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Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
#2823638 03/07/19 06:51 AM
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Hi all, I've been putting off posting this thread because I'm slightly scared of some of you and don't want to get flamed!

Background:
Me - Royal College of Music, piano, to end of year one (then decided professional level performance was not going to be for me, couldn't cope with the nerves)
Child - developing a real interest in music, learning guitar, announced he wants to learn to play piano but with me, not with a teacher. He has dabbled with Bohemian Rhapsody already and seems to have got the bug.

So, I have toyed with the idea of teaching and getting a teaching diploma for many years now. What's stopping me is the time investment given that I work full time (when not posting on PW ;-) ). But I'm really very interested and becoming more so, hence commenting on this forum from time to time.

1) Please don't flame me for considering using my son as a guinea pig
2) I'm very interested in teaching methods that don't use the standard Middle C, white key methodology.
3) This is all going to be very flexible, because at the end of the day my son wants to play songs he likes, he's not going to be a classical pianist. But I want to nurture his interest.
4) We can't afford formal piano teaching for him right now, even if he wanted it, and I want to see how he goes with his guitar lessons over time first.

Any pointers please? I have the ABRSM diploma reading list and I'm gradually trying to acquire books on there that aren't about £80 a pop. I've read around a fair bit over the years and ordered a bunch of stuff yesterday. I came across the Robert Pace piano method in the Denes Agay "Teaching Piano" book and ordered the first method book to have a look at because I'm interested in the approach of introducing all key signatures very early on.

This is rambling sorry, I'm being quick on a break, but I'd love to get ideas for reading materials, possible teaching materials, just please no nasty comments about teaching my own child. I am quite an advanced pianist, or I was, and my knowledge is pretty good to get him going. If he really seems to thrive then I would look for a teacher. Thanks in advance.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/07/19 06:51 AM.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
ShyPianist #2823667 03/07/19 08:09 AM
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Hi ShyPianist!
How exciting to start teaching your son. Now I am not a piano teacher and cannot give you any pointers towards material.

I don't know your son at all, but he is 12 years old and soon entering puberty. I would consider treating him as much as possible as a young adult who gets pianolessons. I would schedule the pianolessons with him, give him homework, and try to refrain from reminding him to do his homework. If you notice he doesn't do the homework, wait until you have a lesson, and when he cannot play it so well, you ask how come. So it is his responsibility. If you make it your responsibility, the risk is that he will start rebelling against it when he is a bit older.

Good luck, and I hope you have a great time together at the piano!


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
ShyPianist #2823681 03/07/19 08:52 AM
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In addition to reading pedagogy books, I would suggest studying a few different methods so that you see how the material is presented-- the order, pacing etc. Also, consider the purpose/goal for the lessons: what should your student be able to do next week, next month, 3 months, etc. Then think about all of the individual skills a student needs to achieve those goals. As pianists we have consolidated many skills into automatic processes, and when we don't break things down and create a detailed road map, students end up with problems.
Furthermore, a quick search online will show a zillion websites and blogs created by piano teachers sharing tips and materials.


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
pianist_lady #2823705 03/07/19 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by pianist_lady
Furthermore, a quick search online will show a zillion websites and blogs created by piano teachers sharing tips and materials.


It certainly does pianist_lady, an overwhelming amount of them of highly varying quality, which is why I thought I'd also post this question here. Do you know of any particular ones you might recommend? I wonder if teaching methods vary a great deal in, say, the USA and Canada and here in the UK?

I've been reading some summaries of the various method books and obviously if I decided to study for a qualification I would buy a load of them and study them as you say, but at the moment that feels like overkill and I'd again be interested in pointers towards any specific ones that might be of interest given what I've said so far. I don't have the luxury of having somewhere to go and browse lots of them unfortunately so I need to be targeted to avoid spending a fortune. I am also constantly lamenting the lack of hours in the day when I also need to fit in a full time job, general mother/household duties and my own practising time. I wish I could invent a time bubble around my piano that would let me stop the clock!

Originally Posted by Animisha
I don't know your son at all, but he is 12 years old and soon entering puberty.


Yes, I obviously do and the prospect of teaching him is more than a little terrifying! Great tip to make it formal(ish) with set "lesson" times. I think that would work for both of us.


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
ShyPianist #2823728 03/07/19 11:18 AM
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Please do realize that teaching your own children is usually infinitely harder then a stranger.

Don't be discouraged if teaching your own child does not go very well. This is not an indicator of future teaching experiences.


When you play, never mind who listens to you. R.Schumann.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
Learux #2823733 03/07/19 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Learux
Please do realize that teaching your own children is usually infinitely harder then a stranger.

Don't be discouraged if teaching your own child does not go very well. This is not an indicator of future teaching experiences.


Thank you, yes I intimated as much above! I’ve mulled over this for a number of years in respect of both my kids, but as neither of them (much to my disappointment) has shown much musical inclination until now it’s never really been something I’ve had to give serious thought to. Strangely (probably not strange at all actually!) they have both shown much more interest since they’ve heard me playing a lot. I even caught my son videoing me practising some thorny left hand work to go show his school music teacher (I don’t think he actually did show him thankfully!).

My daughter is keen on learning some tunes she knows so I’ve shown her bits and pieces, but unlike my son she shows no signs yet of having the application to do anything more structured. She started group lessons with the local community music school but got bored with it very quickly.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/07/19 11:29 AM.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
ShyPianist #2823743 03/07/19 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
It certainly does pianist_lady, an overwhelming amount of them of highly varying quality, which is why I thought I'd also post this question here. Do you know of any particular ones you might recommend? I wonder if teaching methods vary a great deal in, say, the USA and Canada and here in the UK?


I just wanted to add that it's very clear that in the twenty or so years since I was last playing music seriously, things in the piano & music world have gone digital just as in every other sector. So I'm genuinely sorry if I'm asking questions that should be answered by knowing where to look on the web. Whereas I am comfortable with that in almost every other field, as far as music goes I was brought up old-school and I'm having to find my away around all the resources out there today!

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/07/19 11:59 AM.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
ShyPianist #2825031 03/10/19 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
It certainly does pianist_lady, an overwhelming amount of them of highly varying quality, which is why I thought I'd also post this question here. Do you know of any particular ones you might recommend? I wonder if teaching methods vary a great deal in, say, the USA and Canada and here in the UK?


I just wanted to add that it's very clear that in the twenty or so years since I was last playing music seriously, things in the piano & music world have gone digital just as in every other sector. So I'm genuinely sorry if I'm asking questions that should be answered by knowing where to look on the web. Whereas I am comfortable with that in almost every other field, as far as music goes I was brought up old-school and I'm having to find my away around all the resources out there today!

A word about digital: it's getting better, every year. It has not evolved as quickly as some of us wished, and that is largely about things possible not yet implemented. For instance, it is probably 100% technologically feasible to put totally separate sound samples on board for the una corda, but to this moment most affordable keyboards simply knock the volume and treble down a bit when the left pedal is pressed.

(I have not been out to stores to "road test" the latest models, so it is possible this and many things are already here, but I'm willing to bet the price tag will be out of the budget of all the students I work with.)

The advantages are not just because of small homes, lack or privacy and lack of sound proofing. One of my young students is playing on a spinet with a cracked bridge, and the piano was never great when it was new. It can't be tuned up to pitch. Any decent full sized digital would be a huge step up.

The fact is that acoustic pianos are less used every year by average students for a very good reason. You have to be very careful where you buy acoustics, and then there is the constant upkeep. They will never stay in tune unless you are in a home with constant temperature and humidity, and it is inevitable that they will need the attention of a technician. Then there is the problem of finding a good technician. If you have a great acoustic, and you have a big home with a constant temperature, and you've found that great technician, you are in business.

But that simply is not the case for most families, as I relearn on a weekly basis dealing with the horrendous instruments that most of my students have in their homes.

Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
Gary D. #2825045 03/10/19 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary D.
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
It certainly does pianist_lady, an overwhelming amount of them of highly varying quality, which is why I thought I'd also post this question here. Do you know of any particular ones you might recommend? I wonder if teaching methods vary a great deal in, say, the USA and Canada and here in the UK?


I just wanted to add that it's very clear that in the twenty or so years since I was last playing music seriously, things in the piano & music world have gone digital just as in every other sector. So I'm genuinely sorry if I'm asking questions that should be answered by knowing where to look on the web. Whereas I am comfortable with that in almost every other field, as far as music goes I was brought up old-school and I'm having to find my away around all the resources out there today!

A word about digital: it's getting better, every year. It has not evolved as quickly as some of us wished, and that is largely about things possible not yet implemented. For instance, it is probably 100% technologically feasible to put totally separate sound samples on board for the una corda, but to this moment most affordable keyboards simply knock the volume and treble down a bit when the left pedal is pressed.

(I have not been out to stores to "road test" the latest models, so it is possible this and many things are already here, but I'm willing to bet the price tag will be out of the budget of all the students I work with.)

The advantages are not just because of small homes, lack or privacy and lack of sound proofing. One of my young students is playing on a spinet with a cracked bridge, and the piano was never great when it was new. It can't be tuned up to pitch. Any decent full sized digital would be a huge step up.

The fact is that acoustic pianos are less used every year by average students for a very good reason. You have to be very careful where you buy acoustics, and then there is the constant upkeep. They will never stay in tune unless you are in a home with constant temperature and humidity, and it is inevitable that they will need the attention of a technician. Then there is the problem of finding a good technician. If you have a great acoustic, and you have a big home with a constant temperature, and you've found that great technician, you are in business.

But that simply is not the case for most families, as I relearn on a weekly basis dealing with the horrendous instruments that most of my students have in their homes.


Hi Gary, oh sorry that’s my fault! When I mentioned “digital” in this context I was really meaning in terms of the availability of online resources and materials, in response to the earlier implied comment that I could find the answers to my questions in Google. 😊 When I was a young learner and then an undergraduate it was still very much a case of going to the music library, and not being a teacher at present I’m just not up to speed on reliable, high quality online resources, hence asking for a little guidance.

In terms of digital versus acoustic I’ve been into that in great detail recently as I’ve been choosing a DP for myself to complement my upright. And I totally agree that a decent DP is far preferable to a terrible acoustic instrument.

My son and I had our first lesson today and it went pretty well. He was very chuffed to realise that he was reading notes on the stave by the end of the session.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/10/19 07:35 PM.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
ShyPianist #2825067 03/10/19 08:44 PM
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Well, I just learned something new. I am feeling rather chuffed with myself. grin



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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
ShyPianist #2825119 03/10/19 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
My son and I had our first lesson today and it went pretty well. He was very chuffed to realise that he was reading notes on the stave by the end of the session.

Are you using a method book series with him? If so, which one did you pick?


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
Tyrone Slothrop #2825179 03/11/19 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by ShyPianist
My son and I had our first lesson today and it went pretty well. He was very chuffed to realise that he was reading notes on the stave by the end of the session.

Are you using a method book series with him? If so, which one did you pick?


I hardly dare say which book we picked since I’ve read some scathing things about it since, but we looked together at the various ones available locally (NOT a comprehensive selection) and selected the first book of the John Thomson Modern Piano Course. Massive caveat here, I have no intention of just following one method book, and I’m well aware of the dangers of too much spoon fed fingering that has been mentioned in respect of this book. The problem I had with many of the other books I saw (bear in mind I had him with me so could not take hours over this!) was the pages are so busy! Colours, pictures, stuff all over the place scattered around the actual music, massive staves and notes, making my head hurt just to look at them. We both much preferred the clean, monochrome, no nonsense layout.

What I do like about this book is a) it isn’t babyish and b) the music is immediately “musical” (really not always the case from what I’ve seen). I’m also going to supplement this with other material as I find it, not least because this book uses the Middle C/set hand position method that I’m not keen on. Having said that, for teaching reading from the grand stave Middle C is rather a nice way of doing that I think. My son liked the realisation of “why” Middle C is called Middle C.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/11/19 03:27 AM.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
ShyPianist #2826592 03/14/19 02:05 AM
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Maybe you could pay for one or two hours on pedagogy with a piano teacher. Does your piano teacher teach pedagogy? You could ask her which book to start your son with.

Middle C is a good approach. After a few months, you can start moving the hand position away from middle C.

Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
Candywoman #2826596 03/14/19 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Candywoman
Middle C is a good approach. After a few months, you can start moving the hand position away from middle C.

He's 12. Do you really need to spend a few months in middle C?


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
ShyPianist #2826605 03/14/19 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
[quote=Candywoman] Middle C is a good approach. After a few months, you can start moving the hand position away from middle C.

He's 12. Do you really need to spend a few months in middle C?


God no! I was thinking more like a week or two. I don’t really rate it as a long term approach for teaching practical skills (not least because it’s so boring!) but it does seem helpful for starting note reading for the reason I mentioned above.



Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/14/19 03:20 AM.

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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
Candywoman #2826607 03/14/19 03:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Candywoman
Maybe you could pay for one or two hours on pedagogy with a piano teacher. Does your piano teacher teach pedagogy? You could ask her which book to start your son with.

Middle C is a good approach. After a few months, you can start moving the hand position away from middle C.


I don’t have a teacher Candywoman. I am using my own knowledge to get my playing back to something like the level it was. If I then decide to take it further and go for diplomas I will have to rethink, but right now I’m quite happy working alone.


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
ShyPianist #2826609 03/14/19 03:44 AM
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Oh by the way, I meant to say I’ve found a UK based Facebook group which I’ve joined and from there found pointers to a few UK-based blogs, including someone who seems to do teachers diploma mentoring. So that’s something I might explore in time. I’m trying to get away from Facebook rather than getting drawn further in, but it seems to be where things are at.


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
ShyPianist #2826610 03/14/19 03:45 AM
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I have a 12-year-old beginner, and I assumed she didn't like the kiddie books, so I put her in the most adult-like book possible. Then she commented that she actually liked the kiddie books her younger siblings are using. And she wanted the colorful stickers that I give out.

In any event, here's another plug for Alfred's Premier Piano Express. The book moves at a decently swift pace, and there are no kiddie pictures or clutter on the page. And very few finger numbers. But you do have to understand the landmark notes + intervallic reading approach. This approach assumes that letter names will eventually be caught up as if learning through osmosis.

Using this method, my students are reading by intervals quite fluently, but since I'm not comfortable letting any skills lag behind by too much, I make them read out the letter names after playing the piece by intervals. I also introduce transposition quite early on as a supplement to the plain C Position. That way, kids are NOT associating notes with certain fingers. It's the NUMBER ONE problem Transfer Wrecks bring with them to my studio--kids stuck in Middle C Position and/or C Position.


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
AZNpiano #2826611 03/14/19 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
I have a 12-year-old beginner, and I assumed she didn't like the kiddie books, so I put her in the most adult-like book possible. Then she commented that she actually liked the kiddie books her younger siblings are using. And she wanted the colorful stickers that I give out.

In any event, here's another plug for Alfred's Premier Piano Express. The book moves at a decently swift pace, and there are no kiddie pictures or clutter on the page. And very few finger numbers. But you do have to understand the landmark notes + intervallic reading approach. This approach assumes that letter names will eventually be caught up as if learning through osmosis.

Using this method, my students are reading by intervals quite fluently, but since I'm not comfortable letting any skills lag behind by too much, I make them read out the letter names after playing the piece by intervals. I also introduce transposition quite early on as a supplement to the plain C Position. That way, kids are NOT associating notes with certain fingers. It's the NUMBER ONE problem Transfer Wrecks bring with them to my studio--kids stuck in Middle C Position and/or C Position.


I’ve just had a look at the online sample of that book AZNPiano, and yes I like the look of it. I think I’ll order a copy, thanks for the suggestion. It wasn’t one of the ones I was able to look at locally. My son is certainly NOT a pictures and colourful stickers kind of guy 😉. He often surprises me, like announcing he wanted me to teach him, but not on this occasion!


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Re: Teaching my 12 year old and some general questions
ShyPianist #2826615 03/14/19 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
My son liked the realisation of “why” Middle C is called Middle C.

Indulge me: why is Middle C called Middle C? In other words, why does this make sense to you? Because of the mirror thing?

I was taught the same thing, and I do understand the concept, but did you know that in the time of Bach that in the top staff, the one we call treble today, 1st line was that C, the one we call E today? In other words, in Bach's keyboard music when you see the top line and think it is F, it's D. Everything is a line higher than what we read today.

If you use Thompson, white out most of the numbers or your son will read the finger numbers and it will kill reading.

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