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VST dropouts #2823104
03/05/19 12:51 PM
03/05/19 12:51 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,502
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline OP
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I run VST pianos under Kontakt on a Windows 10 box. This is a high-end box and it ran for over a year with low latency and no dropouts. But lately it's been misbehaving.

After I load up pianos in Kontakt, any piano will play just fine. But after about 15 minutes I start getting clicks and pops.

If I close the pianos and reload them all is well again. (No need to shutdown Kontakt and restart it.)

I don't know what to do about this.

Notes:
1. This started long after the 1803 update last year, but before the recent 1809 update (which I got about a week ago).
2. I have a Presonus Audiobox USB interface. I have the latest "Universal Control" driver software from Presonus.
3. This box runs an i7--7700K CPU, 16 GB RAM, and 512 GB SSD. There's no resource shortage here.
4. The pianos are installed on the SSD.

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Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823115
03/05/19 01:15 PM
03/05/19 01:15 PM
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No resource shortage Mac. Irritating to have good system suddenly get crackling. I don't think there are a lot of audio tweaks to do on Win10 these days, unfortunately.

What are your sample size and buffer settings? Try some different options as with that CPU you might have better luck oversampling to say 88.1k and higher, with a corresponding increase in buffer. Did you consider trying an older Presonus driver?

Some ideas you already know but a reminder.

0. Run latencymon to see if any DPC latency issues pop up. Do this with nothing else running for a few minutes.

1. Turn off c-states and SpeedStep and SpeedShift in BIOS.

2. You can look for any CPU throttling in HWiNFO64.

3. Windows Power Options on "High Performance" (I don't see "Ultimate Performance" advantages on the audio engineering forums so any changes may not be useful).

4. Turn off all wireless.

5. Turn off Defender (you need to do that in group policy not just the easy button in Win10 settings)

6. nVidia GPU drivers are a real problem with DPC latency. I use DDU to fully remove those but that might not be an option for you. And the nVidia drivers seem to find there way back on my system over time.

7. Consider doing a clean install of Win 10. The updates are really sloppy.

8. The Garritan CFX has a big memory leak so whole system can go through 16GB of ram pretty quickly. Check memory usage to make sure you don't have that issue (I know you don't have Garritan CFX).

Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823132
03/05/19 02:16 PM
03/05/19 02:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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I’ve had the same experience with Windows. The culprit was auto-update and defender. But ultimately it was a frustrating experience and I gave away that laptop to my mom. It was my last Windows PC and I was happy to let it go.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823147
03/05/19 03:00 PM
03/05/19 03:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 367
Germany
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Tyr Offline
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I only have issues with Garritan CFX. Depending on the precache size there are dropouts and cracking sounds. Pianoteq runs fine for hours.


Current: Yamaha NU1X | Roland FP-30 with Garritan CFX Full & Pianoteq 6
Past: Yamaha: P-115, YDP-163, CLP-545, CLP-685 | Kawai: CA-98, Novus NV10
Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823185
03/06/19 01:05 AM
03/06/19 01:05 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,502
Raleigh, North Carolina
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.
Instructions from newer player in his post above ...

0. Run latencymon to see if any DPC latency issues pop up. Do this with nothing else running for a few minutes.
--> Here are the results in a screenshot. Initially GOOD. Later BAD. But the GOOD soon returns. And there's no crackling during any of this.
[Linked Image]

1. Turn off c-states and SpeedStep and SpeedShift in BIOS.
--> I don't know what these are.

2. You can look for any CPU throttling in HWiNFO64.
--> I ran HWiNFO64 but I have no idea what to look for. Please advise.

3. Windows Power Options on "High Performance" (I don't see "Ultimate Performance" advantages on the audio engineering forums so any changes may not be useful).
--> I'm already set to High Performance.

4. Turn off all wireless.
--> It's always turned off. This is a desktop. I'm wired.

5. Turn off Defender (you need to do that in group policy not just the easy button in Win10 settings)
--> It's getting late. I'll have to remember to try that tomorrow.

6. nVidia GPU drivers are a real problem with DPC latency. I use DDU to fully remove those but that might not be an option for you. And the nVidia drivers seem to find there way back on my system over time.
--> You can see the Nvidia driver popping up as an issue. But it goes away, and there are no crackles before or after.
--> The crackles appear independently of the Nvidia warning in Latency Mon.


7. Consider doing a clean install of Win 10. The updates are really sloppy.
--> That's too much ... until all other avenues have been exhausted.

8. The Garritan CFX has a big memory leak so whole system can go through 16GB of RAM.
--> I don't have that piano.

I must emphasize that the crackles appear after "a while".
But if I delete the loaded pianos from Kontakt and then reload them, the crackles disappear.

Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823192
03/06/19 02:13 AM
03/06/19 02:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2016
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Intel has a variety of power savings schemes that also reduce heat. Unfortunately getting cores to periodically wake up on demand can cause audio latency issues. So disable c-states, speedstep, speedshift in BIOS. Typically you can enter BIOS by pressing f2 several times when you turn on the computer but you need to find out exact method on your desktop else you run into some issues. This is typically the #1 fix for audio latency issues for pro engineers. So try first.

Run latencyMon for a while with nothing else opened. HIt the red square to stop. Go to drivers tab and sort by Highest Execution column. Anything above say over 0.5ms gets to be a real issue. Just focus on the very worst offenders for now. So that is a start although you already see the graphics are causing issues. This guide helps a bit but if you can identify the processes causing issues that helps https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon_using

For wireless, also shut off bluetooth, networking...

For HWiNFO64, launch it click sensors only. Then run computer a while with piano. Look at the throttling rows in HWiNFO64 to make see if everything says NO. You might want to confirm your 7700K clocks are at say 4.2GHz base or higher for VI use; I think they should be steady for VI use.

Go to task manager (performance tab) and monitor use of memory to see if you are running low on memory over time via the graph. Your CPU utilization should be well below 50%.(entire time you are actually playing.)

Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823208
03/06/19 03:39 AM
03/06/19 03:39 AM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,841
Europe
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For my Thinkpad PC the battery is causing audio dropouts. Removing it solves the problem.

The cause is usually the firmware and the only proper fix is a firmware update. Playing around with power management settings or reinstalling the operating system usually does nothing.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: VST dropouts [Re: newer player] #2823236
03/06/19 06:57 AM
03/06/19 06:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,502
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline OP
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Thanks np. I'll try these things tonight ...
Originally Posted by newer player
- Getting cores to periodically wake up on demand can cause audio latency issues. So disable c-states, speedstep, speedshift in BIOS.

- Run latencyMon ... go to drivers tab and sort by Highest Execution. Anything above say over 0.5ms gets to be a real issue.
This guide helps a bit https://www.resplendence.com/latencymon_using

- For HWiNFO64, launch it click sensors only. ... Look at the throttling rows in HWiNFO64 to make see if everything says NO.

Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823355
03/06/19 01:34 PM
03/06/19 01:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 124
similar Offline
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Thanks newerplayer for the great cheat sheet! Will have to bookmark for when my windows comp inevitably starts misbehaving.

Though I'd perhaps rather just wipe and reinstall windows 10 then do all the fussing, since my computer also ran (currently runs) just fine after fresh install. I find a total wipe helps with all sorts of computer issues associated with being used for too long.


Beethoven, Bach -> Kawai CA-97 -> Garritan CFX Full -> Neumann Klein and Hummel 310s
Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823374
03/06/19 03:02 PM
03/06/19 03:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,169
UK
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I've sometimes been getting a similar thing, fortunately after more like several hours than a few minutes, but I attributed it to the fact that I've ditched the desktop PC, and am running entirely from a ThinkPad. It works well most of the time, and if it doesn't, I can reload the VSTs and it works fine.

I have recently started using Cantabile Lite (which is free), which allows you to load up as many VSTs as you want. I have them assigned to different MIDI channels, so all I have to do to switch between CFX, Vintage D, Pianoteq etc., is to change the MIDI output channel on the piano (which for me, once I've navigated to the appropriate menu option, is just hitting the left or right buttons). Anyway, Cantabile has a big green power button in the top right, which I can use to "power cycle" pretty much instantly (the actual VSTs don't have to be reloaded), and that solves any clicks.

It may not get to the root of the problem, but it might give sufficient respite, so I recommend giving Cantabile a try.


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823478
03/06/19 07:56 PM
03/06/19 07:56 PM
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From the initial description, I think one possibility is that that what is happening is some maintenance operation which starts roughly 15 minutes after no keyboard or mouse input is received (so Windows thinks there is no user present). You see that quite often on some Windows installations. In that case, reloading the piano has the effect of alerting Windows to the presence of the user and temporarily halting whatever was causing the problems. You can easily test that by simply loading some other program (e.g. a web browser) instead at that time, and see whether the pianos nevertheless start to behave.

A second possibility is that after a period of time, Windows is swapping out memory to a page file on the disk, which will cause a big performance hit even on an SSD. That would be slightly eccentric, but Windows memory management is a bit strange and it will use the swap file if present, even if a large portion of the 16GB RAM is unused. You can easily test/fix that by temporarily eliminating the page file (through settings, taking manual control of it; don't just delete the file).

Last comment: the two things that will cause crackles and pops etc. are either CPU overload or a disk queue. If you turn on the Windows Resource Monitor in the background before loading up the piano, you should easily be able to tell which, and even get an indication of what is causing it.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823485
03/06/19 08:08 PM
03/06/19 08:08 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,221
Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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As I said: auto-update and Defender are the offenders. On my Windows 10 Home edition I couldn’t stop the Defender through policies since there are no policies on Home edition, that’s for Pro. So I had to edit the registry instead. And auto-updates can’t be disabled at all if I remember correctly. The best you can do is to set the connection as metered but that would stop only non-important updates from downloading. If it decides there are critical updates it will download even if that would cost you hundreds for traffic. What can I say smile I’m repeating myself....


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: VST dropouts [Re: CyberGene] #2823487
03/06/19 08:16 PM
03/06/19 08:16 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 7,212
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
As I said: auto-update and Defender are the offenders. On my Windows 10 Home edition I couldn’t stop the Defender through policies since there are no policies on Home edition, that’s for Pro. So I had to edit the registry instead. And auto-updates can’t be disabled at all if I remember correctly. The best you can do is to set the connection as metered but that would stop only non-important updates from downloading. If it decides there are critical updates it will download even if that would cost you hundreds for traffic. What can I say smile I’m repeating myself....

In Windows 10, there are ways to stop Windows Updates. I've done this for my piano computer running a VST.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823490
03/06/19 08:22 PM
03/06/19 08:22 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
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Sofia, Bulgaria
CyberGene Offline
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These are instructions for Pro as described. If you have the bad luck of having your laptop coming with Home instead, good luck stopping auto-updates. I have given up after an hour of reading the Internet. That was an year ago though. Someone might have hacked it already.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823491
03/06/19 08:25 PM
03/06/19 08:25 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,502
Raleigh, North Carolina
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I'm not worried about updates. They're not frequent.
Meanwhile my problem is frequent. Every time I start Kontakt all is well for a while, then there's a problem.
Then I restart Kontakt and all is well. That's not a symptom of Windows update.

(a) Latency Mon has not revealed problems ... just an intermittent high-load that doesn't seem to affect things.

(b) As for Defender ...
Windows Defender Antivirus Network Inspection Service (NisSrv.exe) is set to Manual, and it's not running.
Windows Defender Antivirus Service (ms\MsMpEng.exe) is set to Manual, and it's not running.
Windows Defender Firewall (svchost.exe -k LocalServiceNoNetworkFirewall -p) is probably running. Maybe I should stop it?

(c) I still have to look at Hwinfo64 and the BIOS items (c-states and SpeedStep and SpeedShift).

I'm too tired for all of that now. I'll wait for the weekend I guess.

Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823518
03/06/19 09:57 PM
03/06/19 09:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 5,076
Richmond, BC, Canada
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Charles Cohen Online content
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I suspect a lot of this trouble would disappear if the computer were disconnected from the Internet. Even Windows Update should be smart enough to know, then, that there's no work to do.

For a WiFi connection, the easiest and surest thing to do is to _disable_ the WiFi Adapter. I've found that works for Pianoteq, in combination with disabling all the "power management" features.

I think "remove the battery from the laptop" is a very neat idea. With no battery, there's no "power management", I think.


. Charles
---------------------------
PX-350 / microKorg XL+ / Pianoteq / Lounge Lizard / Korg Wavedrum / EV ZXA1 speaker
Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823524
03/06/19 10:39 PM
03/06/19 10:39 PM
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sullivang Offline
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It could still be maintenance tasks. Windows may detect the flurry of activity when Kontakt starts, and decide that the system is busy, and so pauses the tasks. Once Kontakt has settled down, there may not be sufficient activity to reach the "busy" threshold. The fact that Kontakt caches samples as you play, for example, would reduce disk activity. I once had a long running .NET CLR rebuild (triggered by an update) that caused problems.

Greg

Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2823662
03/07/19 08:03 AM
03/07/19 08:03 AM
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This is why we need VSTs on the Xbox One!


Kawai CA95 / Steinberg UR22 / Sony MDR-7506 / Pianoteq Stage + Grotrian / Galaxy Vintage D / CFX Lite
In the loft: Roland FP3 / Tannoy Reveal Active / K&M 18810
Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2826853
03/14/19 05:37 PM
03/14/19 05:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,502
Raleigh, North Carolina
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I went looking into the BIOS for C-States and Speedstep and Speedshift, as suggested by newer player. Since I can't take a screenshot to show you what's there, I searched online and found the description of the BIOS settings at https://www.dell.com/support/manual...65-4b3b-842a-78c25e3f9364&lang=en-us

This subsection is the only one containing any of newer player's aforementioned items ...
Advanced BIOS Features
. Intel SpeedStep Technology. . . . . Enable/disable Intel Speedstep Technology. Default: Enabled
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . If enabled, processor clock speed and core voltage are adjusted based on load.
. Intel Virtualization Technology . . Enable/disable Intel Virtualization Technology feature for the processor.
. VT for Direct I/O . . . . . . . . . Enable/disable Intel Virtualization Technology feature for the Direct I/O.
. SATA Operation. . . . . . . . . . . Configure the operating mode of the integrated SATA hard drive controller.
. Intel Ready Mode Technology . . . . Enable/disable the Intel Ready Mode Technology.
. Intel Software Guard Extensions . . Enable/disable Intel Software Guard Extensions.
. BIOS Recovery from Hard Drive . . . Enable/disable BIOS Recovery from hard drive.


That first one ... Intel SpeedStep Technology. I turned that off and rebooted.
No change. I still get crackles after a while.
Reloading the VSTs in Kontakt eliminates the crackles ... for a while.
Note that I don't need to restart Kontakt. I just reload the pianos.

Re: VST dropouts [Re: MacMacMac] #2826864
03/14/19 05:59 PM
03/14/19 05:59 PM
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Just a thought, could be due to patches for Spectre and Meltdown? Those are supposed to impact I/O.

Once I got my VST working well, I turned off all connectivity on the computer just so I wouldn't have to deal with an errant update wreaking havoc on a setup I spent a lot of time getting right.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
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