise; create and follow goals for that practise? These are things you should be getting guidance on from your teacher.

If with the Ana Magdalena you were struggling for yours, either or both of these were probably missing.

The teachers I know who are effective do not assume their student knows anything, regardless of how long they studied with a teacher. They check for skills. You want to go to the very beginning to patch holes and redirect things that are going in the wrong direction. A lot of members have suggested this, and I agree with them.

The first thing is to find that decent teacher, which means first having your own goals straight (which imho should be the basics of 1 & 2 in my list), and then work with that teacher in the manner prescribed by the teacher. And that manner should be given. Not just pieces, or pages to do, but how to do them, and toward what.

Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2828008
03/17/19 09:14 PM
03/17/19 09:14 PM
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Give yourself a chance before quitting. As a teen I was a quitter. I quit with 3,500 hours of piano behind me. I too felt I was progressing too slowly. I too felt my teacher was holding me back.

Piano is very time intensive. It requires colossal patience to learn piano as an adult. Give yourself time, lots and lots of time. In hindsight I now realize you need 4 or 5 years of experience (4000 - 5000 hours) before you can realistically assess your piano skills.

TL;DR if you enjoy it, don't quit.


"the lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne." -- Chaucer.
Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2828009
03/17/19 09:14 PM
03/17/19 09:14 PM
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Give yourself a chance before quitting. As a teen I was a quitter. I quit with 3,500 hours of piano behind me. I too felt I was progressing too slowly. I too felt my teacher was holding me back.

Piano is very time intensive. It requires colossal patience to learn piano as an adult. Give yourself time, lots and lots of time. In hindsight I now realize you need 4 or 5 years of experience (4000 - 5000 hours) before you can realistically assess your piano skills.

TL;DR if you enjoy it, don't quit.


"the lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne." -- Chaucer.
Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2828409
03/18/19 07:05 PM
03/18/19 07:05 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
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Canada
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Apogius?

Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2828433
03/18/19 08:37 PM
03/18/19 08:37 PM
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Learning any musical instrument right takes a lot of time. In the beginning people make lots of big leaps progressing, but once you got some fundamentals down the leaps become smaller and further time in between. Most adults this is where they start feeling frustrated they expect to concour things overnight and it isn't going to happen. As the old saying goes... the journey is the reward. Enjoy the learning process and seeing even minute advances.

In music school we were taught that a common problem is people keep looking at the big goal at the end, trouble is that goal is years away. So look at the major goal they would say the "Big G" and then start breaking it down in to it's component pieces you have to learn those are your "Little G" goals. Little G goals should be small enough to complete in short time periods like week or month. Then keep a practice journal and track your progress. When you get frustrated review your practice journal and notice you actually have complete some of the Little G goals and are making progress towards the Big G goal. There are other values to practice journals but for now focus on using one to see progress when you feel you aren't making any.

Also remember one of the great things about studying music is it never ends there is always something to work on that never stop until you do. That why many Jazz player play the same handful of tunes their whole lives, because their is always a new path thru the song to discover everyday.

Re: disaster [Re: keystring] #2828495
03/19/19 12:51 AM
03/19/19 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Apogius?


Yes - why didn't they reply !

I guess we will just have to wonder ..................

Re: disaster [Re: Moo :)] #2828504
03/19/19 01:34 AM
03/19/19 01:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
Originally Posted by keystring
Apogius?


Yes - why didn't they reply !

I guess we will just have to wonder ..................

Maybe they just wanted opinions...and they surely got some smile

Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2828507
03/19/19 01:50 AM
03/19/19 01:50 AM
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Fair enough.

I felt it was a very sad post to read, maybe it was depressive realism on my part, but given how many teachers there were I sensed piano was not for them.

I have heard some adults learn as a group - so that was another suggestion I thought of - but the OP is disappeared.

Never mind, I'm always starting and stopping hobbies so I can relate.

Sometimes its good to quit - maybe they'll start again something else to enjoy smile !

I quit piano lessons as a child as my teacher was tormenting me with the aural tests (I had an entire 30 minutes once of singing and I didn't touch the piano).

I remember after that lesson that I would stop, but I had to finish the term as no she would NOT refund it, and I remember being very very happy for stopping !

Last edited by Moo :); 03/19/19 01:52 AM.
Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2828599
03/19/19 10:15 AM
03/19/19 10:15 AM
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I have not read all the posts prior to this so I apologize if this just mimics some of them …..

My take on it is that apoquis (the OP) is low on patience and that is a deal breaker when learning to play piano …. or any instrument.

APOQUIS you need to accept that you are a beginner and need advice from experts (teachers).

Listen to your teacher and do the best you can.

You need to accept the fact that you may not be able to do things as quickly as you would expect.

Just keep trying.

That is absolutely ALL YOU CAN DO.

Switching teachers everytime something goes badly is not the answer.

If you stick with it for a while (6 months) and just do your best, you will find that you are now beginning to get better.

Believe me (and others) it is the only way. Nothing else works.


Last edited by dmd; 03/19/19 10:16 AM.

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Re: disaster [Re: outo] #2829207
03/20/19 06:43 PM
03/20/19 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by outo
Reading your post I wonder if you suffer from: 1. Too high expectations for the rate of learning 2. Lack of patience with the process 3. Focusing too much on the material chosen for teaching instead of the teaching process itself.

What method or piece is chosen is less important than how your teacher and you approach it. Also, it is good not to question a teacher's methods until you have been trying them for a bit longer, unless it is clear that the teacher is not competent. You tell us nothing about how the teachers taught you: What happened on lessons and what kind of instruction you got for home practice, Those are things that matter the most imo.



thank you for replying.well ,i might have high expectations.I do also have the will to practice 4 or 5 hours per day.

Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2829216
03/20/19 07:21 PM
03/20/19 07:21 PM
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Hi all ,
thank you all for taking the time to reply to me.
and to keystring ,let me apologise for the late response.I do value each and everyone's time to reply and help .REALLY THANKS to all of you.
now ,Let me clarify some things here.

First ,with every teacher ,I do ask to sit on the piano and play whatever it is I can play ,specifically Beyer and Czerny opus 599 some of the first excercises ,so they will know what is it I can or I can't do.
About the Herve Pouilqard ,yes that was Polyphonie en Do excericises from Duvernoi that made me mad and quit trying this.
I do tell teachers I am a complete begginer.But ,still I do ask the teacher to review my situation and do what they should .What I want is crystal clear to me but ,rocket sience for my teachers so far : I want a teacher that teaches me one ,two ,three or even more things ,give me some stuff to study ,and I do have the expectation that when I will sit and practice these ,to be able to perform these in a manner that is not abysmal and ,if not good ,is at least decent.
Yes I was referring to clefs .My first female teacher insisted on clefs of G and F from the very start.
So I don't have any problem to start from the very beggining .But when teacher tells me study this and I can not perform it ,that is a source of dissapointement for me .This also tells me that maybe teacher DOES NOT understand what is it that I need to practice and improve it.

Anyway i have found another teacher ,she is a solist ,recorded CDs ,and I told her I am willing to invest many hours per day to practice.I have my second lesson for next Friday ,and i will let you know what happened.
Also ,I am ready to sit and practice 4 or 5 hours per day.Okay I admit I might split this to 2 or 3 sessions ,but I am.Also bought an Alesis Coda Pro Piano to be able to practice properly at least for the first 1-2 years.

I will keep you informed what will happens with the new teacher,but I feel I do TRUST her ,which was not the case with everyone else.

Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2829280
03/20/19 11:33 PM
03/20/19 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by apogius
Originally Posted by outo
Reading your post I wonder if you suffer from: 1. Too high expectations for the rate of learning 2. Lack of patience with the process 3. Focusing too much on the material chosen for teaching instead of the teaching process itself.

What method or piece is chosen is less important than how your teacher and you approach it. Also, it is good not to question a teacher's methods until you have been trying them for a bit longer, unless it is clear that the teacher is not competent. You tell us nothing about how the teachers taught you: What happened on lessons and what kind of instruction you got for home practice, Those are things that matter the most imo.



thank you for replying.well ,i might have high expectations.I do also have the will to practice 4 or 5 hours per day.


I would think that is far too much...the mind needs rest to learn and unless you are advanced/full time student I would expect diminished returns after 2 hours or so...overworking does not really help with learning to play.

Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2829334
03/21/19 04:51 AM
03/21/19 04:51 AM
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Glad you found a teacher you trust. Stick with it, practice playing slow, and be patient, it does take time.
The adult all in one books start with both clefs, but with very easy music, so you learn to read and play correctly with both hands.

Personally I find two hours enough, I break that into about 4 sessions through the day.
Good luck, and remember to enjoy the learning process!

Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2829336
03/21/19 04:53 AM
03/21/19 04:53 AM
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hi outo

Thanks for replying

Given my disastrous experience so far there is my practice schedule ,freaking made this myself ,thanks go to my teachers :P :

30 minutes for scales
30 minutes for schmitt exercices
30 minutes hanon exercises
30 minutes czerny op 599

and 2 hours Method Rose .Of course you can see that Bach's Anna Magdalena is not included in this.

And for you all to have a good laugh ,I recently "discovered" that the Bach 1st book which i own foer Ages , IS also called Anna Magdalena ... :S

Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2829339
03/21/19 05:10 AM
03/21/19 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by apogius
hi outo

Thanks for replying

Given my disastrous experience so far there is my practice schedule ,freaking made this myself ,thanks go to my teachers :P :

30 minutes for scales
30 minutes for schmitt exercices
30 minutes hanon exercises
30 minutes czerny op 599

and 2 hours Method Rose .Of course you can see that Bach's Anna Magdalena is not included in this.


Just my opinion of course, but to me that sounds like a recipe for a disaster... Far too much technical exercise. You should only do those AFTER going through them carefully with a teacher AND with regular observation HOW you play them. Otherwise they can do more harm than good.

It seems to me you try to replace quality practice with quantity practice. But it just does not work that way with instrument training and musical development. Often less is more and you advance better with an hour a day, until you start to play long and advanced works.

Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2829342
03/21/19 05:24 AM
03/21/19 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by apogius

Given my disastrous experience so far there is my practice schedule ,freaking made this myself ,thanks go to my teachers :P :

30 minutes for scales
30 minutes for schmitt exercices
30 minutes hanon exercises
30 minutes czerny op 599

and 2 hours Method Rose .Of course you can see that Bach's Anna Magdalena is not included in this.


Did your teacher assign you this schedule of scales and exercises? I'm not sure if these are so useful to you now.
I admire your will to adhere to this schedule, but I would quickly burnout if I would try to follow this, and I think you will too! If you want to do this for the long run, you'll have to make sure you are able to keep on doing this and enjoying it.
Remember it's not only the amount of time invested that counts but also the attention and the quality of the work that is important. And practicing regularly. And having fun!

If I were you, I would drop the scales and exercises and do an hour a day of Méthode Rose, every day, but not more than an hour.
How is your reading? As a beginner I would invest in that too (more than in technique!). Take a score and call out note names without rhythm, clap rhythms, call out note names on rhythm... Invest half an hour a day in this too.


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Re: disaster [Re: apogius] #2829344
03/21/19 05:27 AM
03/21/19 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by apogius

Given my disastrous experience so far there is my practice schedule ,freaking made this myself ,thanks go to my teachers :P :

30 minutes for scales
30 minutes for schmitt exercices
30 minutes hanon exercises
30 minutes czerny op 599

and 2 hours Method Rose .Of course you can see that Bach's Anna Magdalena is not included in this.

And for you all to have a good laugh ,I recently "discovered" that the Bach 1st book which i own foer Ages , IS also called Anna Magdalena ... :S

Aren't you jumping out of the frying pan straight into the fire?

This is from your original post:
Quote
.....my main problem is until now that I can't play different notes reading two different keys (clefs?) at the same time


It seems to me you're repeating all the same mistakes, even more so than before.
Are you going to start again from the beginning - properly - or are you going to jump in way deeper now than you were with your previous teachers, who you blame for your current problems?

Anyway, I won't post any more here - you pays your money and you takes your choice.


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
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