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Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: AZNpiano] #2826631
03/14/19 06:01 AM
03/14/19 06:01 AM
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Posts: 140
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Vladimir Dounin Offline OP
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
If government wants to set standards then these standards should be set for teachers rather than for students.

That makes no sense to me. Standards ARE for students. It's up to the individual teacher to do the teaching. Some teachers teach TO the standards (coverage only), and other teachers teach MUSIC, which will include the standards--maybe not in the prescribed order.

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
In 51 year since 1968, my Diploma with Distinction from Moscow conservatory was seen and read ONLY ONE TIME

You need to get out more. Or maybe you should just enjoy your retirement.


When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".

If someone wants to improve the situation with musical education, start must be done with the teachers.


Vladimir Dounin
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Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2826650
03/14/19 07:44 AM
03/14/19 07:44 AM
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Canada
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Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

What is wrong in my way to suggest the same kind of test for colleagues of mine? Why I can not challenge them for a discussion in this TRADITIONAL for any science way? Why joke and humor are so unwelcome here?



Because people respond to posts in good faith, genuinely wanting to help other musicians. No one is interested in being "tested" or answering trick questions.


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B. Mus., M.Mus. (piano performance & pedagogy).
Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: pianist_lady] #2826654
03/14/19 07:55 AM
03/14/19 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by pianist_lady
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

What is wrong in my way to suggest the same kind of test for colleagues of mine? Why I can not challenge them for a discussion in this TRADITIONAL for any science way? Why joke and humor are so unwelcome here?



Because people respond to posts in good faith, genuinely wanting to help other musicians. No one is interested in being "tested" or answering trick questions.


Amen to that sentiment, pianist lady!


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Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2826701
03/14/19 10:28 AM
03/14/19 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin


When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".

This is all backwards. YOU have everything backwards. First of all, there are "hand positions", not "posture of your hands", but this is about English, and I don't fault your use of English, which quite obviously is strained.

There is NOTHING I spend more time on with all students than getting the hands and body right, because without this you can damage your hands and body, so no matter how well you play ultimately you may not be able to play at all, because of crippling habits.

If you assume from that that I or any other teacher ignores everything else, the music, you are simply wrong.

If you are suggesting that there are a lot of "teachers" who really know very little and who harm students, I could not agree more.
Quote

If someone wants to improve the situation with musical education, start must be done with the teachers.

That's pretty obvious. It's also impossible, because the average teacher is average.

When an extremely talented student is in the hands of an average teacher, the results are unfortunate, but that's just the way the world works.

Last edited by Gary D.; 03/14/19 10:29 AM.

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Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: pianist_lady] #2826851
03/14/19 05:33 PM
03/14/19 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by pianist_lady
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

What is wrong in my way to suggest the same kind of test for colleagues of mine? Why I can not challenge them for a discussion in this TRADITIONAL for any science way? Why joke and humor are so unwelcome here?



Because people respond to posts in good faith, genuinely wanting to help other musicians. No one is interested in being "tested" or answering trick questions.


Why then you do not want and do not let me TO HELP OTHER MUSICIANS? Is it only your monopoly? Why do you discriminate me in this case?

I never wanted TO TEST YOU. I do not know and will never know YOU, so you personally do not exist for me. However, I wanted TO TEST MY METHOD PUBLICLY with YOU together. Not because of your personality but because of your FUNCTION here as my opponent.

Call your self in any way, tell any story about your self - it does not matter. Only one thing is important: that you are an expert in music education and you CAN test and comment on my method. I repeat: who are you, where are you etc. - it does not matter in our situation.

I do my job - I brought here my method. You are skeptical - this is wonderful, because I have a lot of enthusiasts around me. Therefore all of them are not credible, when you ARE CREDIBLE for me and anyone else in the world. Just because you hate this idea - thank you very much for your hatred, and let us start test.


Vladimir Dounin
Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2826852
03/14/19 05:35 PM
03/14/19 05:35 PM
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Orange County, CA
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Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".

You missed my point completely.

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
If someone wants to improve the situation with musical education, start must be done with the teachers.

I disagree. You can have THE MOST FANTASTIC piano teacher on Earth working with THE DUMBEST kids and THE MOST IGNORANT parents, and the results will be equally putrid.


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Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Gary D.] #2826859
03/14/19 05:47 PM
03/14/19 05:47 PM
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Posts: 140
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Originally Posted by Gary D.
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin


When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".

This is all backwards. YOU have everything backwards. First of all, there are "hand positions", not "posture of your hands", but this is about English, and I don't fault your use of English, which quite obviously is strained.

There is NOTHING I spend more time on with all students than getting the hands and body right, because without this you can damage your hands and body, so no matter how well you play ultimately you may not be able to play at all, because of crippling habits.

If you assume from that that I or any other teacher ignores everything else, the music, you are simply wrong.

If you are suggesting that there are a lot of "teachers" who really know very little and who harm students, I could not agree more.
Quote

If someone wants to improve the situation with musical education, start must be done with the teachers.

That's pretty obvious. It's also impossible, because the average teacher is average.

When an extremely talented student is in the hands of an average teacher, the results are unfortunate, but that's just the way the world works.


1. What about the posture and hand position of Glenn Gould? Did he damage his hands and body with his posture and hand position?

2. I saw several young girls with their 4th and 5th fingers
bent in the direction of the thumb.

If I had been the parent of these girls spoiled for life, I would have brought their piano teacher to court.
It was he who disfigured them, forcing their immature fingers to "keep beautiful, like in the picture"


Vladimir Dounin
Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: AZNpiano] #2826863
03/14/19 05:55 PM
03/14/19 05:55 PM
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Canada
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Vladimir Dounin Offline OP
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".

You missed my point completely.

Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
If someone wants to improve the situation with musical education, start must be done with the teachers.

I disagree. You can have THE MOST FANTASTIC piano teacher on Earth working with THE DUMBEST kids and THE MOST IGNORANT parents, and the results will be equally putrid.


I had and have a few autistic students who are unqualified for public schools. They are considered mentally handicapped.
One of them brought the calendar with his face proudly (Printed by some medical society in Swiss). He got 2nd place in local piano competition. ALL of them can be taught with the right approach.

i do not say the same about the parents, of course. Here I am on your side.


Vladimir Dounin
Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2828320
03/18/19 02:08 PM
03/18/19 02:08 PM
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I was super busy when these posts came in, and wanted to respond in general.
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".

If someone wants to improve the situation with musical education, start must be done with the teachers.

We cannot tell someone's teaching through a few words in an ad, and we can easily project on the writer what we think he wants to say. As a student I'd contact this teacher and ask, "Can you explain why you said that?" and listen carefully - then have a trial lesson, watching and listening carefully. The other way around, I'd find it very difficult to set out in a few words what I do and how I work. I am interested in music teaching and have learned from various teachers about what they do. It can take months (at least) to even get an idea. An ad won't tell us much.

Your imaginary advert has a few possibilities:
- It may be, as you fear (from your later example), that this teacher wants to mould students into "hold a ball" strict shapes, possibly crippling them.
- It may also be that this teacher finds guidance in the physical side of playing to be sadly lacking, and has seen unfortunate results through this.

I would avoid the first teacher, but would want to know more about the second. Many people teach, but few do it well. There are many sides to learning to play the piano, and many skills to acquire.

What you are actually trying to promote is hard to get at, and nobody can be "against" you method, because we can't really get at what that is. By reading here and there I've gotten the idea the "correct notes in correct time" -- playing what's on the page rather than a vague imitation via Youtube -- is one of your ideas. Then there is "intensity" which is not just dynamics, but something more subtle that you have not managed to define, but may have elements such as articulation and other technical things we can do with music to lend it expression. I want to bring this back to skills.

If as a student I work with you, and you want me to bring out certain notes in a given way, then I must be technically able to do so. The use of the body ("posture of hands" as a single thing is silly) is part of it. I need to be able to have a sense of counting and timing, and this has to be developed. If you started to learn as a young child you may take this for granted, like holding a pencil is a thing we take for granted. If, as you suggest somewhere, a student is to follow a score while listening to his own recording, that student first has to be able to read music and understand all of it: pitch,timing, meter etc. CONVERSELY - if a student here submits his or her playing, you have to know what that student's abilities are. If any of those underlying skills are missing, because of how they have been taught, or where they are in their development, this has to be taken into account.

That, in summary, were my thoughts.

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2828323
03/18/19 02:13 PM
03/18/19 02:13 PM
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I have not run into any teaching that says you must always stress beat one in any measure of any music. The only thing a bit related is that when studying basic theory, simple meter will be taught in the manner of 4/4 = strong weak middle weak - as a kind of generic idea. But in actual music, I don't think a good teacher would push this kind of thing for every piece of music: it depends on what is in the music. You have mentioned this "beat one" idea in many posts. I don't know how common this actually is.

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2828350
03/18/19 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

1. What about the posture and hand position of Glenn Gould? Did he damage his hands and body with his posture and hand position?

I believe he did. I believe he was able to play so well because he was a genius. He did so in spite of horrendous habits. And I believe he learned those habits from someone, or someone did not tell him early that there was a better way to play. I believe his physical habits shortened his life.


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Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Gary D.] #2828403
03/18/19 06:45 PM
03/18/19 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary D.
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

1. What about the posture and hand position of Glenn Gould? Did he damage his hands and body with his posture and hand position?

I believe he did. I believe he was able to play so well because he was a genius. He did so in spite of horrendous habits. And I believe he learned those habits from someone, or someone did not tell him early that there was a better way to play. I believe his physical habits shortened his life.

I think it is dangerous to look at how someone else did something that was unique to them and assume that if you copy that, you'll be just as good.

Each person has a unique physiology and while there are certain basic techniques that are used for playing piano, there are other things that vary from person to person - like bench height and fingering, and even what their hands look like when playing something.

A good teacher knows how to assist a student in finding what works best for them without risk of injury.


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Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: keystring] #2828514
03/19/19 03:31 AM
03/19/19 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I was super busy when these posts came in, and wanted to respond in general.
[quote=Vladimir Dounin]When I read ads: "I focus on MOST IMPORTANT in music - on posture of your hands", I always want to complete this ad with the words: "Because I can not teach anything else".


What you are actually trying to promote is hard to get at, and nobody can be "against" you method, because we can't really get at what that is. By reading here and there I've gotten the idea the "correct notes in correct time" -- playing what's on the page rather than a vague imitation via Youtube -- is one of your ideas. Then there is "intensity" which is not just dynamics, but something more subtle that you have not managed to define, but may have elements such as articulation and other technical things we can do with music to lend it expression. I want to bring this back to skills.



That, in summary, were my thoughts.



I published these my rules a few times already in 2006-2007. However, I lost any interest to spend my time after I understood that everything that I suggest will be reduced to verbal exchange only. Now, after 12 years it so easy for everyone to make and send recordings.

Imagine that this is a medical site. I suggest testing my new headache treatment device, assuring that the headache disappears within 2 minutes of using the device.

In response, no one wants to test the device. Without any test, they just vote that the device is useless.

I have already explained several times that I have a very effective TEACHING method. But I never said that I have a set of magic words that replaces the work on the student and on his/her music. No one set of magic words can substitute playing and listening to real music.

To demonstrate the method and its impact, I need a real student (without a name, address, appearance, etc. - I absolutely do not need it). Only in this case will the effect of the method be seen. Here should be student's playing BEFORE the lesson, and then playing AFTER the lesson (when short but effective assignment is done).


In my ads, I indicate: "Immediate result during a one-hour lesson or you do not pay at all".
But I do not promise anyone any result from simply reading my last post on "piano forum"


Vladimir Dounin
Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2828571
03/19/19 08:43 AM
03/19/19 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
I published these my rules a few times already in 2006-2007. ....

You quoted part of what I wrote in sincerity. You then copied over your response to Vmishka on Pianostreet. That person provided you with a recording. What you posted here obviously is not a response to me, since it's a copy of your message to someone else.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=65596.0 (reply no. 24)

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2828573
03/19/19 08:53 AM
03/19/19 08:53 AM
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I was responding to your imaginary teacher advertising "hand posture", and thoughts about that. If you wish to respond, please respond to what I wrote about. They are legitimate concerns.

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: keystring] #2828612
03/19/19 10:31 AM
03/19/19 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
I was responding to your imaginary teacher advertising "hand posture", and thoughts about that. If you wish to respond, please respond to what I wrote about. They are legitimate concerns.

Keystring, I always appreciate your reasoned responses. However, I think this may be misplaced. Copying and pasting a response to another person in another thread is not a way to engage in conversation on a forum.

In fact, I think the OP has made it very clear he's not here to really engage in discussion at all, except to talk about what he thinks is the only right way to do things.

I understand completely having personal convictions about something and wanting to share what you feel is very important with others. But who, when they see a great movie, says to his acquaintances, "You must love this movie and no other is acceptable. No, I will not talk about a movie you love, only the movie I want to talk about," and receives any positive response?

There is a clear lack of respect for anyone in this forum who dares to ask questions, let alone disagrees with the OP. Which is unfortunate, because perhaps it is indeed a very good "movie," but no one will see it now because of his heavy-handedness.

Last edited by Morodiene; 03/19/19 10:32 AM.

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Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2828624
03/19/19 10:47 AM
03/19/19 10:47 AM
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Morodiene, that is why I pointed out that the response I received was a copy of something which fortunately I had read just before and so noticed "Hm, this sounds familiar."Otherwise, who would realize?

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: keystring] #2828855
03/19/19 11:24 PM
03/19/19 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
Morodiene, that is why I pointed out that the response I received was a copy of something which fortunately I had read just before and so noticed "Hm, this sounds familiar."Otherwise, who would realize?

Originally Posted by keystring
Morodiene, that is why I pointed out that the response I received was a copy of something which fortunately I had read just before and so noticed "Hm, this sounds familiar."Otherwise, who would realize?


Dear Keystring,

No 1.

If person A says that 2+2 makes 7 and person B says that 2+2 makes 7 as well, why I can not answer both of them with the same words stating that 2+2, in my opinion, is very close to "4"?

I was polite enough to change name of the site. It is a pity that I can not address to you by the name on this forum. I can not understand: what people are afraid of? Why they are hiding there real names, if they do not do and say anything malignant?

Our problem is our opposite goals. I want to show everyone a very good method of teaching music at a distance in action. I want everyone to see its practical application and immediate results. I say - look: this method immediately and completely changes and improves ANY performance of ANY musician.

You and your allies would never want to give me the opportunity to show my method in action. Instead, you spend hundreds of words to prove that the method is no good and I am also a very bad person.


What are you afraid of? I do not persuade anyone to lose their virginity, sell drugs or rob banks. I suggest to make a recording of ANY music and bring here. For example, "Mary had a little lamb", or the anthem of your country played by the ONE FINGER, as I showed it recently as an example in "Revolutionary New Interpretation". I played for you "Happy Birthday" with one finger for clarity - answer me with the same.

I DON'T NEED your GOOD performance. In the case of a perfect performance, I simply cannot correct mistakes due to the fact that they simply do not exist in this performance. I NEED a BAD performance to demonstrate my method.

No 2.

I know about your suffering because you "know what to do, but you cannot do for purely physical reasons." I sympathize with your torment, but I do not believe you.

Because 99% of my students came to me with exactly the same suffering as yours. And 100% of my students forgot about these torments forever, when they learned what exactly they should do during the performance of given musical work.

Let's agree on a deal:

You bring here your recording of the hymn of your country played with one finger. Play AS BAD AS YOU CAN. I give you instructions and you follow them.

If you say here at least once that you understand my instructions, but you cannot fulfill them for purely physical reasons, I publicly apologize for everything written here and solemnly announce that I do not understand anything in music and in teaching.


Take a deal?

I invite EVERYONE to this deal.


Vladimir Dounin
Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2828905
03/20/19 04:40 AM
03/20/19 04:40 AM
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Sorry for butting in, but maybe you need to find students, not teachers for your experiment. There is a seperate adult beginners forum.

Re: Petzold Minuet in G-Major. Please, help! [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2828952
03/20/19 08:45 AM
03/20/19 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
Originally Posted by keystring
Morodiene, that is why I pointed out that the response I received was a copy of something which fortunately I had read just before and so noticed "Hm, this sounds familiar."Otherwise, who would realize?

Originally Posted by keystring
Morodiene, that is why I pointed out that the response I received was a copy of something which fortunately I had read just before and so noticed "Hm, this sounds familiar."Otherwise, who would realize?


Dear Keystring,

No 1.

If person A says that 2+2 makes 7 and person B says that 2+2 makes 7 as well, why I can not answer both of them with the same words stating that 2+2, in my opinion, is very close to "4"?

I was polite enough to change name of the site. It is a pity that I can not address to you by the name on this forum. I can not understand: what people are afraid of? Why they are hiding there real names, if they do not do and say anything malignant?

Our problem is our opposite goals. I want to show everyone a very good method of teaching music at a distance in action. I want everyone to see its practical application and immediate results. I say - look: this method immediately and completely changes and improves ANY performance of ANY musician.

You and your allies would never want to give me the opportunity to show my method in action. Instead, you spend hundreds of words to prove that the method is no good and I am also a very bad person.


What are you afraid of? I do not persuade anyone to lose their virginity, sell drugs or rob banks. I suggest to make a recording of ANY music and bring here. For example, "Mary had a little lamb", or the anthem of your country played by the ONE FINGER, as I showed it recently as an example in "Revolutionary New Interpretation". I played for you "Happy Birthday" with one finger for clarity - answer me with the same.

I DON'T NEED your GOOD performance. In the case of a perfect performance, I simply cannot correct mistakes due to the fact that they simply do not exist in this performance. I NEED a BAD performance to demonstrate my method.

No 2.

I know about your suffering because you "know what to do, but you cannot do for purely physical reasons." I sympathize with your torment, but I do not believe you.

Because 99% of my students came to me with exactly the same suffering as yours. And 100% of my students forgot about these torments forever, when they learned what exactly they should do during the performance of given musical work.

Let's agree on a deal:

You bring here your recording of the hymn of your country played with one finger. Play AS BAD AS YOU CAN. I give you instructions and you follow them.

If you say here at least once that you understand my instructions, but you cannot fulfill them for purely physical reasons, I publicly apologize for everything written here and solemnly announce that I do not understand anything in music and in teaching.


Take a deal?

I invite EVERYONE to this deal.

The problem - one of them - is that first of all, you have been asked very specific questions about your technique, and challenged on them. But instead of further explaining and defending your method, you then accuse people of trying to "not give you the opportunity to show your method in action." What have you been doing this whole time with your recordings? We listened and disputed what we feel is out of line, and agreed with what we felt was correct.

This is all a very common tactic used by people who are narcissistic. They have the only True Answer to everyone's problem with ______. Anyone who does not listen to them and follow them like a puppy is deemed an idiot, crazy, or a part of some conspiracy to keep the True Answer from getting out and actually helping the world with ______.

How about be respectful of people who have minds that think for themselves and are rightfully asking questions to understand and perhaps we all can arrive at a clear picture of what you're saying - and <gasp> you might learn something from what others have to say as well! That's what a forum is all about.


private piano/voice teacher FT

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