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Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: halherta] #2823172
03/05/19 04:48 PM
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Is Casio significantly worse than Yamaha when it comes to the whole pivot point thing? My understanding is that it is not, and yet I'm constantly seeing people bash Casio on the grounds of the pivot, but rarely bring it up with Yamaha. Please correct my ignorance! laugh


Decent upright bassist, aspiring decent pianist
Casio PX-160, Casio CDP-130
Roland KC-80
Pianoteq 6 Stage (used with Pearl MalletStation)
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Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: TheophilusCarter] #2823177
03/05/19 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
Is Casio significantly worse than Yamaha when it comes to the whole pivot point thing? My understanding is that it is not, and yet I'm constantly seeing people bash Casio on the grounds of the pivot, but rarely bring it up with Yamaha. Please correct my ignorance! laugh


Actually, Casio's existing tri-sensor scaled hammer action has a longer pivot and is easier to play into the keys than Yamaha's GHS action. Casio's major disadvantage is that it's a bit "loose" and very quickly becomes loud/clacky with use. Since Casio's newer action is significantly shorter than the existing one, the question for me is how they can preserve (or improve on) the pivot behavior of the existing action.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: halherta] #2823191
03/06/19 02:05 AM
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Just for kicks (and to avoid having to play music) I just measured the front & rear key dip of my P-515 & PX-330:
P-515: 10mm, 3.5mm
PX-330: 10mm, 2mm

Greg

Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: sullivang] #2823207
03/06/19 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
Just for kicks (and to avoid having to play music) I just measured the front & rear key dip of my P-515 & PX-330:
P-515: 10mm, 3.5mm
PX-330: 10mm, 2mm

ES100 according to http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2167459

Quote
Key dip: Front 12mm, Rear 4.35mm


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: halherta] #2823285
03/06/19 10:28 AM
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I wouldn't consider the PX-330 a good indicator of the current actions. Casio has been changing (evolving?) their actions from model to model. If you were to start with the PX-310 and check each model (310,320,330,350,360) each has a different feel. I have owned the 310 & the 330. I personally believe the 310 was the better action of these two. Unlike Yamaha who really hasn't changed anything in the GHS action in 10 years nearest I can tell, Casio has been making incremental changes to their key actions.
I wouldn't fret about the actions in these boards until you actually play one. Since they aren't shipping yet, everything is pure speculation.


A long long time ago, I can still remember
How that music used to make me smile....
Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: Kbeaumont] #2823289
03/06/19 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Kbeaumont

I wouldn't fret about the actions in these boards until you actually play one. Since they aren't shipping yet, everything is pure speculation.


That's the problem when an announced product takes months to make it to the consumer...speculation galore...still, enjoy it whilst it lasts because when those boards do make it to town it will either be full of praise or b*tch*ng about this and that..and then we get to enjoy that too!

Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: halherta] #2823294
03/06/19 11:01 AM
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Yes, and I thought it has already been established that the fulcrum of the keys extends into the chassis of the keyboard so that the keys are actually longer than they look. Am I wrong about this?


Roland FP-90; Pianoteq 6 + many add-ons; 2 Yamaha HS8s; ATH-M50X and Samson SR850 headphones; Xenyx Q802USB interface. 2; I make a living playing a Yamaha PSR-S970 with FBT Maxx 2a's, Crowne Headset Mic. I also play guitar.
Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: Beakybird] #2823295
03/06/19 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Beakybird
Yes, and I thought it has already been established that the fulcrum of the keys extends into the chassis of the keyboard so that the keys are actually longer than they look. Am I wrong about this?

There is no "chassis" to speak of in Casio's new models.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: Beakybird] #2823310
03/06/19 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Beakybird
Yes, and I thought it has already been established that the fulcrum of the keys extends into the chassis of the keyboard so that the keys are actually longer than they look. Am I wrong about this?


They do extend into the chassis to some degree (in that the pivot is not exactly at the point of the fallboard), but it really looks like the new Casio action has one of the shortest pivots ever in a hammer action....which is why there are a lot of questions about it, and how the claim of mechanical contrivances to make it easily playable into the keys is of great interest.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: sullivang] #2823382
03/06/19 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sullivang
Just for kicks (and to avoid having to play music) I just measured the front & rear key dip of my P-515 & PX-330:
P-515: 10mm, 3.5mm
PX-330: 10mm, 2mm

Greg


So, again pardoning my ignorance ... How do I interpret these numbers? The bigger the difference the shorter the pivot?


Decent upright bassist, aspiring decent pianist
Casio PX-160, Casio CDP-130
Roland KC-80
Pianoteq 6 Stage (used with Pearl MalletStation)
Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: TheophilusCarter] #2823389
03/06/19 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
Originally Posted by sullivang
Just for kicks (and to avoid having to play music) I just measured the front & rear key dip of my P-515 & PX-330:
P-515: 10mm, 3.5mm
PX-330: 10mm, 2mm

Greg


So, again pardoning my ignorance ... How do I interpret these numbers? The bigger the difference the shorter the pivot?

If the front key dip is the same, a larger rear key dip indicates a pivot point located further back and therefore a larger mechanical advantage. So, the P515 has a "longer" pivot point than the PX300. If the action mechanism and weight were exactly the same, then the effort needed to press a key on P515 close to the fallboard would be less than on the PX330 due to its larger mechanical advantage. Measuring the difference between the front and rear key dip is basically an indirect way to determine where the vertex of a triangle (representing the pivot point) is located.

Btw, this reasoning assumes that the actions use a "simple" lever mechanism. A more elaborate lever mechanism could be used to reduce the effort required even with a short pivot point - but afaik all DP actions out there use some sort of simple lever.

Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: arc7urus] #2823393
03/06/19 04:06 PM
03/06/19 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus

If the front key dip is the same, a larger rear key dip indicates a pivot point located further back and therefore a larger mechanical advantage. So, the P515 has a "longer" pivot point than the PX300. If the action mechanism and weight were exactly the same, then the effort needed to press a key on P515 close to the fallboard would be less than on the PX330 due to its larger mechanical advantage. Measuring the difference between the front and rear key dip is basically an indirect way to determine where the vertex of a triangle (representing the pivot point) is located.

Btw, this reasoning assumes that the actions use a "simple" lever mechanism. A more elaborate lever mechanism could be used to reduce the effort required even with a short pivot point - but afaik all DP actions out there use some sort of simple lever.


Awesome response, thank you for your help and your patience!

Oh, I just thought of something else. smile So, in order to make fair comparisons, you'd need to make sure the distance between the front and rear of the key were the same, yes? That the length of the exposed part of the key is the same? Otherwise, that's going to through your math off, yes? I'm guessing that's pretty standardized anyway, so probably not much of an issue?

Last edited by TheophilusCarter; 03/06/19 04:10 PM.

Decent upright bassist, aspiring decent pianist
Casio PX-160, Casio CDP-130
Roland KC-80
Pianoteq 6 Stage (used with Pearl MalletStation)
Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: TheophilusCarter] #2823394
03/06/19 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus


Btw, this reasoning assumes that the actions use a "simple" lever mechanism. A more elaborate lever mechanism could be used to reduce the effort required even with a short pivot point - but afaik all DP actions out there use some sort of simple lever.


Hence the interest in the PX-S1000. Casio has kind of, maybe, possible signaled that "mechanical changes" have been made to allow the keys to be easily played at the fallboard. Whether there's anything more complex than a single hinge/lever is yet to be seen!

Originally Posted by TheophilusCarter
, I just thought of something else. smile So, in order to make fair comparisons, you'd need to make sure the distance between the front and rear of the key were the same, yes?


Correct. Nowadays, the exposed key length is the largely standardized. But just a few decades ago, you'd find that some pianos had key lengths of a cm or more difference.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: Gombessa] #2823396
03/06/19 04:19 PM
03/06/19 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

Correct. Nowadays, the exposed key length is the largely standardized. But just a few decades ago, you'd find that some pianos had key lengths of a cm or more difference.

Excellent, thank you!


Decent upright bassist, aspiring decent pianist
Casio PX-160, Casio CDP-130
Roland KC-80
Pianoteq 6 Stage (used with Pearl MalletStation)
Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: halherta] #2823407
03/06/19 05:12 PM
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If these new Casios have a special mechanism I'll eat my own hat - it would be a world first and they'd be shouting it from the roof tops.

Greg.

Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: halherta] #2823559
03/07/19 01:19 AM
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Thank you for the input earlier about the S1000 vs FP-30 vs P125, vs ES110. Today I found my local piano store carries the ES110 and FP30, got a chance to play with them for a bit. I like the sound better on the ES110, but like the feel better on the FP30 (ES110 feels lighter, and have the key clicking noise when playing them, and without ivory).
Also found an FP140R in store, though its the same as FP30 just different look and style?
Man I don't know if I should pull the trigger on either the ES110, FP30, or FP140R.. or wait for little longer. (found FP30 with stand and 3 pedal for $780 USD, free ship and no tax, kinda tempting)
The video you guys shared kept me excited, and I feel like I would like to have a newer keyboard for the long run.

Last edited by gary93; 03/07/19 01:23 AM.
Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: gary93] #2823566
03/07/19 02:03 AM
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Originally Posted by gary93
Thank you for the input earlier about the S1000 vs FP-30 vs P125, vs ES110. Today I found my local piano store carries the ES110 and FP30, got a chance to play with them for a bit. I like the sound better on the ES110, but like the feel better on the FP30 (ES110 feels lighter, and have the key clicking noise when playing them, and without ivory).
Also found an FP140R in store, though its the same as FP30 just different look and style?
Man I don't know if I should pull the trigger on either the ES110, FP30, or FP140R.. or wait for little longer. (found FP30 with stand and 3 pedal for $780 USD, free ship and no tax, kinda tempting)
The video you guys shared kept me excited, and I feel like I would like to have a newer keyboard for the long run.

I have both an FP30 and an ES110 (wife uses it in our 2nd home) and I personally prefer the keyboard action of the FP30 and the sound of the ES110 too. But sound can be fixed. I myself just use a VST, Pianoteq, and consequently have sound that I like very much.


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Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: gary93] #2823577
03/07/19 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by gary93
Thank you for the input earlier about the S1000 vs FP-30 vs P125, vs ES110. Today I found my local piano store carries the ES110 and FP30, got a chance to play with them for a bit. I like the sound better on the ES110, but like the feel better on the FP30 (ES110 feels lighter, and have the key clicking noise when playing them, and without ivory).
Also found an FP140R in store, though its the same as FP30 just different look and style?
Man I don't know if I should pull the trigger on either the ES110, FP30, or FP140R.. or wait for little longer.

Go with the sound you like more. Those are all cheap actions, you will get used to one.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: JoeT] #2823611
03/07/19 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by gary93
Thank you for the input earlier about the S1000 vs FP-30 vs P125, vs ES110. Today I found my local piano store carries the ES110 and FP30, got a chance to play with them for a bit. I like the sound better on the ES110, but like the feel better on the FP30 (ES110 feels lighter, and have the key clicking noise when playing them, and without ivory).
Also found an FP140R in store, though its the same as FP30 just different look and style?
Man I don't know if I should pull the trigger on either the ES110, FP30, or FP140R.. or wait for little longer.

Go with the sound you like more. Those are all cheap actions, you will get used to one.


I would say go with the action you like more, thus showing that we're all different! smile

It's great that you had a chance to play so many of your potential choices in the shop.

Re: Casio PRIVIA PX-S1000 and PX-S3000 [Re: RosemaryGirl] #2823636
03/07/19 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by RosemaryGirl
I would say go with the action you like more, thus showing that we're all different! smile

Which action you like more might change over time. OTOH you won't suddenly start to like a tin-can sound.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
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