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Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2823359
03/06/19 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
I explained already that I do not need your real name, your photo or video. Just ANONYMOUS audio is enough.


Just Audio? This is both mind-boggling and, to my mind, extremely limiting if you are serious about online teaching since you are only getting a very small part of what is going on without any video. I can't imagine how it can be done.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
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Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: Colin Miles] #2823390
03/06/19 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
I explained already that I do not need your real name, your photo or video. Just ANONYMOUS audio is enough.


Just Audio? This is both mind-boggling and, to my mind, extremely limiting if you are serious about online teaching


I'm not sure he's talking about online teaching per se, as much as an online supplement to teaching, or even to self learning.

The reaction here is instant and unanimously negative, but there is some potential.

Also English is not his native language and while he types generally well there may be some nuances lost.


gotta go practice
Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: TimR] #2823392
03/06/19 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TimR

I'm not sure he's talking about online teaching per se, as much as an online supplement to teaching, or even to self learning.

The reaction here is instant and unanimously negative, but there is some potential.

Also English is not his native language and while he types generally well there may be some nuances lost.


I can’t speak for others, but I was simply taking issue with this sentence “Music teachers will certainly be forced in the future to work mainly on line as well.” Because while sadly it may end up being true I think it must be resisted at all costs.


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Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: ShyPianist] #2823410
03/06/19 05:19 PM
03/06/19 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
I can’t speak for others, but I was simply taking issue with this sentence “Music teachers will certainly be forced in the future to work mainly on line as well.” Because while sadly it may end up being true I think it must be resisted at all costs.

Not clear what the ultimate result of resisting would be. Technology has changed life in both obvious and not immediately obvious ways. On a thread on the digital forum, someone had suggested calling a particular person from an online directory, and someone else was surprised and said something to the effect of, shouldn't the etiquette be to send an email first? But as was pointed out in that thread, what did people do before email? Just never call anyone?

In the area of education and learning, distance/online education is becoming more and more common and even omnipresent. My alma mater which is the oldest uni in the US, has even started online courses and even degrees can be had from "largely" online study - they decided that one should have a token physical presence at the university for a few weeks - big LOL.

Perhaps performance activities such as music and art will be among the last to fall, but I think the writing is on the wall, and resisting or not resisting will hardly change anything in the long-term, except maybe resisting will make you feel better wink


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Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2823413
03/06/19 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Perhaps performance activities such as music and art will be among the last to fall, but I think the writing is on the wall, and resisting or not resisting will hardly change anything in the long-term, except maybe resisting will make you feel better wink

There are many subjects which may well be done better online. I have taken part in some myself. However, the idea of limiting it to just audio seems to me like trying to play with both hands tied behind your back. Yes, obviously the internet can be a vast resource and there are many very good piano teaching videos there - think of Graham Fitch, John Mortensen, Josh Wright - to name but three who I have found well listening and watching. But just the audio?


Roland LX7

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Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: Colin Miles] #2823415
03/06/19 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Perhaps performance activities such as music and art will be among the last to fall, but I think the writing is on the wall, and resisting or not resisting will hardly change anything in the long-term, except maybe resisting will make you feel better wink

There are many subjects which may well be done better online. I have taken part in some myself. However, the idea of limiting it to just audio seems to me like trying to play with both hands tied behind your back. Yes, obviously the internet can be a vast resource and there are many very good piano teaching videos there - think of Graham Fitch, John Mortensen, Josh Wright - to name but three who I have found well listening and watching. But just the audio?


But in the field of instrumental teaching and playing where is the imperative? Is the assumption that soon our air will be so poisoned and we will all be such social recluses that we can’t leave our homes? What about chamber music and orchestras? Are they to become virtual as well? Playing by video conference?

I can see there is a strong role for online courses in other subjects, including some musical subjects - theory, history, analysis, composition. But as for private instrumental lessons, you might as well suggest virtual dancing or gymnastics classes! (And yes I know they exist for fun, but I can’t see anyone seriously suggesting they could replace actual training).

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/06/19 05:51 PM.

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Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2823420
03/06/19 06:07 PM
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It seems to me that the force of the reaction here is out of proportion to the drawbacks of the suggestion.


gotta go practice
Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: TimR] #2823422
03/06/19 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TimR
It seems to me that the force of the reaction here is out of proportion to the drawbacks of the suggestion.


Oh undoubtedly! I think perhaps the concept behind the thread pushed a few people’s buttons at the same time.


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Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: ShyPianist] #2823433
03/06/19 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by TimR
It seems to me that the force of the reaction here is out of proportion to the drawbacks of the suggestion.


Oh undoubtedly! I think perhaps the concept behind the thread pushed a few people’s buttons at the same time.


Indeed! There is some merit in even rubbish ideas as they make one think outside one's 'normal' boundaries.


Roland LX7

South Wales, UK
Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: AZNpiano] #2823575
03/07/19 02:32 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Okay, let's say you hear a wrong note in bar 12. Do you say:

1) .

2) Apply the key signature in bar 12.

3) Choose a better fingering in bar 12.

3) Move your thumb closer to the black keys in bar 12.

4) Curve your finger more to get between the black keys in bar 12.

5) Forget legato. Use a staccato to help you re-position your hand faster in bar 12.

Or are you really going to just say....

Mistake in bar 12

???


I am not a CHEATER. I am a TEACHER and do not steal money from my students, of course.

1)
Mistake in bar 12
. I recorded for you bars 9-16 twice. Please, tell me: do you like my first way to play or the second way? What exactly is different?
I know you as a good student and believe that you will not make me to feel a shame that my students can not read notes properly.

2)
Apply the key signature in bar 12.
I recorded for you bars 9-16 twice. Please, tell me: do you like my first way to play or the second way? What exactly is different?
I know you as a good student and believe that you will not make me to feel a shame that my students can not read notes properly.


3)
Choose a better fingering in bar 12.
Our fifth finger is too weak for this job. Try fourth or even first finger and tell me, with which one of these two do you feel yourself more confident. Let me listen to both of these fingers as well.

3)
Move your thumb closer to the black keys in bar 12. Try: A - to keep your thumb (in MY language - finger No1) as FAR as possible FROM the black keys. B - as close as possible TO the black keys. What is more convenient for you?

4)
Curve your finger more to get between the black keys in bar 12
. It is very difficult to play between black keys with straight fingers. Try to curve your finger more, let me to listen to both variants (with curved and with straight finger). What do you think about it, when do you feel yourself better?

5)
Forget legato. Use a staccato to help you re-position your hand faster in bar 12
. My teacher always told us that legato makes us clumsy, awkward and kills rhythm and articulation. I remembered these his words when listened to your bar 12.

Or are you really going to just
say...
write and play. I do not believe in effectiveness of spoken words.

Mistake in bar 12


Vladimir Dounin
Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: Colin Miles] #2823581
03/07/19 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Colin Miles
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
I explained already that I do not need your real name, your photo or video. Just ANONYMOUS audio is enough.


Just Audio? This is both mind-boggling and, to my mind, extremely limiting if you are serious about online teaching since you are only getting a very small part of what is going on without any video. I can't imagine how it can be done.


I had 3 blind students. The first one is only one of all my students who fetched the 12th but still Price at Tchaikovsky Competition and is an active concert pianist today.

The second was only one out of all students of that year at university, who got a job immediately. I have a special letter of the State Examiner on his "outstanding performance" at the State Exam.

The third one preferred eventually IT profession (more money) but had excellent marks for music.

Many pianists (I am one of them) like to play and practice with closed eyes. Experienced listeners do the same because our ears can not compete with eyes. Our brain prefers to focus on visual information and ears are out of focus, if eyes are open.

Good teacher can hear wrong fingering from another room, not only with closed eyes.

Why so many words around instead of practical testing?


Vladimir Dounin
Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2823582
03/07/19 03:05 AM
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Vladimir, your response to mine.
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

I am a teacher as well and I know the situation in real (not in theory). I never would be interested in this kind of offer like mine, if I have no problem with my students in general, or with this particular student, .....

Nothing insulting for me or for my neighbour is in such questions. Tomorrow he will come to my class with any his/her question and I will do my best to help him/her in turn. It is like asking your friend to check that the back of your coat is not dirty after you touched the newly painted wall with it.......

Such scenarios are reasonable and normal. You are not coming across that way, and I tried to signal this to you. Your topic begins with the idea of the Internet, and it has its own situations of communication. You are an older person like myself, and we did not grow up in that age. It is usual, when joining a forum, to first participate in ongoing conversations, and then when starting a thread among peers, to have to go both directions. You are addressing fellow teachers as though they were students, or as though you were the master teacher and they your junior, and this will cause friction. It is how you presented things.

So you are saying here that if a teacher has a problem you would be interested in helping them. That is different than just saying "Share your students' playing and I'll tell you want is wrong." Perhaps you are trying to bring across your own ideas. Your intent is not clear, and I can't see it being received well in its present form - and that seems to be happening.

There are times when teachers do present problems, and usually it is a collaborative effort where several teachers weigh in, for an exchange of many ideas. That usually works better in forums.

Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2823586
03/07/19 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin
Originally Posted by Colin Miles

Just Audio? This is both mind-boggling and, to my mind, extremely limiting if you are serious about online teaching since you are only getting a very small part of what is going on without any video. I can't imagine how it can be done.


I had 3 blind students. .......
Many pianists (I am one of them) like to play and practice with closed eyes.....

I don't think you said that you would only listen to audio, but that only audio was one of the choices that was fine for you.

In regard to this:As a student, my first playing was as a self-taught child since I was given a piano, some music, and left alone. When I returned to piano decades later, all the mis-learned physical habits were in there. I am relatively expressive in my playing and with simpler music can pull it off. It is only when a teacher sees the playing that they will see awkward motions and various clues for sure. I am experienced in working on-line with teachers and have done so with more than one. The visual absolutely is an essential component. It can even be such a thing as a student sitting too low or too close to the piano. Some clues in their playing may give you an idea they are doing that, but you can only be sure of what is going on when you see them. It is already harder remotely through a camera, than live where you can walk around.

I think "all the questions rather than submitting things" is because people are not certain about taking part in this, and don't quite understand what it might end up involving.

Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: keystring] #2823590
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Originally Posted by keystring
Vladimir, your response to mine.
Originally Posted by Vladimir Dounin

I am a teacher as well and I know the situation in real (not in theory). I never would be interested in this kind of offer like mine, if I have no problem with my students in general, or with this particular student, .....

Nothing insulting for me or for my neighbour is in such questions. Tomorrow he will come to my class with any his/her question and I will do my best to help him/her in turn. It is like asking your friend to check that the back of your coat is not dirty after you touched the newly painted wall with it.......

Such scenarios are reasonable and normal. You are not coming across that way, and I tried to signal this to you. Your topic begins with the idea of the Internet, and it has its own situations of communication. You are an older person like myself, and we did not grow up in that age. It is usual, when joining a forum, to first participate in ongoing conversations, and then when starting a thread among peers, to have to go both directions. You are addressing fellow teachers as though they were students, or as though you were the master teacher and they your junior, and this will cause friction. It is how you presented things.

So you are saying here that if a teacher has a problem you would be interested in helping them. That is different than just saying "Share your students' playing and I'll tell you want is wrong." Perhaps you are trying to bring across your own ideas. Your intent is not clear, and I can't see it being received well in its present form - and that seems to be happening.

There are times when teachers do present problems, and usually it is a collaborative effort where several teachers weigh in, for an exchange of many ideas. That usually works better in forums.


You are right. My mistake was that I judged the others from my self. I like FREE offers, for me it is just a sign of confidence in your product. I am not afraid of FREE sampling in supermarket, of FREE checking of my car in garage, of FREE trial of somebody's services etc. If some medical doctor invited me for FREE check of my body - I will come.
However, for many people FREE means only a cheese in mouse trap. And they almost consider you a criminal for only the word FREE from your mouth.

I was sure that only people like myself would pay attention to my post and all the rest will just ignore it. I meant something like advertising in a newspaper: read ONLY, if you need it. However, everyone decided that I addressed namely to him/her, forced them to have unpleasant contact with me and was not gentle and polite enough to do so.

O.K., now I know it.


Vladimir Dounin
Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2823597
03/07/19 04:31 AM
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I also addressed the issue of audio vs. video, and do think this is important.

Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: keystring] #2823609
03/07/19 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by keystring
[quote=Vladimir Dounin][quote=Colin Miles]

I don't think you said that you would only listen to audio, but that only audio was one of the choices that was fine for you.

In regard to this:As a student, my first playing was as a self-taught child since I was given a piano, some music, and left alone. When I returned to piano decades later, all the mis-learned physical habits were in there. I am relatively expressive in my playing and with simpler music can pull it off. It is only when a teacher sees the playing that they will see awkward motions and various clues for sure. I am experienced in working on-line with teachers and have done so with more than one. The visual absolutely is an essential component. It can even be such a thing as a student sitting too low or too close to the piano. Some clues in their playing may give you an idea they are doing that, but you can only be sure of what is going on when you see them. It is already harder remotely through a camera, than live where you can walk around.

I think "all the questions rather than submitting things" is because people are not certain about taking part in this, and don't quite understand what it might end up involving.


1. Each teacher plays a role of a "medical doctor" for "sick music". Somebody wants to be a doctor-generalist, who knows everything about all diseases, when another doctor prefers to be just a cardiologist but he really knows this job. I agree that the generalist would prefer video to audio but experienced cardiologist will diagnose your heart problem much better with only his primitive stethoscope.

I have my selfish interest here. I need to test my way of remote, "from a distance" treatment of extremely popular " musical infection" that is usually unknown to the musicians, and especially to the music teachers. But it kills their and their students music unnoticed with an effectiveness of cancer. From my many decades long experience I know that this kind of treatment is recognized and appreciated only AFTER the "removal of malicious tumor". People become amazed with the happy change in their health: "How could I live with this terrible tumor before? Now I understood what tormented me all these years!" etc. I do notneed to see my students. Audio- is enough for this diagnose and treatment.

But how to lure a patient to the operatic table, if he/she does not believe even in the very existence of this disease and all the doctors around do not believe as well? This is ONLY a problem with my treatment that I did not solved completely yet.

2. I started such lessons already in a format:
video to me - my suggestions and corrections to my student - next video to me done according to my corrections - again my corrections etc... Only AFTER BOTH of us are HAPPY with the results, our exclusively victorious exchange of videos will become available for public like a "set", like "one lesson in a class" (or on stage) on some particular piece. Everyone interested in playing or teaching this piece can see all our steps and the results on this chain of videos.

If I did not get OBVIOUS results at EACH lesson, my student will definitely quit our lessons and I worked for nothing. Fortunately, it NEVER happened.

3. Josef Hoffman told that pianist should learn from MANY teachers, the more - the better.
I took and take lessons from everyone, who wants to teach me (a lot of volunteers always are there around us). Even broken clock point an absolutely correct time twice in each 24 hours. Why then I should not take a lesson from you?


Vladimir Dounin
Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2823614
03/07/19 05:30 AM
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Hi Vladimir

Now that you’ve explained some more (and I’ve Googled you!) I think I understand this a little better. My initial reaction and subsequent comments were railing against the idea that music tuition needs to be forced onto the internet just to meet the new expectations of wider society. But I see now this isn’t what it’s about.

I am more interested now. As someone who’s returning to serious and reasonably advanced playing after a long break, I don’t yet feel ready to share my efforts with anyone. But perhaps in time what you’re suggesting might be something I would consider. I’ll bookmark this thread. 😊

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/07/19 05:31 AM.

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Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2823617
03/07/19 05:41 AM
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Vladimir, your response to me isn't that satisfactory, in regard to visual. I am somewhat familiar with what you teach because I paid attention to some of your videos from a while back on PS and also the recent thread here and there on Fuer Elise. Your new thread involves correct notes (the D vs. E etc.) and also timing as well as articulation. I think the previous one one also had details of dynamics between notes and voices. Understanding and hearing are not enough. One must be physically capable of producing these things, and the clue as to why a student cannot produce them may well lie in physical things that can be seen. Audio is not enough if the cause for uneven notes (timing) or harsh sounds is due to what a student is doing physically.

Quote
But how to lure a patient to the operatic table, if he/she does not believe even in the very existence of this disease and all the doctors around do not believe as well? This is ONLY a problem with my treatment that I did not solved completely yet.


You could try not talking in riddles.

If there is a specific thing that you are after, tell the teachers here what it is, and then you will get interest from those who want to know abut that particular thing. Since these are teachers, including very competent and experienced ones, you might also get their ideas, which you might actually value.

Since I'm writing mainly as a student, I will yield the floor to the teachers here.

Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: keystring] #2823623
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Similarly I’m not talking as a teacher, but I’m thinking that Vladimir is mostly aiming this at advanced students who mostly already know the “how” and could use assistance or alternative ideas for interpretation? I could be wrong of course, and the physical aspect of this is what led me to initially disagree strongly with the whole concept. I still do in that respect, although perhaps these days teachers are not allowed to make physical contact with their students anyhow?

I didn’t actually realise this was Vladimir of the Für Elise thread though.


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Re: Let us learn to work on the Internet [Re: Vladimir Dounin] #2823652
03/07/19 07:44 AM
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Just to say that I have got friendly and interesting feedback from Vladimir on the video that I sent him (of myself playing). Now I have some new technique to practise in my piece.


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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