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Monsieur Chilly favours uprights.
Only if you would be faster than this, you would be in need of a grand:

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https://youtu.be/yHY-Cv4YnWE?t=1645

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Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
In my opinion the main advantage of the grand piano's action is that it gives much more control when playing p and pp, mainly because of it's escapement mechanism.
Why do you think the escapement mechanism gives more control for soft playing?

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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
In my opinion the main advantage of the grand piano's action is that it gives much more control when playing p and pp, mainly because of it's escapement mechanism. Because of this grand piano's action generally feels to me more precise, more controllable, and therefore more pleasurable.

Talking about the repeated notes, not only it allows faster repetition, but it also allows to play repeated chords very smoothly, without releasing the keys fully, something I miss very much on my home upright piano.


Ha, thank you, I mentioned this on another thread in respect of my tests of some "entry level" uprights in comparison with various digital pianos, grands and my own acoustic upright (where this is also possible). I was told in no uncertain terms that I was talking nonsense.
Unless you can give a reason why playing repeated but slow chords(the example you gave was the Chopin e minor Prelude)should be easier with the escapement mechanism, I remain unconvinced that that is correct.

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For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.

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Originally Posted by Sanfrancisco
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.
But after the hammer has struck the key, there's nothing you can do to make less of a break in sound other than use the pedal so I don't see why what you say is true. Can you explain why there would be more of a break in the sound when the grand action is not available?

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Originally Posted by Jitin

Not to mention digital sounds get outdated real fast!


I don't actually agree with this statement. Don't get tricked by marketing illusions. They get updated or replaced quickly but that doesn't make them outdated. I have a Roland RD 300s from 1990. Yes, it "only" has 8 voices, yes it has less polyphony, yes, it is screenless. but it works as well as the day I bought it and nobody can tell it from my newer (2011) RD 700NX.

Since that date I could have bought two newer versions but firstly I can't afford it and secondly I didn't want the RD800 and also I am a trifle underwhelmed by the "modern styling" of the RD 2000. I like to sit at a piano, not a flight control deck.

So don't get conned or pressured into thinking new always equals better.

It doesn't always, and "improvements" are often too minor to bother with.

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Originally Posted by Sanfrancisco
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.

This is all about the pianist,or how well the piano is regulated. It is often a case with grand pianos as well .
,

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This thead is really just about "should I buy a digital which is cheaper
and save for a grand piano " If you buy a good upright it will help you become a really advanced pianist and then you could trade in and buy a newish good grand .Problem Solved !

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No, it's a wall that can only be overcome with double escapement. You can get your letoff, drop, and damper height regulated to a concert level on an upright and you would still have to wait until a key fully rose to play it again on an upright. Regardless of the pianist's skill.

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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Sanfrancisco
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.
But after the hammer has struck the key, there's nothing you can do to make less of a break in sound other than use the pedal so I don't see why what you say is true. Can you explain why there would be more of a break in the sound when the grand action is not available?

I think what he means is this:

With an upright action, you have to let the key rise fully before you can strike it again. And by rising fully, it also lowers the damper on the string. So on a upright you cannot play a repeated note legato with itself (without pedal), without damping it between two strikes.

With a grand action you can do this, because you can restrike the key after it has risen only about half way (just above the let off point), at which time the damper has not been lowered onto the string yet (that happens only upon full release).


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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by Iaroslav Vasiliev
In my opinion the main advantage of the grand piano's action is that it gives much more control when playing p and pp, mainly because of it's escapement mechanism. Because of this grand piano's action generally feels to me more precise, more controllable, and therefore more pleasurable.

Talking about the repeated notes, not only it allows faster repetition, but it also allows to play repeated chords very smoothly, without releasing the keys fully, something I miss very much on my home upright piano.


Ha, thank you, I mentioned this on another thread in respect of my tests of some "entry level" uprights in comparison with various digital pianos, grands and my own acoustic upright (where this is also possible). I was told in no uncertain terms that I was talking nonsense.
Unless you can give a reason why playing repeated but slow chords(the example you gave was the Chopin e minor Prelude)should be easier with the escapement mechanism, I remain unconvinced that that is correct.


Well for a start, I don’t know just how slowly you play that piece but they are not especially slow chords when played at the appropriate speed. I believe I explained the reason already, as have others on this thread. I suggest you go and try to repeat notes on an entry level upright without letting the keys fully return first, then report back. (Am I getting the condescending tone right for this forum now? 😉)

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/11/19 04:58 PM.

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Originally Posted by JoBert
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by Sanfrancisco
For me it isn't a decrease in the ability to play fast repetitions on an upright that is most noticeable, but the inability to play slow repetitions legato. This crops up literally all the time. To have to allow the key to fully rise on repetitions in especially slow passages makes a noticeable unavoidable break in the sound. The only way to compensate for this is to over-pedal with the sustain, which then loses all the crisp clearness that is so lovely in for example Mozart adagio movements. I don't see how even a highly skilled pianist on an upright could fully overcome this. Compensate in other ways of course, but this remains a large deficiency of uprights.
But after the hammer has struck the key, there's nothing you can do to make less of a break in sound other than use the pedal so I don't see why what you say is true. Can you explain why there would be more of a break in the sound when the grand action is not available?

I think what he means is this:

With an upright action, you have to let the key rise fully before you can strike it again. And by rising fully, it also lowers the damper on the string. So on a upright you cannot play a repeated note legato with itself (without pedal), without damping it between two strikes.

With a grand action you can do this, because you can restrike the key after it has risen only about half way (just above the let off point), at which time the damper has not been lowered onto the string yet (that happens only upon full release).
Thanks, I think that makes sense. So I agree with the "easier to play legato without pedal" part but not with the "easier to play pp" another poster mentioned unless someone can give a good reason for that.

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I am the OP of this thread , and my main question was getting a digital with grand action or acoustic upright?

Why one is preferable if this will be your last piano o!??!!


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Originally Posted by Jitin
I am the OP of this thread , and my main question was getting a digital with grand action or acoustic upright?

Why one is preferable if this will be your last piano o!??!!

I think which is preferable depends on your situation and personal preferences. For example, one of the main reasons for getting a digital or hybrid is the ability to play with headphones. But if you don't have neighbors in a nearby apartment or other people living with you that wouldn't apply. If you check out The Piano Buyer(free link in left column)they have lists showing the advantages and disadvantages of grands, uprights, and digital/hybrids.


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Originally Posted by Jitin
I am the OP of this thread , and my main question was getting a digital with grand action or acoustic upright?

Why one is preferable if this will be your last piano o!??!!



Hi Jitin, I think this has been said before on this thread but I would expect if you have the budget then a *good* upright (ie not with the limitations I and others have mentioned) is generally preferable on pure action and sound terms. If you have a need to play with headphones or you want to do a lot of recording (an amazingly useful practice function as I’m finding already) then you might want a digital piano, as pianoloverus said. If it’s your last piano and you don’t need the digital functionality then I’d suggest you go for a really nice upright. 😊

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Originally Posted by Lady Bird
This thead is really just about "should I buy a digital which is cheaper
and save for a grand piano " If you buy a good upright it will help you become a really advanced pianist and then you could trade in and buy a newish good grand .Problem Solved !

I have just tried on my upright and yes I am very able to play repeated
changing chords legato -no pedal .
I am easily able to depress the chord again BEFORE THE CHORD TOTALLY RISES thereby enabling Legato in the LH
So is this because the piano has Double Repetition Action being a SAUTER130 I do not know .
I do remember difficulties with my old Yamaha U1. On my old Kawai grand I could also easily do this as well .

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Originally Posted by Jitin
I am the OP of this thread , and my main question was getting a digital with grand action or acoustic upright?

Why one is preferable if this will be your last piano o!??!!



As you can see from the responses, it's a question of your priorities. Perhaps everyone would like a concert grand and their own concert hall to play it in.

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Of course one does not have to buy an expensive upright just a reasonable one and work on things like "a slight touch" of pedal for not having too dry an affect in the above situations described.
Good digital pianos also have there place in some circumstances as well.

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Originally Posted by johnstaf
As you can see from the responses, it's a question of your priorities. Perhaps everyone would like a concert grand and their own concert hall to play it in.
Very true. smile

Reminds me of an old saying my mom would use on occasion; "you can't drink Champagne on beer money". smile

Rick


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Originally Posted by Rickster
Originally Posted by johnstaf
As you can see from the responses, it's a question of your priorities. Perhaps everyone would like a concert grand and their own concert hall to play it in.
Very true. smile

Reminds me of an old saying my mom would use on occasion; "you can't drink Champagne on beer money". smile

Rick

Well our house is paid for and even though the new piano was a big expense for us in our retirement years we bought it .It does give us joy .We did sell the old grand and the U1 and I do still keep a few
Piano students but I suppose it is like drinking champagne on beer money .Oh well ?

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