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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2825944
03/12/19 03:19 PM
03/12/19 03:19 PM
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Scherbakov Alex Offline
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Thanks for the details. It is good that these small mistakes do not affect the quality of the piano tuning. (you should only take a closer look at locking the curve when changing files).
The picture is very visual and can really help users not to make mistakes when specifying the string.

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Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2826312
03/13/19 01:04 PM
03/13/19 01:04 PM
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Beemer Offline
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Seems overkill to produce a graphic so that a tuner can recognise the "lowest unwound note"
Ian (beta)


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: Beemer] #2826334
03/13/19 01:51 PM
03/13/19 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Beemer
Seems overkill to produce a graphic so that a tuner can recognise the "lowest unwound note"
Ian (beta)

It would be overkill, I suppose, if we're assuming the tuner understands English well enough to decipher the words. ;-) I am working on translations for some of the more common languages, but I don't think I'll ever cover them all.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2831278
03/25/19 03:30 PM
03/25/19 03:30 PM
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Posts: 52
Scherbakov Alex Offline
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Hello!
In the piano most often you can find the bass stem of the following design:

[Linked Image][Linked Image]

In this construction, the steg is not directly on the deck (as in the tenor and the treble), but hangs like a bridge. The strings are attached to the steg in one place, and the steg to the deck in the other, literally nearby. It can be assumed that this adds more mobility to the steg. When vibrations of the string (if we take into account only vibrations that are perpendicular to the deck), such a design can create micro variations in the tension of the string. Those. (in the example with the piano) the string oscillations forward - backward from the swinging of the steg will be up - down. As stated in this article:

https://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/weinreic/mistuned.html

[Linked Image][Linked Image]

The mobility of the string can lead to an increase or decrease in tone. It depends on the nature of the mobility of the mount. If the support is springy - the string is longer - the tone is lower. And vice versa. But in the bass stem with such a construction as in the photo above, the vibrations in the direction of the string length are also added.
The deck design has a certain impedance, which is different at different frequencies. Also in the characteristics there is a phase angle and force.
Snapshot:

[Linked Image][Linked Image]

(From the article:)

https://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/wogram/inputimp.html

Since the impedance, the force and the phase angle in a particular place of the stick and a specific string have different characteristics depending on the frequency. This can lead to a certain shift in the frequencies of the overtones of the sounding bass string. (from some frequencies steg springs, from some vice versa ..). That, in principle, occurs in entwined strings near the piano and mao-size grand pianos with a similar device of the bass head. Perhaps this leads to the fact that two seemingly identical strings have a discrepancy in overtones. As well as the discrepancy with the frequencies that tuners calculate according to the inharmoniousness formula. And this brings additional complexity to the setting.

I do not have any research on this, and just expressing my guesses.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2831286
03/25/19 03:42 PM
03/25/19 03:42 PM
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Scherbakov Alex Offline
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..and still have a question.
My new phone has two microphones. One is used for voice, the other is for noise reduction. Apparently he works in antiphase and thereby deducts the surrounding noise during a conversation. This is very common in the latest phone models. I also noticed that it is possible to record stereo and video with stereo sound. I wonder if the tuner uses two microphones when tuning? Can this improve the sensitivity of the program, or vice versa? Sometimes standing waves can occur in the piano body or in certain rooms. If the length of the standing wave will correlate with the distance between the microphones of the phone, will this not lead to any effects? (frequency canceled ..)?

This is interesting and, I think, takes place to pay attention ..

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2831421
03/25/19 10:06 PM
03/25/19 10:06 PM
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Posts: 136
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Alex,

From my understanding we only use/access the one primary microphone. There might be some small benefit in using 2 mics if the primary mic happened to be in the node of a standing wave, but with the complex acoustical space created by the large piano soundboard and the room I don't think there would be any true nodes where it is silent at certain frequencies. I think the overhead of trying to record with 2 mics would probably outweigh the benefits. On the 2 mic destructive interference, here's some random trivia: if the two mics were 6 inches (15 centimeters) apart then the frequency with a half-wavelength equal to the distance between the mics would be about would be about 1130 Hz (roughly C#6).

On the soundboard/bridge post above, that was a very interesting read...I've not seen it explained quite that way before. I was aware that there was some shifting of the harmonics in the low bass, but I assumed it was due to resonances in the soundboard. When I first started with this app I tried using an inharmonicity model that would account for these shifted harmonics, but it ended up causing trouble (picking up noise and pretending that the noise was shifted harmonics, and distorting the tuning curve). Now the way I do it is if there is a harmonic that is significantly shifted from where it is supposed to be, the app will ignore that harmonic for the inharmonicity calculation. This gives the double benefit of excluding the loud "false harmonics" due to longitudinal vibrations in the string. Then during the tuning, the multiple strobe rings representing multiple harmonics helps to dilute the influence of any shifted harmonics that we ignored for the tuning curve calculation. Lastly, I could be completely wrong, but from what I have observed, the lowest frequency harmonic seems more likely to be shifted more than higher ones. And the strobes for the low bass are set to measure higher harmonics in the range from A2 to A4. We never actually never use harmonics frequencies below A2 (110 Hz) for tuning. At that point we're only listening to the upper partials.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2833489
03/31/19 05:43 PM
03/31/19 05:43 PM
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I thought an update might be appreciated regarding the direction I'm going with Easy Piano Tuner.

As current Beta testers have noticed I am in the process of renaming the app. I had originally settled on "Easy" to emphasize what I felt was an intuitive interface and easy learning curve, but honestly I've never been happy with that name. The app is currently named "Smart Piano Tuner" on the devices of Beta testers, but that's not going to be the final name either. I'm holding back with any further renames of the app until I'm 100% certain what the final name will be, because I don't want to repeatedly send people searching through their list of apps when I push updates.

Also because of the naming issue I've been holding back on pushing any updates to the main "Production" track since this January, and I've been encouraging users interested in getting the updates early to use the "Beta" track. The faster needle response, the temperament support, the improved note detection, and several minor changes are all still in Beta only. I realize that's not ideal, and I'm moving as quickly as I have time to finish what is probably going to end up as a "2.0" version release.

Lastly, I apologize for the unsolicited "announcement" tone of this post. I really appreciate your hospitality here at PianoWorld and I don't want to impose on that. I'm sensitive about not using someone else's forum for "free advertising" and I've been trying to keep all my posts related to ETDs/ETAs confined to this thread, and then only responding to questions. I am planning to create a more dedicated forum on my website that can be used for Q&A, announcements, etc., so as to not take unfair advantage of your hospitality here.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2833504
03/31/19 06:23 PM
03/31/19 06:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 751
Lincoln, NE
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That Guy Offline OP
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Thanks for the update Anthony!


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2833685
04/01/19 04:53 AM
04/01/19 04:53 AM
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Scotland
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David Boyce Offline
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I don't see your posts as promotional, Anthony, fear not! It's all interesting information. How about "Advanced Piano Tuner"?

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: David Boyce] #2833929
04/01/19 05:27 PM
04/01/19 05:27 PM
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Lincoln, NE
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That Guy Offline OP
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
I don't see your posts as promotional, Anthony, fear not! It's all interesting information. How about "Advanced Piano Tuner"?

Hmmm... You might be on to something there. 🤔 I like it. 👍


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, NE
www.thattuningguy.com
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2833946
04/01/19 06:20 PM
04/01/19 06:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,720
PA
daniokeeper Offline
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I just downloaded an app from Playstore called Smart Piano Tuner. It appears to be an ordinary chromatic tuning app.


Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.morethanpianos.com
(semi-retired)
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: David Boyce] #2834010
04/01/19 08:57 PM
04/01/19 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by daniokeeper
I just downloaded an app from Playstore called Smart Piano Tuner. It appears to be an ordinary chromatic tuning app.

Yeah, I had noticed that app as well. I think the developer named it that because it's a tuner app with a piano keyboard. Another reason for me to not use the name Smart Piano Tuner. (Reason #1 is that it sounds like you're talking about a person who is smart and also a piano tuner.)

Originally Posted by David Boyce
How about "Advanced Piano Tuner"?

I'm actually leaning towards one of those names where you mash words together to get a unique word that can be used as a "brand" instead of just a general descriptor. An example would be something like "EasyStrobe Piano Tuner". (Just an example) It's kind of a pain because every wordsmash combination sounds super corny the first time you say it out loud. 🤨

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2834013
04/01/19 09:28 PM
04/01/19 09:28 PM
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Posts: 1,412
Qubec, Canada
accordeur Online content
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Tony's Temper Tuner.


Jean Poulin

Musician, Tuner and Technician

www.actionpiano.ca
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: David Boyce] #2834110
04/02/19 04:19 AM
04/02/19 04:19 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,210
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Beemer Offline
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Originally Posted by David Boyce
I don't see your posts as promotional, Anthony, fear not! It's all interesting information. How about "Advanced Piano Tuner"?

Suits me too.


I'm all keyed up
2016 Blüthner Model A
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2839975
04/16/19 06:07 PM
04/16/19 06:07 PM
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Posts: 52
Scherbakov Alex Offline
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Oh yes, here came a video that demonstrates the mechanism for changing the ratio of overtones in addition to inharmonicity. Simple and schematic:




Shown for one frequency. And since the impedance is associated with the frequency, each overtone will behave individually. In more or less degree. Now it became clear.

A superficial look at wavelets led to the opinion that this is a more sensitive tool in the informative plan. I think their future.

"Each of the chirplets essentially models the underlying physics of motion of a floating object. Because it so closely captures the essence of the physical phenomena, the transform is near optimal for the problem of detecting floating objects.
Besides applying it to our radar image processing interests, we also found the transform provided a very good analysis of actual sampled sounds, such as bird chirps and police sirens, which have a chirplike nonstationarity, as well as Doppler sounds from people entering a room, and from swimmers amid sea clutter."

Quote from: [url=http://wearcam.org/chirplet/vi91/index.htm][/url]

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2840669
04/19/19 02:24 PM
04/19/19 02:24 PM
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I have the pro version. How far up the scale should I expect to be able to record inharmonicity measurements?
It stops around A6 for me.

Gary


Working on being a retired piano tuner.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: MilePost51] #2841030
04/20/19 06:22 PM
04/20/19 06:22 PM
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Vienna, Austria
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OE1FEU Offline
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Originally Posted by MilePost51
I have the pro version. How far up the scale should I expect to be able to record inharmonicity measurements?
It stops around A6 for me.

Gary


You should probably consider getting a phone with better microphones that don't do any Automatic Gain Control. I have a OnePlus 5 and it is superb in terms of recording and reproducing a piano. Here is an example of what this phone records out of the box:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9htzzbAHKE

It captures the full range for Smart Piano Tuner to get the inharmonicity calculaton right on my Steinway B.

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: MilePost51] #2841318
04/22/19 12:51 AM
04/22/19 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MilePost51
I have the pro version. How far up the scale should I expect to be able to record inharmonicity measurements?
It stops around A6 for me.

Gary


There is a hardcoded cutoff on measuring inharmonicity above note 75 (B6). There are multiple reasons for this:

  • The inharmonicity above C7 doesn't really matter much, since at that point you're mostly just tuning the fundamental to the overtones of the notes below.
  • The inharmonicity in the top octave is difficult to measure anyway because any overtones decay rapidly leaving just the fundamental harmonic.
  • Even though we're not measuring it directly, the inharmonicity in the top octave is approximated quite well by the extrapolation of the "best fit" curve (because on a log scale it ends up as stright line for most of the treble bridge).
  • To save on processing power we are actually not analyzing frequencies significantly above where C#8 would be, so the second harmonics of most of the notes in the top octave are out of range anyway.


On phone microphones, I'm not an expert. I would say that as long as you can get down to about 100 Hz before there's significant rolloff you're OK. We don't tune to frequencies below that...the 4th harmonic of A0 is at 110 Hz, and you're probably tuning to the 6th (165 Hz) and 8th (220 Hz) harmonics. So all the devices in the image below would work great except the iPhone3GS. (Sorry, I know iPhones aren't relevant here, that was just the first image I found on Google.)
[Linked Image]
(image credit blog.faberacoustical.com/)

Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2841386
04/22/19 09:49 AM
04/22/19 09:49 AM
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Thanks Anthony


Working on being a retired piano tuner.
Re: Using Easy Piano Tuner [Re: That Guy] #2846129
05/07/19 03:26 PM
05/07/19 03:26 PM
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Anthony, thank you very much for that beautiful piece of software.

My piano was last tuned in November, and it's a beast to tune. An 1887 Steinway B with the original agraffes and a re-stringing from 40 years ago. I have bought a really decent tuning lever 2 months ago to touch up on the one or other note, but your software gave me some courage (knowing that my regular technician will come over in 6 weeks anyway).

So, I took the plunge and tuned the whole piano, taking it from 439.1 to 440kHz.

This is the result:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ozX388jxik8QGqM6w0Xz_6_o_PW8YdFG

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