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CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? #2826190
03/13/19 07:05 AM
03/13/19 07:05 AM
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Darkwasp Offline OP
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Hello!
Can CLP-645 owners here please tell your current keyboard touch settings? It's been bothering me for a while because default value (Medium) feels too light (I feel like I am triggering samples with hard hammer strikes too easily) , and the next one (Hard1) already feels a bit heavy, and on Hard2 you have to really bang on keys to sound louder. What you've changed, if changed anything at all?


Yamaha CLP-645
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Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: Darkwasp] #2826192
03/13/19 07:13 AM
03/13/19 07:13 AM
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JoeT Offline
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I have the P-515 with the same NWX action and I changed the touch setting to "Soft 1".


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: JoeT] #2826194
03/13/19 07:29 AM
03/13/19 07:29 AM
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jamiecw Online content
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Originally Posted by JoeT
I have the P-515 with the same NWX action and I changed the touch setting to "Soft 1".


Sorry, at the risk of intruding this thread, how does that help the OP? They are on medium and are already triggering high sounding samples...setting it on soft, does this not mean they will be triggering even higher sounding notes with minimal effort negating what the end solution needs to be?

Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: jamiecw] #2826197
03/13/19 07:36 AM
03/13/19 07:36 AM
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JoeT Offline
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Originally Posted by jamiecw
Sorry, at the risk of intruding this thread, how does that help the OP?

Well, the OP asked for "your" touch sensitivity setting. So I answered.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
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Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: Darkwasp] #2826205
03/13/19 07:59 AM
03/13/19 07:59 AM
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FWIW, I've made an initial submission to Yamaha about the P-515 touch control settings not being flexible enough - I need to follow up with more detail. Just *perhaps* one day they'll provide an update to allow finer control over the velocity curve. I wouldn't care if it was some kind of back-door thing that required a file to be uploaded over USB or something. Anyway, IF (and that's a BIG IF) they ever do provide an update, I assume it would apply to the CLP as well.

Greg.

Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: sullivang] #2826211
03/13/19 08:27 AM
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Darkwasp Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by jamiecw
Sorry, at the risk of intruding this thread, how does that help the OP?

Well, the OP asked for "your" touch sensitivity setting. So I answered.

No, it's totally okay, thank you for your answer. So people playing on even softer sensitivities, that's curious. Maybe it's my technique here to blame, not the piano?..
Originally Posted by sullivang
FWIW, I've made an initial submission to Yamaha about the P-515 touch control settings not being flexible enough - I need to follow up with more detail. Just *perhaps* one day they'll provide an update to allow finer control over the velocity curve. I wouldn't care if it was some kind of back-door thing that required a file to be uploaded over USB or something. Anyway, IF (and that's a BIG IF) they ever do provide an update, I assume it would apply to the CLP as well.

Greg.

I just discovered that there is also touch sensitivity control in voice settings of the piano, with 0-127 range, with default on 64. Gonna try that setting, though on first impression it works kinda strange.


Yamaha CLP-645
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: Darkwasp] #2826216
03/13/19 08:51 AM
03/13/19 08:51 AM
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Good luck - I haven't found that other setting to be helpful yet, myself. Btw, maybe the CLP has a different response to the P-515, because I too find the Medium setting too "hard" (too hard to reach FF). I've actually created a curve that I apply with external processing (when I can be bothered). I have the main Keyboard touch setting on Medium, and apply an exponentially increasing boost, finishing up mapping 108 to 127.

Greg.

Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: Darkwasp] #2826219
03/13/19 09:12 AM
03/13/19 09:12 AM
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JoeT Offline
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Originally Posted by Darkwasp

No, it's totally okay, thank you for your answer. So people playing on even softer sensitivities, that's curious. Maybe it's my technique here to blame, not the piano?

This is the reason why these settings exist: Touch is highly individual. So while you have difficulties reaching softer velocities, I usually struggle at reaching higher ones.

There are numerous more settings affecting the reaction to touch inside the Voice Edit menu.

Volume
Touch Sensitivity
Brightness

Also when using headphones toggling Binaural in the System Sound menu might be worth a try.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: Darkwasp] #2826224
03/13/19 09:29 AM
03/13/19 09:29 AM
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It's too bad this piano doesn't have a true velocity curve adjustment ... something more than just hard, medium, soft.

Sullivang has a P515 that lacks a velocity curve. So he feeds MIDI to his computer, uses software to modify it to his taste, and he feeds it back to the piano.

The 645 in question here is farther up the chain, isn't it? I think it deserves a velocity curve, eliminating the need for Sully's engineered solution.
But I think you don't get that with any piano at any price. You need a Sully kludge, or a VST.

Or am I wrong?

Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: Darkwasp] #2826226
03/13/19 09:37 AM
03/13/19 09:37 AM
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Darkwasp Offline OP
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Originally Posted by JoeT

There are numerous more settings affecting the reaction to touch inside the Voice Edit menu.

Volume
Touch Sensitivity
Brightness

Also when using headphones toggling Binaural in the System Sound menu might be worth a try.

Hmm. Question is, should I really tamper with those settings though?.. I might unintentionally end up with settings that don't replicate response of a real piano, and ruin my technique. I guess (maybe I am wrong, please correct me if I am) that pianist should adapt to piano keys, not the other way around, because that's the case with real acoustic pianos. I know real piano's touch can be adjusted too, but it's not as easy as pushing a few buttons on digital piano's control panel, so adjusting here is not really an option. I thought that default piano settings should more or less closely replicate real piano, that's why I asked if anyone changed it.

As for binaural - I tried the binaural for a while when I just bought the piano, but turned it off when I discovered that some intervals sound a bit off. Overall it's interesting sound option, but it does not fit for practice because you can't precisely monitor your playing with it.


Yamaha CLP-645
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: Darkwasp] #2826231
03/13/19 09:59 AM
03/13/19 09:59 AM
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JoeT Offline
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Originally Posted by Darkwasp
Question is, should I really tamper with those settings though?

Of course, these settings only change the sound and by default these aren't saved over a power off anyway.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: Darkwasp] #2826247
03/13/19 10:35 AM
03/13/19 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Darkwasp

...Maybe it's my technique here to blame, not the piano?..


There can be a lot of truth in that, one way to check this, is leave the setting to medium and try to hit the offending keys (the ones you say are louder) with various fingering and see if you can alter the volume levels...and even get from pp at least to ff and anything in between...if you can then yes your technique may need a bit of work. You can repeat this setting with changing the touch settings to see if you get more favourable results...

On the other hand, if you find the volume does not alter by much no matter how soft/hard you hit with various finger patterns than you may have a technical issue with the CLP645...

Personally, I find the no 5 fingers the hardest to control especially with faster music...and my DP highlighted that to me! smile

Edit: PS & yes the pianist (well a good one) should be able to adjust to the piano as long as the piano isn't a piece of cr*p grin

Last edited by jamiecw; 03/13/19 10:37 AM.
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: Darkwasp] #2826816
03/14/19 03:47 PM
03/14/19 03:47 PM
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I use Hard 1 for Czerny, Hanon, Scales and Arpeggios and Medium for the rest (in my case: Burgmüller, Bach, Beethoven Sonatinen and little more...)


Originally Posted by Darkwasp

I just discovered that there is also touch sensitivity control in voice settings of the piano, with 0-127 range, with default on 64. Gonna try that setting, though on first impression it works kinda strange.



Is there a touch sensitivity control with 0-127 range? Does it override the keyboard touch settings?

Last edited by Sol Finker; 03/14/19 03:49 PM. Reason: typo

Jaime CLP-645
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: Sol Finker] #2826817
03/14/19 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Sol Finker

Is there a touch sensitivity control with with 0-127 range? Does it override the keyboard touch settings?

It works separate from it and shifts the velocity range down and up entirely.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7605
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: JoeT] #2826819
03/14/19 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Sol Finker

Is there a touch sensitivity control with with 0-127 range? Does it override the keyboard touch settings?

It works separate from it and shifts the velocity range down and up entirely.


I am going to try it right now.
Thank you.


Jaime CLP-645
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: JoeT] #2826824
03/14/19 04:09 PM
03/14/19 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Sol Finker

Is there a touch sensitivity control with with 0-127 range? Does it override the keyboard touch settings?

It works separate from it and shifts the velocity range down and up entirely.

Well, it only works with sensitivity set to Fixed, which I suppose is interesting for organ, harpsichord, etc.

Thank you


Jaime CLP-645
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: Sol Finker] #2827022
03/15/19 03:39 AM
03/15/19 03:39 AM
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Darkwasp Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Sol Finker
I use Hard 1 for Czerny, Hanon, Scales and Arpeggios and Medium for the rest (in my case: Burgmüller, Bach, Beethoven Sonatinen and little more...)

I think I'm going to do the same. My teacher also recommended me to use maximum touch hardness setting , but I forgot to ask her if that applies only for exercises, or I should use it for actual musical pieces too (we are working strictly on my technique currently, though I'm learning some other pieces on my own).
Originally Posted by Sol Finker
Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Sol Finker

Is there a touch sensitivity control with with 0-127 range? Does it override the keyboard touch settings?

It works separate from it and shifts the velocity range down and up entirely.

Well, it only works with sensitivity set to Fixed, which I suppose is interesting for organ, harpsichord, etc.

Thank you

It works with piano tones too, at least on CLP-645. Default value is 64, increasing it raises touch sensitivity, and decreasing lowers it. Settings that I'm trying for music right now are Medium touch with 58 touch sensitivity in voice settings, works great so far.


Yamaha CLP-645
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: Darkwasp] #2827026
03/15/19 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Darkwasp

I think I'm going to do the same. My teacher also recommended me to use maximum touch hardness setting , but I forgot to ask her if that applies only for exercises, or I should use it for actual musical pieces too (we are working strictly on my technique currently, though I'm learning some other pieces on my own).


Personally I would take care when following this advice and ensure that your teacher truly understands digital pianos. I will shortly be writing a review of my new Kawai CA78 in direct comparison with my acoustic upright which sits next to it. I have actually *lightened* the touch of the Kawai a shade to be closer to the acoustic action. Obviously some pianos have heavier actions, and maybe your teacher’s does, but the advice could equally well be coming from an incorrect assumption about the action of DPs.


“If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) - stolen from Kreisler
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: ShyPianist] #2827040
03/15/19 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist

Personally I would take care when following this advice...


I agree with the above...I also wonder what the end-game is to set a DP to the hardest possible setting (even if it is for exercises like Hanon). Doing so, does not change the actual physical weight of the action, instead it requires the pianist to play harder to reach higher velocities. So you end up with having to hit keys harder to get f, ff etc. and to get down to p or pp becomes an extremity in terms of having to apply the lightest of touch ending up in either ghost notes or a lacklustre sound...

My issue with DP touch settings is that it's too linear, it has to be either hard, too hard or soft and too soft. Hence why medium tends to be the best compromise in order to allow a player to reach the entire velocity range the DP allows without having to exert either too much pressure or vice versa. This is also another reason why I like VSTs that allow user customised velocity curves (e.g. Pianoteq in my case).
Even then, the best velocity I have found is one that resembles a slanted minimally curved S shape and that setting does not deviate too much from the medium setting but enough to set the velocity range to be quiet when playing softly (I can get p and pp despite my limited technique) and f, ff when applying enough speed and pressure.

No one should have to either bang on the keys as if a madman on a door to get a good forte or tip toe as if a ninja on a roof - do that on a real acoustic and the result will be the most cacophonous unpleasant sound or ghosted notes.




Last edited by jamiecw; 03/15/19 05:16 AM.
Re: CLP-645 - your touch sensitivity setting? [Re: ShyPianist] #2827056
03/15/19 06:24 AM
03/15/19 06:24 AM
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Darkwasp Offline OP
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist

Personally I would take care when following this advice and ensure that your teacher truly understands digital pianos. I will shortly be writing a review of my new Kawai CA78 in direct comparison with my acoustic upright which sits next to it. I have actually *lightened* the touch of the Kawai a shade to be closer to the acoustic action. Obviously some pianos have heavier actions, and maybe your teacher’s does, but the advice could equally well be coming from an incorrect assumption about the action of DPs.

My teacher has CLP-545, which is the previous generation of Clavinovas, and funny thing I noticed is that despite she has hardness on highest possible setting (hard2), it feels like something between Medium and Hard1 on my CLP-645 (on the same volume level). So indeed she may have no idea how hard is touch on my piano on hard2, actually. Gonna explore this topic more on my next lesson.
I'd like to read that review btw, because I actually liked CA78's action when I tried it in store, but it was a bit above my finances and I didn't like the sound of it for some reason. I wonder how the action stands out compared to real piano.
Also what do you mean under "incorrect assumption", can you please explain? I'm starting to wonder why DPs even allow to change touch sensitivity because you can already adjust volume level if it sounds too quiet or too loud.


Yamaha CLP-645
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