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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: CyberGene] #2823090 03/05/19 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene

It was me. That’s a useful picture somehow answering my question. Thanks!

That picture is showing your future N1X. Hopefully it doesn't drop off the forklift. wink


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2823199 03/06/19 01:36 AM
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Hello CyberGene,

Originally Posted by CyberGene
I had some grocery duties nearby the Kawai shop and went by. It confirmed my impression that I don’t like the Piano Rendering engine. It’s not bad but somehow doesn’t appeal to me the way CFX does. Maybe it’s different on a NV10, I don’t know.


No, through headphones (assuming this is how you listened to the CA78), all instruments that feature "Pianist mode" will sound the same. The instruments will obviously sound different through speakers.

May I ask if you can explain what you didn't like about the "Pianist mode" sound?

Kind regards,
James
x

ps. Congrats on the NU1X --> N1X upgrade!


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2823200 03/06/19 01:56 AM
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James, I brought my HD-650s to test but since I was in a hurry and we were chatting with the owner, I didn’t use them. It was a CA78 and I executed a factory reset first.

It’s hard to describe with words why I like CFX more but the main reason is in both Yamaha’s own CFX and Garritan CFX there’s distinct clarity to every note. A ringing quality to every note that makes it bright but not “pop grand piano” bright. It’s a very specific timbre across the entire keyboard with a bright attack and dark overtones, so to speak. In contrast to that in Kawai there’s some overall lack of clarity, in particular the tenor-bass range where chords easily become a “wall of sound” which is hard to distinguish as separate tones. Maybe it had something to do with the speaker system of CA78 and my preference for less boomy sound which I have always expressed. On top of that the middle region seemed to be softer and withdrawn whereas the top octaves were piercing and “in your face”. As I said, that’s not probably bad per se and the actual SK-EX could be like that too. But I find CFX samples to be generally more balanced across the entire range and with better clarity.


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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2823203 03/06/19 02:19 AM
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Thank you for your honest reply!

James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: CyberGene] #2823221 03/06/19 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
James, I brought my HD-650s to test but since I was in a hurry and we were chatting with the owner, I didn’t use them. It was a CA78 and I executed a factory reset first.

It’s hard to describe with words why I like CFX more but the main reason is in both Yamaha’s own CFX and Garritan CFX there’s distinct clarity to every note. A ringing quality to every note that makes it bright but not “pop grand piano” bright. It’s a very specific timbre across the entire keyboard with a bright attack and dark overtones, so to speak. In contrast to that in Kawai there’s some overall lack of clarity, in particular the tenor-bass range where chords easily become a “wall of sound” which is hard to distinguish as separate tones. Maybe it had something to do with the speaker system of CA78 and my preference for less boomy sound which I have always expressed. On top of that the middle region seemed to be softer and withdrawn whereas the top octaves were piercing and “in your face”. As I said, that’s not probably bad per se and the actual SK-EX could be like that too. But I find CFX samples to be generally more balanced across the entire range and with better clarity.

I was in my dealer last Friday and he sold a KDP110 which was next to a CA78. Chatting with him afterwards he asked me for my reaction to the CA78 as he seemed to be reacting to it in the same way as CyberGene. He's a very sensitive soul and I don't think he is ever going to sell the NU1X because he worries about the loud note issue despite me telling him how many people live with it.


Roland LX7

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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: CyberGene] #2823235 03/06/19 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
My NU1X refund was approved and appeared in my Thomann account. I had some grocery duties nearby the Kawai shop and went by. It confirmed my impression that I don’t like the Piano Rendering engine. It’s not bad but somehow doesn’t appeal to me the way CFX does. Maybe it’s different on a NV10, I don’t know. But I went home and placed an order for a N1X. If all goes well should be in stock on March 21 and then in 7-8 working days delivered to me.


Nice! I went the opposite route. I bought a used Roland FP-30 with the original stand for my study room because my wife is freaking out about the knocking sounds hybrid instruments make when she wants to sleep. Since then, i didn't touched the NU1X because the Roland + Pianoteq is such a nice combo. laugh


Kawai Novus NV5
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2823274 03/06/19 08:49 AM
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I have just got back from a trip to Bonner's Music (Reigate branch) which is not far down the road for me.

For those of you not aware of my previous posts, I currently have a Kawai CA67, and I get to play about monthly on my fathers Knight upright acoustic bought when I was 5 which is now at my daughters house. There is something tactile about playing the acoustic which I was not getting from my CA67. I also find the speaker sound on the CA67 "tinny" (although through the headphones the sound is perfect). In order to ensure I avoid the syndrome which has happened throughout my life so far of being enthused with a hobby only for it to fade away at the two year boundary I have planned a major upgrade to (possibly) an acoustic baby grand after I reach the 3 year mark of restarting piano. That is in about 18 months time. I have played the Novus 10 and some acoustic grands before (all at Bonners). I did post a review then and indicated to me that the Novus 10 had been the only digital which had given me the tactile feel I was after.

So - as luck would have it - Bonners have re-organised their showroom at Reigate (more of a warehouse than an shop and its on a small industrial estate) so that there is a small room holding the Yamaha N1X (offered at £6999) and the Novus 10 (offered at £7799) both sitting with their backs to a (different) wall. Because there was work going on out in the main warehouse area I was shown into this small room and left to play with the door shut. I spent about 30 minutes alternating back and forth between the N1X and the NV10 playing without headphones. I did get a chance to play a Furich Grand afterwards for another 10 minutes. This was selected for me because I ask to try a Furich and of the several they had this one had just been regulated.

N1X action

The difference between the N1X hybrid action and the GF2 action in my Kawai was massive. The N1X gave me all the tactile feedback I wanted. In particular as you press the key down you feel like you are pushing against hammer weight and with an escapement. Compared to it the GF2 action feels sluggish. Fast trills were so much easier on the N1X. One thing I did notice though was that black keys felt very narrow and it took me 2 or 3 minutes to get used to it and for my aim on big jumps to be perfect (One of the pieces I was playing was a Chopin Nocturne with big left hand jumps all the way through).

NV10 action

The NV10 felt almost the same as the N1X and I couldn't tell them them apart. The only real difference was the width of the black keys which were the same as my CA67 and so didn't have the issue of not being able to play the Chopin immediately I sat down at it.

Furich (172 in) action

My immediate reaction when playing it was - this is the same as the N1X and NV10. The only difference was that it had even wider black keys

N1X sound

I was recommended by the showroom guy to try the sound No4 (which he said was a Bosendorfer Grand). I was quite surprised at how minimal the display is - pretty well a number of 7 segment display digits - so very limited information. My CA67 has a lot more information. Of course I could load the Smart Pianist App on my phone and have a full gui so I don't think its really an issue

The Bosendorfer sound had a lovely clear tone and I liked it very much. There was none of the "tinny" sound that I have from my CA67. I also switched to the Yamaha CFX sound. Definitely a brighter piano, but again it had a "clear pure" tone to it which I liked. I didn't actually find or touch the volume control but sitting at the bench it had the same sort of volume as the Furich.

I understand a bit about what CyberGene is saying about the clarity in the lower notes compared to the NV10 - but at the same time the NV10 does allow you to feel those lower notes through your body. The N1X didn't give me this.

NV10 Sound

I didn't really look at what the NV10 was set up as - it was definitely in Pianist Mode with the SK-EX piano setting. Again a lovely, but different, tone. As I just mentioned above this does allow me to feel the lower notes through my body - no doubt because of the woofer down by the pedals which the N1X doesn't have.

Bottom Line

I am pretty confident now that when the time does come to upgrade that apart from the prestige of actually having an acoustic grand in the home - that I can obtain a hybrid digital which is a good substitute and which my wife will accept (she is pretty anti an acoustic piano because it would disturb her). Whether it will be the N1X or the NV10 I haven't really decided and its too early to do so anyway. I think either are good candidates. For me the key differences are:-

Currently £800 (Bonners Prices) difference
Black Key Width
Feeling the Sound in the Lower Register

Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: CyberGene] #2823283 03/06/19 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
But I went home and placed an order for a N1X. If all goes well should be in stock on March 21 and then in 7-8 working days delivered to me.


For just a bit more (well, almost twice as much) you could have had a newly restored Bösendorfer 170; available in Sofia, Bulgaria now apparently:

https://www.klaviano.com/pianos-for-sale/bosendorfer/170/bosendorfer-170-409888.html

Of course, the Bösendorfer silent systems from 1943 were not up to current standards.


Roland FP-30, Roland E-28
Pianoteq 6.5 (Bechstein DG, Grotrian, Steinway D, K2), Garritan CFX Lite, Production Voices Estate Grand
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2823284 03/06/19 09:25 AM
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akc42, thanks, it's very nice to read about first hand experiences from forum members rather than the regular marketing/salesman videos on YouTube. I am glad you find NV10, N1X and a real grand similar in regards to touch because that's the only concern I had when choosing one or the other hybrid (sight unseen). In regards to bass presence, I realize it's a matter of personal taste and this again confirms that what I didn't like in the CA78's sound is probably just a trait (not a defect) that's also present in NV10 to some degree and so I would be better off with N1X's cleaner and not so powerful bass.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: QuasiUnaFantasia] #2823286 03/06/19 09:28 AM
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CyberGene Online Content
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
Originally Posted by CyberGene
But I went home and placed an order for a N1X. If all goes well should be in stock on March 21 and then in 7-8 working days delivered to me.


For just a bit more (well, almost twice as much) you could have had a newly restored Bösendorfer 170; available in Sofia, Bulgaria now apparently:

https://www.klaviano.com/pianos-for-sale/bosendorfer/170/bosendorfer-170-409888.html

Of course, the Bösendorfer silent systems from 1943 were not up to current standards.


Absolutely no way this will fit in our tiny flat laugh Even the N1X is slightly thicker in depth than what's ideal for a small living room...


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: QuasiUnaFantasia] #2823288 03/06/19 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by QuasiUnaFantasia
For just a bit more (well, almost twice as much) you could have had a newly restored Bösendorfer 170; available in Sofia, Bulgaria now apparently:

https://www.klaviano.com/pianos-for-sale/bosendorfer/170/bosendorfer-170-409888.html

Seriously: Who puts a grand with a closed lid on sale online? Only someone who has something to hide behind it.

Every time one wants to purchase an expensive digital piano, someone turns up with those "good deals" on used pianos.

Whatever got "newly restored" there, it wasn't the piano itself. Just looking at the dampers I can already tell, that it is a pile of crap.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: CyberGene] #2823312 03/06/19 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
akc42, unseen)
I realize it's a matter of personal taste and this again confirms that what I didn't like in the CA78's sound is probably just a trait (not a defect) that's also present in NV10 to some degree and so I would be better off with N1X's cleaner and not so powerful bass.


And a really nice VST to make up the price shortfall!


"I am not a man. I am a free number"

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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: CyberGene] #2823334 03/06/19 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
I realize it's a matter of personal taste and this again confirms that what I didn't like in the CA78's sound is probably just a trait (not a defect) that's also present in NV10 to some degree and so I would be better off with N1X's cleaner and not so powerful bass.


I find the bass is not so overbearing on headphones, it sounds more balanced. The influence of the resonance model implementation aside, the poor speaker placement underneath, near corners under the cabinet really does make it boomy, that doesn't help, the louder you set it the worse it gets. To me subjectively, in my room it suffers a bit to much from the bath tub EQ, I also have it on a hard wooden floor, but the resonance with the cabinet at higher volumes makes it worse, there are various EQ settings you can apply in VT.

I found the Novus significantly more behaved sounding in the bass where it was in an open space where I tried it, but the lower speakers are not sitting in a corner under the cabinet, instead projecting forward and no corners blocking it to the side. IMO, it much better design than the CA78 and it sounds much better/cleaner as a result.

Yamaha, with what they call acoustic optimiser, I believe is just applying some sort of EQ scheme with increasing volume too, like Fletcher Munson Curves, I am just speculating that is what it does, but it helps with consistency to how we perceive tonal balance at different volumes, which the kawai lacks ( I think).

In any case, for me the CA78 sounds a lot better over the headphones then it does over the build in speakers.

I am glad you said about the piercing qualities. I have said it several times, clearly, I am not alone.

I like the Bosendorfer sound in the yamahas a lot, even if it is not as advanced with some of the features the CFX has. To me it doesn't nearly sound as convincing in timbre as the massive VSL imperial, but I simply like the sound of it, and nice bit of body to the tone too. I find the kawai lacks a little bit too in the middle of the keyboard in that respect. There again, I like pianos with a good old fat woody tone, but not metallic and thin.

edit: and congrats on your N1X.

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 03/06/19 11:51 AM.

Selftaught since June 2014.
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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2823842 03/07/19 03:02 PM
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It’s Wednesday, did you get them tarps? grin

Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Pete14] #2823901 03/07/19 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Pete14
It’s Wednesday, did you get them tarps? grin


I just got home with it a few minutes ago. I unloaded it from the truck (both boxes with my wife's help) and now I'm going to eat some lunch and then get to work setting it up.

God Bless,
David

Last edited by David B; 03/07/19 04:43 PM.

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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2823905 03/07/19 04:48 PM
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David, post some pictures if you can. Then you can start a new post “Hands on - N1x”. wink


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Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2823910 03/07/19 04:58 PM
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Let us now if this thing can be assembled by only you and your wife wink I think I might be doing the same but my wife is so tiny I am afraid each of the packages alone weighs more than her laugh


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2823914 03/07/19 05:04 PM
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The main unit of the NV10 is round about 100kg. The N1X main unit won't be much less. wink


Kawai Novus NV5
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2823921 03/07/19 05:13 PM
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The entire piano is listed as a little bit more than 100kg so I thought the two parts should be half but indeed the lower part is probably just a tiny fraction of the entire weight. Seems like I will have to ask for help. I’m not sure that even two men will easily lift a 100kg piano with only hands and no ropes or something else.


My YouTube, My Soundcloud
Currently: Yamaha N1X, DIY hybrid controller -> Garritan CFX
Previously: NU1X, ES7, MP6, CA63, RD-700SX, CDP-100, FP-5, P90, SP-200
Re: Yamaha N1X released at NAMM [Re: CyberGene] #2823936 03/07/19 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by CyberGene
The entire piano is listed as a little bit more than 100kg so I thought the two parts should be half but indeed the lower part is probably just a tiny fraction of the entire weight. Seems like I will have to ask for help. I’m not sure that even two men will easily lift a 100kg piano with only hands and no ropes or something else.


I've had piano movers in to set up and move my NV10 a few times. It takes two really burly guys working VERY carefully, and step by step (4 steps, set down, breathe, repeat) to slowly move it into place (they didn't use a dolly or anything, they just heaved it).

It's a little easier starting from the shipping boxes, but each was still a lot of weight.

I recall in the NV10 thread there was one guy who completely unboxed and set up his unit by himself. Which frankly scares me!


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
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