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Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences #2822648
03/04/19 08:39 AM
03/04/19 08:39 AM
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RyanThePianist Offline OP
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Hi all,

In an effort to keep this forum busy...

How do other teachers introduce these basic techniques? Do you prefer the pages from Hanon? Alfred's Scales, Arps, Chords, and Cadence book? I personally find that many of these compilations sheets are better at scaring students than introducing them, as they often include scales in 3rds, 6ths, contrary, etc., and I can understand why students may find it a bit of a long haul visually on the page to learn them all.

How about scale diagrams with fingerings on them for students who don't read well yet? Do you make your own simplified and step-by-step sheets? Do you teach soley by memory and repetition after a solid foundation in theory?

When do you introduce the first scales and arpeggios? After a couple of pentascales? Do you go along with the method books? Do you have your own method?

When I learned these, I already understood the order of sharps, flats and key signatures from my teachers giving me various pieces in different keys. I eventually noticed the patterns. I'd go out of my way to use Hanon book to look at suggested fingerings for the beginning of each scale and arpeggio, wrote them down and memorized them, and most fingerings came intuitively and naturally to me from there. For contrary motion, 3rds, etc, I would just learn them without sheets since I knew regular scales well. Chords, to be honest, I don't remember how I learned them as I feel like there was a point in time where I played so many chords in my music that I knew what major and minor 3rds felt like to build major and minor chords. After this, I would practice a chord a day in every inversion, including 7th chords. I know students don't learn like I do having come from different backgrounds.

Thank you.

Last edited by RyanThePianist; 03/04/19 08:42 AM.

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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2822650
03/04/19 08:48 AM
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DISCLAIMER - I AM NOT A TEACHER 😉

Quote
Do you teach solely by memory and repetition after a solid foundation in theory?


This is how I was taught IIRC. I had one ABRSM scale book but I’m sure that was mostly for reference - what to learn for what exam - rather than instruction.

It can’t have been a bad method for me because all those scales & arpeggios are firmly embedded in my memory and muscle memory decades later.


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2822672
03/04/19 10:28 AM
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I never have a teacher explain these.

I ended up in charge of a praise and worship band. No written out sheet music, at best a lead sheet but often just chord symbols and the text.

What the heck is a D2? Or a C/G?

So each week I looked up whatever was going to be played the next week and came to rehearsal prepared to explain it to the guitar players and cover it on the piano.


gotta go practice
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2822680
03/04/19 10:54 AM
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My son was introduced to the Bastien Scales, Chords, and Arpeggios when he started with Faber Book 2. He was participating in Piano Guild that year so she started him with the scales that he needed to know for his pieces that year (Probably Group 1).


Yamaha G2
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2822701
03/04/19 12:08 PM
03/04/19 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RyanThePianist
How do other teachers introduce these basic techniques?

I am not a teacher but Ilinca Vartic is, and she has a separate Scale course, that students can start after at least half a year of practice. In this course, she takes it very gradually, starting with the explanation of WWHWWWH, and then the student has to play slowly non-legato, hands separately, C major, one octave up and down. The student should practice this until they can make sounds that are equal both in length and dynamics, and then they can move on to the next part, which is an elaborate explanation of the two ways of thumb crossing, common mistakes, followed by thumb crossing exercises, until the student gets to play C major, still HS, but this time legato.
It continues in the same slow and elaborate manner. I can see no risk for a student to be scared, and personally I prefer an overly elaborate course over one that is too brief.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2822729
03/04/19 01:38 PM
03/04/19 01:38 PM
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All of these elements are in Piano Adventures, though introduced at a fairly slow pace.
This is what I have been using recently: Just Picture It
It's pretty user friendly and goes up to RCM 5. After that level, students should know the patterns anyway.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2822760
03/04/19 03:32 PM
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We've had many threads on scales before, but I don't think I've seen threads on arpeggios.

Most kids do arpeggios VERY poorly, and only a select few can ever play them up to speed.

I haven't tried this yet, but I'm tempted to teach Dominant 7th and diminished 7th broken chords first. Those are much more "finger friendly" than most arpeggios.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2822779
03/04/19 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
We've had many threads on scales before, but I don't think I've seen threads on arpeggios.

Most kids do arpeggios VERY poorly, and only a select few can ever play them up to speed.

I haven't tried this yet, but I'm tempted to teach Dominant 7th and diminished 7th broken chords first. Those are much more "finger friendly" than most arpeggios.


That's surprising. How do you define "up to speed"? RCM starts pretty slow, one octave, and increases a bit each year. I AM NOT A TEACHER and IN MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION, they aren't a very difficult technical exercise.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2822783
03/04/19 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
I haven't tried this yet, but I'm tempted to teach Dominant 7th and diminished 7th broken chords first. Those are much more "finger friendly" than most arpeggios.


As a non teacher but experienced pianist I think that sounds like a good idea AZNPiano, especially diminished 7ths. Also the (mostly) black key arpeggios like A or D flat Major are generally easier, IMO, than the solely white key ones.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/04/19 04:39 PM.

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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: ebonykawai] #2822784
03/04/19 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ebonykawai
That's surprising. How do you define "up to speed"? RCM starts pretty slow, one octave, and increases a bit each year. I AM NOT A TEACHER and IN MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION, they aren't a very difficult technical exercise.

Speaking strictly as a piano student smile (and an early stage one!) arpeggios always felt to me a bit analogous to hopping from one rock to another in getting across a creek/brook - one false jump and you'll end up getting wet. I've gotten "wet" plenty of times with arpeggios and I think this is certainly one of the things that affects my ability to do them smoothly & steadily and at a faster tempo (say comparable to my tempo with scales) - I feel as if I am hesitating slightly, in order to aim, before "leaping for the next rock." I'm going to be watching this thread with interest to see what is said about arpeggios smile


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2822793
03/04/19 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano


Most kids do arpeggios VERY poorly, and only a select few can ever play them up to speed.
.


Too bad, because they sound so good and add so much, especially to something less classical.


gotta go practice
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2822822
03/04/19 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RyanThePianist
Hi all,

In an effort to keep this forum busy...

How do other teachers introduce these basic techniques? Do you prefer the pages from Hanon? Alfred's Scales, Arps, Chords, and Cadence book? I personally find that many of these compilations sheets are better at scaring students than introducing them, as they often include scales in 3rds, 6ths, contrary, etc., and I can understand why students may find it a bit of a long haul visually on the page to learn them all.

How about scale diagrams with fingerings on them for students who don't read well yet? Do you make your own simplified and step-by-step sheets? Do you teach soley by memory and repetition after a solid foundation in theory?

When do you introduce the first scales and arpeggios? After a couple of pentascales? Do you go along with the method books? Do you have your own method?

When I learned these, I already understood the order of sharps, flats and key signatures from my teachers giving me various pieces in different keys. I eventually noticed the patterns. I'd go out of my way to use Hanon book to look at suggested fingerings for the beginning of each scale and arpeggio, wrote them down and memorized them, and most fingerings came intuitively and naturally to me from there. For contrary motion, 3rds, etc, I would just learn them without sheets since I knew regular scales well. Chords, to be honest, I don't remember how I learned them as I feel like there was a point in time where I played so many chords in my music that I knew what major and minor 3rds felt like to build major and minor chords. After this, I would practice a chord a day in every inversion, including 7th chords. I know students don't learn like I do having come from different backgrounds.

Thank you.

The C major is a horrible scale to start with. I start all students with B, Db or Gb, by rote, hands together ASAP. My youngest student, just turned 5, can already play the B major scale two octaves, both hands.

I teach triads in each key, starting with C (C is fine for chords), then move to 7 chords as soon as any student can handle the bigger chords.

Arpeggios are just chords strung out, but the fingering is much more of an issue, so the fingering for arpeggios has to be handled carefully.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: ShyPianist] #2822824
03/04/19 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
DISCLAIMER - I AM NOT A TEACHER 😉

Quote
Do you teach solely by memory and repetition after a solid foundation in theory?


This is how I was taught IIRC. I had one ABRSM scale book but I’m sure that was mostly for reference - what to learn for what exam - rather than instruction.

It can’t have been a bad method for me because all those scales & arpeggios are firmly embedded in my memory and muscle memory decades later.

I learned FACE, every good boy does fine, all cows eat grass and great big dogs fight animals.

Decades later I read lightning fast, so I could conclude that the system I first used and was taught was a good one, but in fact it was horrible. So don't go by what you can do today and assume the way you were taught was an efficient way to learn. Some people figure things out in spite of the system.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: ShyPianist] #2822826
03/04/19 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
I haven't tried this yet, but I'm tempted to teach Dominant 7th and diminished 7th broken chords first. Those are much more "finger friendly" than most arpeggios.


As a non teacher but experienced pianist I think that sounds like a good idea AZNPiano, especially diminished 7ths. Also the (mostly) black key arpeggios like A or D flat Major are generally easier, IMO, than the solely white key ones.

Because arpeggios that contain at least one white key tell you where to put your thumb. Where there are two white keys, as in a D7 chord, it becomes more tricky, depending on the inversion or starting note.

All black is also tough though not seen much, as in an Eb m7 chord.

All white, as you mentioned, is the most difficult because there are too many choices...


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Gary D.] #2822827
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Fair enough GaryD, and I know non-teacher input is considered inferior here, but I happen to believe it was a good system and if I was teaching now I believe I would use it myself. If you are teaching basic technique and harmonic principles then it makes absolutely zero sense, in my view and in the case of scales and arpeggios, to have your student rely on learning from a book.


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Gary D.] #2822830
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Originally Posted by Gary D.

Because arpeggios that contain at least one white key tell you where to put your thumb. Where there are two white keys, as in a D7 chord, it becomes more tricky, depending on the inversion or starting note.

All black is also tough though not seen much, as in an Eb m7 chord.

All white, as you mentioned, is the most difficult because there are too many choices...


Yes to all of that, but also because of the finger placement. A mixture of black and white keys is more natural for the hands. All black, as you say, is pretty horrid.


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: ShyPianist] #2822864
03/04/19 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Fair enough GaryD, and I know non-teacher input is considered inferior here, but I happen to believe it was a good system and if I was teaching now I believe I would use it myself. If you are teaching basic technique and harmonic principles then it makes absolutely zero sense, in my view and in the case of scales and arpeggios, to have your student rely on learning from a book.

I'm confused. When did I say it's good to rely on learning from a book?

I start off with the B scale, taught by key color. Then Db, which is the same thing but moves E and B to F and C. Then Gb, which uses Cb and F but can be taught as F and B.

Those are the three easiest scales to play.

Then I teach F major, because the thumbs always meet, same as the other three that use all the black keys.

C major only after those three, because in C the thumb of either hand easily goes on any white key, so 5 out of 7 choices in each hand may be comfortable but are wrong.

Then I teach that C, D, E, G, and A are like C. then Ab is like C, but looks different because of where the thumbs fall. Bb and Eb last because both scales use unique fingerings.

I teach people to read these scales AFTER then can play them in the form I teach them. But always reading in pieces themselves, where the scales are used.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Gary D.] #2822958
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Quote
I'm confused. When did I say it's good to rely on learning from a book?


You didn’t, but I stated that I was taught by a method that didn’t use a book and you warned me that success for me doesn’t mean it was a good method (fair point). So I went on to say that I believe it was a very good method and far preferable to what I would see as the alternative of learning from a book (obviously there are shades in between).

Your method sounds excellent by the way, but then I guess I would say that since a similar method worked for me 35 years ago. 😉


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: ShyPianist] #2822968
03/05/19 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Quote
I'm confused. When did I say it's good to rely on learning from a book?


You didn’t, but I stated that I was taught by a method that didn’t use a book and you warned me that success for me doesn’t mean it was a good method (fair point). So I went on to say that I believe it was a very good method and far preferable to what I would see as the alternative of learning from a book (obviously there are shades in between).

Your method sounds excellent by the way, but then I guess I would say that since a similar method worked for me 35 years ago. 😉


Ah I see the issue Gary. I said “you” but I was speaking in general terms I didn’t mean you personally.

<sigh> I’ve spent enough time in web forums over the years, you’d think I’d know better (or should that be one?)

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/05/19 04:49 AM.

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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: ShyPianist] #2822981
03/05/19 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
Quote
I'm confused. When did I say it's good to rely on learning from a book?


You didn’t, but I stated that I was taught by a method that didn’t use a book and you warned me that success for me doesn’t mean it was a good method (fair point). So I went on to say that I believe it was a very good method and far preferable to what I would see as the alternative of learning from a book (obviously there are shades in between).

Your method sounds excellent by the way, but then I guess I would say that since a similar method worked for me 35 years ago. 😉

The difference is that when you start with rote, the B scale is easiest. But you can't start there with notation. It doesn't matter what order you learn the scales in, since the goal is to have all 12, and then you can play them in any order.

The B scale is so easy because there are "grooves" for the thumbs, and it's easy to learn not to put thumbs on black keys - a rule that is later broken many times.

The way the fingers move for B major and C major is very different, so getting to those two scales and comfortable playing both is great for flexibility and understanding how the fingers work.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Gary D.] #2822983
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Quote
The difference is that when you start with rote, the B scale is easiest. But you can't start there with notation. It doesn't matter what order you learn the scales in, since the goal is to have all 12, and then you can play them in any order.

The B scale is so easy because there are "grooves" for the thumbs, and it's easy to learn not to put thumbs on black keys - a rule that is later broken many times.

The way the fingers move for B major and C major is very different, so getting to those two scales and comfortable playing both is great for flexibility and understanding how the fingers work.


Yes, I don't think there's any disagreement between us is there? Or is this now addressed to the OP, which would figure since it's his thread and his question! I think it's really refreshing to hear of a teacher who isn't afraid to have their students use the black keys early on, although I guess it depends on how early you introduce scales. I find most beginner piano methods I've seen really quite depressing for their incessant focus on white keys and C major. I'm not a teacher, as I said, but I've often considered it and if I was ever to go for a teachers' diploma this is something I would want to explore further (or perhaps I'm mistaken?). I've already experimented a bit with my own kids (who have no wish for formal lessons, although my eldest has guitar lessons) and they certainly have no problem learning simple tunes that involve the black keys.

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/05/19 05:51 AM.

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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2823162
03/05/19 04:22 PM
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RE: Cadences

You obviously have to start with basic triads and their inversions. Then I go to the common-tone version of the I-IV-I-V7-I progression in the key that the student is working on.

However, throughout the years, I've found that kids loathe this stuff. They just want to play their favorite songs and "songs." All this technical stuff bore them to death. I'm tired of fighting their antipathy.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2823249
03/06/19 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
RE: Cadences

You obviously have to start with basic triads and their inversions. Then I go to the common-tone version of the I-IV-I-V7-I progression in the key that the student is working on.

However, throughout the years, I've found that kids loathe this stuff. They just want to play their favorite songs and "songs." All this technical stuff bore them to death. I'm tired of fighting their antipathy.


Very true for my 12 year old. He can’t find the “time” to play ONE group each night -3 times each- so he does it quickly in the morning before school. It takes him like 5 minutes or less. He wouldn’t do it at all though unless I reminded him. every .single .day.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2823252
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
However, throughout the years, I've found that kids loathe this stuff. They just want to play their favorite songs and "songs." All this technical stuff bore them to death. I'm tired of fighting their antipathy.


Originally Posted by pianoMom2006
Very true for my 12 year old. He can’t find the “time” to play ONE group each night -3 times each- so he does it quickly in the morning before school. It takes him like 5 minutes or less. He wouldn’t do it at all though unless I reminded him. every .single .day.


As I said, I am not a teacher. But I would first try to motivate them to play scales, by explaining how this practice would help them, and also by showing them how nice it sounds when they get it right, like equal pearls on a string. But if I failed at that, I would just drop it. Unless they seem to be on a path of becoming a musician, what is the harm in not having them play scales? It is a serious question. Let them practise songs and more songs, to their hearts' delight. If they get older and still love tp play the piano, they can start practising scales when there is a willingness to do so.

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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Animisha] #2823293
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Originally Posted by AZNpiano
However, throughout the years, I've found that kids loathe this stuff. They just want to play their favorite songs and "songs." All this technical stuff bore them to death. I'm tired of fighting their antipathy.


Originally Posted by pianoMom2006
Very true for my 12 year old. He can’t find the “time” to play ONE group each night -3 times each- so he does it quickly in the morning before school. It takes him like 5 minutes or less. He wouldn’t do it at all though unless I reminded him. every .single .day.


As I said, I am not a teacher. But I would first try to motivate them to play scales, by explaining how this practice would help them, and also by showing them how nice it sounds when they get it right, like equal pearls on a string. But if I failed at that, I would just drop it. Unless they seem to be on a path of becoming a musician, what is the harm in not having them play scales? It is a serious question. Let them practise songs and more songs, to their hearts' delight. If they get older and still love tp play the piano, they can start practising scales when there is a willingness to do so.


My kids are required to do all their homework (which for piano includes SCA) not pick and choose to do the pieces they want.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2823318
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Originally Posted by RyanThePianist
Hi all,

In an effort to keep this forum busy...

How do other teachers introduce these basic techniques? Do you prefer the pages from Hanon? Alfred's Scales, Arps, Chords, and Cadence book? I personally find that many of these compilations sheets are better at scaring students than introducing them, as they often include scales in 3rds, 6ths, contrary, etc., and I can understand why students may find it a bit of a long haul visually on the page to learn them all.

How about scale diagrams with fingerings on them for students who don't read well yet? Do you make your own simplified and step-by-step sheets? Do you teach soley by memory and repetition after a solid foundation in theory?

When do you introduce the first scales and arpeggios? After a couple of pentascales? Do you go along with the method books? Do you have your own method?

When I learned these, I already understood the order of sharps, flats and key signatures from my teachers giving me various pieces in different keys. I eventually noticed the patterns. I'd go out of my way to use Hanon book to look at suggested fingerings for the beginning of each scale and arpeggio, wrote them down and memorized them, and most fingerings came intuitively and naturally to me from there. For contrary motion, 3rds, etc, I would just learn them without sheets since I knew regular scales well. Chords, to be honest, I don't remember how I learned them as I feel like there was a point in time where I played so many chords in my music that I knew what major and minor 3rds felt like to build major and minor chords. After this, I would practice a chord a day in every inversion, including 7th chords. I know students don't learn like I do having come from different backgrounds.

Thank you.

I made a sheet that has key signatures, fingering for 1 octave scales and 1 octave arpeggios, and then I IV V I chord progression all in root position for each key (written out on staff). It has only the C major scale & arpeggio written out, the rest just finger numbers used.

I usually teach only scales 1 octave going around the circle of 5ths, then the 2nd time around I usually add chords and possibly arpeggios too. If not the 2nd time around, I'll do arpeggios the 3rd time, depending on the student's development. After that, we will explore minor scales, but I refer to other books that have the fingering on there, same for doing 2 8va scales & arpeggios.

Regarding chords, I find if they can easily build major triads, then other kinds of chords - minor, augmented, diminished triads as well as 7th chords - are all derivatives of the major triad. So having a solid foundation in building major triads in any key is important, and then being able to do inversions once that is solid is necessary as well. Many method books covers doing inversions fairly well, so I don't often assign separate exercises for that, but will do if a student needs the extra attention there.

As for speed, all things, IMO must be done at a tempo that keeps it easy. Once it's difficult, it is too fast too soon. I'd much rather hear a very slow, deliberate, and accurate scale, chords, and arpeggio than something rushed through with inaccuracies and the tension that most likely contributes to the inaccuracies. Speed in scales is worked on later around when the student is doing intermediate rep, but again, not before they have built the foundation of being able to do it slowly, accurately, and without tension.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Animisha] #2823320
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Unless they seem to be on a path of becoming a musician, what is the harm in not having them play scales? It is a serious question.

No, that's an awful position to adopt. To be anywhere near competent as a pianist, one should at least KNOW how to play all the major and minor scales. You don't have to play it at an amazing speed, but the correct fingering needs to be internalized and legato needs to be achieved.

I'm not ready to give up the fight, so I will continue to smash antipathy as brutally as possible. In fact, the more I dislike a student, the more technical exercises and etudes I will assign. Those teachers who assign 100 Czerny exercises per year must really hate their students.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2823323
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In fact, the more I dislike a student, the more technical exercises and etudes I will assign. Those teachers who assign 100 Czerny exercises per year must really hate their students.


I’m starting to really like you AZNPiano! 😂


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2823347
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Animisha
Unless they seem to be on a path of becoming a musician, what is the harm in not having them play scales? It is a serious question.

No, that's an awful position to adopt. To be anywhere near competent as a pianist, one should at least KNOW how to play all the major and minor scales. You don't have to play it at an amazing speed, but the correct fingering needs to be internalized and legato needs to be achieved.


I agree here. They're just too important to ignore.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2823360
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All this talk of scales and arpeggios made me look up mine, only to discover that they seem to have vanished! So am off to buy some of Friday. As a teenager at one time I used to practice them all at the start partly to loosen up and get my head in gear. A very long time ago but perhaps worth going back to basics every now and again.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2837279
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Well, to add to this thread which I discovered on a link from Tyrone, I have finally learned all major and minor scales, N, H, and M, in 12 (or more accurately 24) keys, 4 octaves, HT. I finish each with an arpeggio, 3 notes and 4 octaves, HT. It has been quite an undertaking. I now do all keys on weekends, and 2-3 per day on the weekdays with the corresponding dom7 and diminished arpeggios (popsicle stick rotation).

Where I am lacking is cadences. Is it generally agreed to start with I IV I V7 I, or rather I IV V7 I or ii V I, which I have toyed with? And should I begin with 3 notes, vs 4 notes which I find to be more complicated for cadences. Is this just overkill or should I be working towards 4 note cadences. Finally, does it matter which inversion to play with cadences? I tend to vary them but think to gain consistency I should simplify for now.

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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Animisha] #2838123
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Originally Posted by Animisha
Un0less they seem to be on a path of becoming a musician, what is the harm in not having them play scales?


Nothing. Everything is in the rep anyway and you can still become good. The notes are in the score, or the chords are in the lead sheet.

You can force feed kids and it's done all the time. But still, many protest and simply quit. So, where is the value now?

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Greener] #2838156
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Originally Posted by Greener
Nothing. Everything is in the rep anyway and you can still become good. The notes are in the score, or the chords are in the lead sheet.

You can force feed kids and it's done all the time. But still, many protest and simply quit. So, where is the value now?

I went to school with a kid who refuses to eat any fruit or vegetable. Basically, the only "plants" he would agree to eat are fries and rice.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838167
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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838170
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Not making the connection with scales, sorry.

Look i am not anti-scale, but if the student just wants to play and not aiming to be a star, are there no Teacher's to take them? Thankfully i found one and have a lifetime of piano enjoyment.

I got an earful of everything that was wrong with consevatory teaching when i was young and this was one area.

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Greener] #2838186
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Originally Posted by Greener
Not making the connection with scales, sorry.

I suspect there was none.

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838204
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
I went to school with a kid who refuses to eat any fruit or vegetable. Basically, the only "plants" he would agree to eat are fries and rice.

My takeaway from AZNpianos post is that if you let children do only what “they like” they end up doing many things that are exceedingly mediocre or even harmful to themselves in the long run.

Personally I’m in the camp that kids have to eat their vegetables (yes, all of them ;)) and should learn a basic amount of scales and chords if they are piano students, even if it’s only one octave worth.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: keystring] #2838211
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Originally Posted by keystring
Originally Posted by Greener
Not making the connection with scales, sorry.

I suspect there was none.


Seriously?

I don't presume to speak for anyone, but try this interpretation:

Eating only your favorite foods all the time is not an optimal diet, although it is possible to survive on such a diet.
Playing only what you like all the time is not an effective way to learn to play the piano, although it is possible to carry on doing so forever.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838217
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I'd rather not try interpretations because communication is hard enough in an international forum with people with extremely differing backgrounds. That is the first thing.Greener stated that scales are in repertoire, which they are. Whether chords are in lead sheets depends on whether you are using lead sheets, but one can excerpt scales - both block type and arpeggiated, from piano music much of the time. One might have pros and cons about the practicality and effectiveness of such an approach. One could also look at ways of teaching and drilling scales that are a turn-off, and ways that might not be. The kid not eating veggies: maybe he was forced to eat them when young and got turned off them, who knows.

I don't think Greener was talking about doing only what one likes. Greener?

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838227
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Greener
Nothing. Everything is in the rep anyway and you can still become good. The notes are in the score, or the chords are in the lead sheet.

You can force feed kids and it's done all the time. But still, many protest and simply quit. So, where is the value now?

I went to school with a kid who refuses to eat any fruit or vegetable. Basically, the only "plants" he would agree to eat are fries and rice.

Two is so limited. Besides potatoes and rice, I myself do include corn in the vegetable group. So three. thumb


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2838249
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Two is so limited. Besides potatoes and rice, I myself do include corn in the vegetable group. So three. thumb

Come on! No love for kale?


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838271
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Two is so limited. Besides potatoes and rice, I myself do include corn in the vegetable group. So three. thumb

Come on! No love for kale?

Still incomprehensible.

Greener's suggestion, as I understood it, was that scales can also be found in repertoire as another way of learning to play scales. People have been guessing what you meant.

There is a response to a joke, but not to the ideas presented by your fellow teachers. (?)

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838286
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Two is so limited. Besides potatoes and rice, I myself do include corn in the vegetable group. So three. thumb

Come on! No love for kale?

sick ... That said, nuts grow on plants too don't they? So nuts. That makes 4 vegetables. smile

Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 04/12/19 06:05 AM.

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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838310
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Thank you, Keystring.

____

Just to be clear, I am not a Teacher. Surprise, surprise. cool

My Father was a Teacher though, and career performer after completing RCM in Canada to grade 10.

I know, who cares right?

Well, I mention it because in the end he rebelled against it all primarily due to the fact it was one size fits all regardless of what is really required. This left a big gap and he was able to capitalize on it.

All of the topic line is in the rep. That's why we drill it. But, It's overkill for the majority. Some approaches i see here are easier to digest then others and make good sense. A little at a time as needed sure. Drilling everything in all keys is insane.

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838324
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano

Come on! No love for kale?


My love for kale rivals my love of eating cardboard boxes from Amazon. I am sure they could be combined into a soup which would be equally beautiful as tasty!


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: malkin] #2838326
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by AZNpiano

Come on! No love for kale?

My love for kale rivals my love of eating cardboard boxes from Amazon. I am sure they could be combined into a soup which would be equally beautiful as tasty!

+1 !!! thumb


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838356
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Greener
Nothing. Everything is in the rep anyway and you can still become good. The notes are in the score, or the chords are in the lead sheet.

You can force feed kids and it's done all the time. But still, many protest and simply quit. So, where is the value now?

I went to school with a kid who refuses to eat any fruit or vegetable. Basically, the only "plants" he would agree to eat are fries and rice.


I read that the proportions of protein, fat, and carbohydrates in the average American diet is the same as in a Hershey bar with almonds.

So I switched my diet to just eat Hershey bars with almonds. Bah dum pah.

Picky eaters. According to Mary Roach, my favorite science popularizer writer, there is a window in a baby's development where becoming picky can be avoided if you give the child tiny tastes (size of grain of rice) of different foods. I think the book is Gulp. She has a lot of very interesting and readable books, and is also on everybody's top ten Ted talk lists for a video I can't discuss here. That window closes after 4 months.

Back to topic, I've been a bit skeptical about the application of scales directly to repertoire. Usually I see only fragments of scales used, and almost never with the school book fingering taught in the scales books. But last week, probably 1st or 2cnd April, the public radio station was playing some kind of piano concerto with orchestra on my way to work, and the whole thing seemed to be one constant major scale. I've tried unsuccessfully to find the name of that piece. My googlefu is weak.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: malkin] #2838357
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by AZNpiano

Come on! No love for kale?


My love for kale rivals my love of eating cardboard boxes from Amazon. I am sure they could be combined into a soup which would be equally beautiful as tasty!


Kale is best sautéed in coconut oil.

Makes it slide easily into the trash can.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838359
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In what Greener wrote: I don't think the problem is with scales, but the way they are taught, how they're drilled, the whole "traditional" routine. If someone had an unpleasant experience, it doesn't have to be that way. It can be interesting, and it can also be useful. The physical side of playing should also not be neglected. Is the traditional way an intelligent way? Etc.

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Originally Posted by Greener
Not making the connection with scales, sorry.

Look i am not anti-scale, but if the student just wants to play and not aiming to be a star, are there no Teacher's to take them? Thankfully i found one and have a lifetime of piano enjoyment.

I got an earful of everything that was wrong with consevatory teaching when i was young and this was one area.

Every teacher has the right to teach what they feel is best for the student. Many of us try to give them a little of what they want alongside of what they need. But when a student starts dictating what I teach them, then I start to feel they should be with someone else.

They are paying me for their expertise, but if they are perpetually arguing against that, then what's the point? Sure I could do it and take their money, but I have pride in who I am as a teacher. I teach what I feel over the years will have the most value to a general student who wants to learn to play for their own enjoyment. I continue to learn, but I do have an identity for my studio that I wish to maintain. If a student or parent rails against that, then I'm not the teacher for them.

There are plenty out there who will do what you say and take your money. Just understand that most good teachers know the importance of learning scale, chords and arpeggios for any style of playing.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Greener] #2838386
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Originally Posted by Greener
Thank you, Keystring.

____

Just to be clear, I am not a Teacher. Surprise, surprise. cool

My Father was a Teacher though, and career performer after completing RCM in Canada to grade 10.

I know, who cares right?

Well, I mention it because in the end he rebelled against it all primarily due to the fact it was one size fits all regardless of what is really required. This left a big gap and he was able to capitalize on it.

All of the topic line is in the rep. That's why we drill it. But, It's overkill for the majority. Some approaches i see here are easier to digest then others and make good sense. A little at a time as needed sure. Drilling everything in all keys is insane.

Well, RCM has its pluses and minuses. But that doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater, as they say. That means not all of it is bad. Just because RCM has you do scales doesn't mean that you shouldn't do scales if you don't like RCM.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838418
04/12/19 01:04 PM
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Agree with everything you are saying, Morodiene. I like rcm and have keen interest for 2 youngsters that are approaching diploma. It was my Dad's beef not mine.

Of course, in the case of children, they can't be in control. Perhaps they are of their parents, but even so it's your school that sets the standard.

Usually, i think teaching is a lot more flexible now and this is encouraging. But, not always and there is danger in getting caught up in group ideas by consensus that no longer get challenged.

That's all ...

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838439
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My thoughts on RCM and such:

It has a framework and proposed books coming in one binding, and other repertoire that can be bought separately. There are exams one can take or not take. The exams can become the raison d'etre for lessons, leading to iffy things such as working on only a few exam pieces etc. yadda yadda. The thing is that we have to separate this from the teaching. How is a teacher teaching, working with this material (the pieces, scales, etudes etc.)? How is he teaching, and what is he teaching toward? Whether it's a program, a method book, or a set of music such as the traditional: Czerny, Hanon, sonatas or whatever the progression is ........ how, what, and why is taught is the point.

My first ever lessons were via RCM on another instrument. I had to stop for various reasons. Years later, knowing a lot more about learning than I did then, I looked through the technical material. I could see what those etudes might have been teaching, how they might have been approached. I had a different understanding of scales, which I had played daily, churning through all of them while hearing Solfege in my head. You can "go through" any system or book or sets of repertoire/etudes and get different things out of them depending on how they are taught and studied.

Another separate thing is if there is "official fingering" for scales or pieces, and if the exam wants to see that fingering, when a different fingering might be good for that student's hand. This violates a basic principle of musicianship for more than one instrument, that says you always look for the easiest thing, and don't stick to something that works less well.

If scales are a turn-off for a student, is it because of attitude, how it's taught, or a combination of both? (An open question).

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: keystring] #2838444
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Originally Posted by keystring


My thoughts:

If scales are a turn-off for a student, is it because of attitude, how it's taught, or a combination of both? (An open question).


If the teacher knows why he is teaching scales, I don't think it's a turnoff.

If the teacher doesn't know why, maybe has never really thought about it, but is super dogmatic about doing it anyway, that will turn off some students.

If the teacher does know why but is wrong, that will turn off a different set of students.


gotta go practice
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: TimR] #2838457
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Originally Posted by TimR
Kale is best sautéed in coconut oil.

Makes it slide easily into the trash can.

Kale is flying off the shelf at an alarming rate in California. Maybe this is just a local phenomenon.

I'm the expert in kale, rutabaga, asparagus, radicchio, bok choy, and all things nutritious. But my students prefer candy bars. And fries and rice.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: keystring] #2838462
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Originally Posted by keystring
If scales are a turn-off for a student, is it because of attitude, how it's taught, or a combination of both? (An open question).

No, it's laziness, 95% of the time.

I stomp on laziness.

The other 5% consists of stupidity, impatience, and attention deficit disorder.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838469
04/12/19 03:57 PM
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It is in fact, nothing short of a miracle that modern methods of instruction have not entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry.

... Or so says Albert Einstein.

Funny, just came across this quote in 1st chapter today of book i am reading. Slow reader but very determined.

Don't like or dislike scales. Just have never needed them. But that's just me and i am not preaching it. Just offering another view.

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Greener] #2838476
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Originally Posted by Greener
Don't like or dislike scales. Just have never needed them. But that's just me and i am not preaching it. Just offering another view.

Well, if you get your two kids to agree with you, they might have a harder time passing RCM exams. They are required components of the RCM exams in piano.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838477
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by TimR
Kale is best sautéed in coconut oil.

Makes it slide easily into the trash can.

Kale is flying off the shelf at an alarming rate in California. Maybe this is just a local phenomenon.

I'm the expert in kale, rutabaga, asparagus, radicchio, bok choy, and all things nutritious.

I operate by a pretty simple rule. If it's green, it's not safe to eat.

Originally Posted by AZNpiano
But my students prefer candy bars. And fries and rice.

Understandable. Those 3 aren't green.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838483
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Oh yeah, sorry. Only one of the two is working on diploma. She's not ours.

Mine doesn't do scales either, but I had nothing to do with it. Honest, i just went along with it. smile . Maybe she'll skip grade 8. Dunno, not up to me

Her teacher seems fairly hip.

Last edited by Greener; 04/12/19 05:00 PM.
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2838489
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I operate by a pretty simple rule. If it's green, it's not safe to eat.



You should try the cardiologist's diet:
"If it tastes good, spit it out"


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: cmb13] #2838492
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I operate by a pretty simple rule. If it's green, it's not safe to eat.


You should try the cardiologist's diet:
"If it tastes good, spit it out"

shocked My mother is a cardiologist? shocked


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838504
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I actually do eat a lot of kale. A mixture of mild salsa and avocado works as a salad dressing for it.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838522
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by keystring
If scales are a turn-off for a student, is it because of attitude, how it's taught, or a combination of both? (An open question).

No, it's laziness, 95% of the time.

I stomp on laziness.

The other 5% consists of stupidity, impatience, and attention deficit disorder.

I disagree, and I could call this a lazy response. wink (friendly wink) I don't think that what I wrote was that unclear or incomprehensible, and I am sure that it makes sense to you, as a teacher, that how scales are taught, toward what, etc. matters.

I did scales. My hands went numb. I had followed questionable instructions. 'nuff said.

I know you're a better teacher than that. When you get the transfer students, you don't just decide that they are stupid, impatient or have a made up popularized "disorder".

Btw, kale with a bit of oil and salt, put in the oven, is scrumptious - like leafy potato chips but better. A new family favourite since half a year. Pretty good in soups too.

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Morodiene] #2838536
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Sure I could do it and take their money, but I have pride in who I am as a teacher.


Morodiene, this means you truly value teaching and want to do the right thing for your students. You are not driven by being paid and doing what the student/parent demands to keep a customer. As a piano student, I don't know what I don't know and I pay for being taught. If a student wants to do what they want to do anyway, really they do not need to pay an expert, that is just a waste of money.

An employee came to me to mentor them in research, because she failed the first time she had taken the class. She was working on her masters. If she did not pass a second time she would be dismissed from the program and owe the funding back for the scholarship. The employee has to graduate is part of that contract and serve time back to the government. She was passing at mid-point but contended I was too hard on her and she no longer needed my help. However, by the end of the semester her grade fell and she did not pass. She ended up owing 28,000 back for her scholarship. I wanted to ask her was I $28,000 to hard? My point is learning is not easy and some students don't feel they need to work hard to get what they want.

If I could buy being a good pianist I would, but its not for sale. You only get there by hard work and practice. Most of us need a good teacher as well. I commend you on not compromising your values for the dollar.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: cmb13] #2838558
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Originally Posted by cmb13
You should try the cardiologist's diet: "If it tastes good, spit it out"

By extension, you could say musically "if it sounds good, don't practice it". ... oooh sounds so evil ... grin


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Groove On] #2838652
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Originally Posted by Groove On
Originally Posted by cmb13
You should try the cardiologist's diet: "If it tastes good, spit it out"

By extension, you could say musically "if it sounds good, don't practice it". ... oooh sounds so evil ... grin


The local jazz professor near here often says "if it sounds good, you're not practicing. You're showing off. Stop showing off and start practicing."


gotta go practice
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: keystring] #2840849
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Originally Posted by keystring

Btw, kale with a bit of oil and salt, put in the oven, is scrumptious - like leafy potato chips but better. A new family favourite since half a year. Pretty good in soups too.


What's your recipe? I keep trying to cook kale in the oven and it ends up burned to a crisp. (Obvious disclaimer: I am a terrible cook.)

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: DutchTea] #2840854
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Originally Posted by DutchTea
Originally Posted by keystring

Btw, kale with a bit of oil and salt, put in the oven, is scrumptious - like leafy potato chips but better. A new family favourite since half a year. Pretty good in soups too.


What's your recipe? I keep trying to cook kale in the oven and it ends up burned to a crisp. (Obvious disclaimer: I am a terrible cook.)


Try a lower temp in the oven.
Also get an oven thermometer; the thermostats on household ovens can be wildly inaccurate.


Learner
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2841234
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If you're interested in cooking, even a little bit, you need to read this:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=food+lab...g=googhydr-20&ref=pd_sl_9spnszfekd_b

The book is Food Lab: Better Home Cooking through Science, by kenji Lopez-Alt.

It's well written and explains not only how to do things but why.

I have it from the library now but may buy a copy, it's that good.


gotta go practice
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2841274
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CookWise by Shirley Corriher is a terrific resource.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: TimR] #2841285
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Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by Groove On

By extension, you could say musically "if it sounds good, don't practice it" ... oooh sounds so evil ... laugh


The local jazz professor near here often says "if it sounds good, you're not practicing. You're showing off. Stop showing off and start practicing."

Well, they're sort of different things. That is, I don't know if Groove On was joking (i.e. grin emoticon) - because I do follow that advice in the sense that you don't need to practise what is already solid. You need to work on what needs to be worked on.

The jazz professor's advice, I'm not sure how that is meant, in what context. I have a practising mode where I am working methodically on this and that, and it doesn't sound musical or "good". But there is a point where you put it together - still practising - and it should sound good, as well as feeling comfortable in the body (my weakness being physical tension from poor acquired habits). Do you know how he means that?

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2842028
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I take a break for a month, and come back to a discussion on scales and kale. smile Anyone try, "If you don't play your scales, I'll make you eat some kale"? JK. laugh

Continuing the tangent... raw kale is bad in anything more than tiny quantities, but in cooked form, it's got benefits, and is way better-tasting than raw. Here's my favorite recipe with kale in it:

Pepperpot Soup

12 c. water
1.5 lbs. stew beef
ham hock
10 oz. fresh baby spinach with stems removed, finely chopped
1/2 lb. kale, finely chopped
10 oz. fresh (or frozen, thawed) okra, cut into "wheels"
6 medium potatoes, peeled and diced
1 onion, peeled and chopped
6 green onions, chopped
2 small chili peppers, seeded and chopped
2 cloves garlic, crushed
2 sprigs fresh thyme (or a couple pinches dried thyme)
13 oz. coconut milk

(I don't follow this recipe exactly--we like more potatoes and a little less spinach and kale, and about half of the onions, peppers, and garlic.)

In a large kettle, bring water to a boil. Add beef. Reduce heat, cover, and simmer for about one hour.

Add ham hock.

Cut up spinach, kale, okra, and potatoes. Add to soup kettle.

Brown onions, peppers and garlic while beef is cooking.

Cook the beef until it's tender. Pour soup through a sieve to catch the meat and vegetables, with another large kettle underneath to catch the liquid. Remove any bones from meat/vegetable mixture. Put meat and vegetables in kettle with liquid.

Add fried onions, chili pepper, garlic and thyme to kettle. Simmer until soup thickens some.

Add coconut milk and stir well. Cook ten minutes more and serve hot.

Delicious with a side of scales, arpeggios, chords, and cadences. wink

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Andamento] #2842092
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Originally Posted by Andamento
I take a break for a month, and come back to a discussion on scales and kale. smile Anyone try, "If you don't play your scales, I'll make you eat some kale"?



Could we combine the two into a portmanteau and just say "skales?"


Learner
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Andamento] #2842167
04/25/19 04:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Andamento
Pepperpot Soup

12 c. water
1.5 lbs. stew beef
ham hock
10 oz. fresh baby spinach with stems removed, finely chopped
1/2 lb. kale, finely chopped
10 oz. fresh (or frozen, thawed) okra, cut into "wheels"
6 medium potatoes, peeled and diced
1 onion, peeled and chopped
6 green onions, chopped
2 small chili peppers, seeded and chopped
2 cloves garlic, crushed
2 sprigs fresh thyme (or a couple pinches dried thyme)
13 oz. coconut milk

(I don't follow this recipe exactly--we like more potatoes and a little less spinach and kale, and about half of the onions, peppers, and garlic.)

In a large kettle, bring water to a boil. Add beef. Reduce heat, cover, and simmer for about one hour.

Add ham hock.

Cut up spinach, kale, okra, and potatoes. Add to soup kettle.

Brown onions, peppers and garlic while beef is cooking.

Cook the beef until it's tender. Pour soup through a sieve to catch the meat and vegetables, with another large kettle underneath to catch the liquid. Remove any bones from meat/vegetable mixture. Put meat and vegetables in kettle with liquid.

Add fried onions, chili pepper, garlic and thyme to kettle. Simmer until soup thickens some.

Add coconut milk and stir well. Cook ten minutes more and serve hot.

And what would be the name of this recipe if we just left out the spinach, kale, okra, green onions, and thyme?


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: malkin] #2842389
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by Andamento
I take a break for a month, and come back to a discussion on scales and kale. smile Anyone try, "If you don't play your scales, I'll make you eat some kale"?



Could we combine the two into a portmanteau and just say "skales?"


LOL, yes. I was trying to find a clever way to put "skales" into my post -- you supplied what I was looking for. smile

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2842392
04/25/19 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
And what would be the name of this recipe if we just left out the spinach, kale, okra, green onions, and thyme?


How about Guyanese Pepperpot? See HERE. (Mine was based on Jamaican Pepperpot.) You won't find kale, spinach, or okra in the Guyana version, and you could skip the green onions and thyme in the recipe at the link and then miss out on a couple more of those poisons. wink

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2842393
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Back on topic now for the OP:

Have you looked at Keith Snell's Scale Skills series in the Kjos Piano Library? The books (at eleven levels) include scales, arpeggios, chords and progressions in 24 keys, plus other exercises.

My first two piano teachers (I studied with them for a total of maybe about three years) did no scales or anything of the sort with me. So when I went to my third teacher, starting around age 11 or so, and she introduced me to scales and such, it was a rude awakening. I was one of those kids who hated scales.

How ever you decide to teach scales, etc., or whether you use books or not, start early! Let it be a natural part of their studies from the earliest stages. My own children didn't have nearly the bad attitude about scales that I had when I was a student, and I'd guess it's because I had them play them much earlier than it was ever required of me.

Last edited by Andamento; 04/25/19 04:34 PM.
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2842543
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I find it hilarious how my post turned into a cooking channel!

My method currently is to teach the B Major scale by rote to even beginner students after they know how to play a few Major pentascales correctly. I've had success with a 7 year old and she loves to show off her B Major skills. My city offers Technique syllabi that I use to introduce scales. I also have separate print outs that include one octave scales, cadences, and two octave arpeggios. Once they master a few scales and arpeggios, I will likely refer to something else that has more than one octave such as Hanon. Perhaps I'll create a table of all the scales, arpeggios, and chords so students can track which ones they've learned. I hope students will see that many of the scales and arpeggios are similar and be motivated to tackle the table quickly after they've learned the first few.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2842809
04/27/19 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by RyanThePianist
My method currently is to teach the B Major scale by rote to even beginner students after they know how to play a few Major pentascales correctly.

Do you have students who struggle with pentascales? I have a kid who transferred to me from a kiddie program two years ago, and she still can't play pentascales correctly. Do you use any interesting strategies?

FWIW, I never teach scales to young beginners until they reach it in their method books--and for some kids I might decided to postpone scales altogether. I think this rote-teaching of scales will only form bad habits later on.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2842821
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
[quote=RyanThePianist]
Do you have students who struggle with pentascales? I have a kid who transferred to me from a kiddie program two years ago, and she still can't play pentascales correctly. Do you use any interesting strategies?


To give you a bit of context, nearly all my students started with me. The ones who didn't, about 7 students, took lessons for a few months with another teacher or a "music school" but the parent pulled them out because they wanted a less cookie cutter education or wanted a quiet private setting, so they basically started with me as well. For the "transfer wrecks" who took lessons for a few years, I had to basically start from Express Book 1 or 2 unless they were early intermediate level students playing Sonatinas.

Now to begin answering your question. I introduce the C pentascale by rote just a bit before Alfred Premier formally introduces them in book 2A. Thus, I introduce pentascales in the middle of 1B or towards the end of the first Express Book. I find starting them early is the key, and with separate hands.

I want to elaborate more on the 7 year old girl who I mentioned could play B Major Scale one octave hands together. I spend 4-5 days a week with her for 45-60 minutes because of practice sessions I offer, so her progress is entirely because of me. Before we got to the pentascales in the 2A book, she was playing one handed white key pentascales for about 2 months. After constant reminders about no overlaps in sound, curved fingers, loose level wrists, and counting, she easily put both hands together. It also helps that she loves piano and has parents who can afford so much time with me.

The same process worked with Junior Hanon exercise 1 with her just recently. She did hands separate for 1 month, and just recently she played two hands together simply because she was bored and decided to, and hey it was pretty good!

Same process for B Major, which was taught before the Hanon.

My other students learn similarly, though with more or less technical problems such as stiff wrists, flying fingers, etc. which I try to fix asap. I require these students to practice white key pentascales hand separate every day at home and I see their progress every week. I also require they memorize them because... well, it's not too hard to memorize.

So no, I don't have the most "interesting" strategies... but simply hands separate for a long time seems to work. In my opinion, Alfred Premier introduces pentascales way too fast in the sense that many songs begin to involve pentascales in Lesson 2A out of nowhere... just look at "Bartok's Study" and "Shadows". I find it better to start early.

Last edited by RyanThePianist; 04/27/19 04:11 AM.

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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2842871
04/27/19 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by RyanThePianist

I want to elaborate more on the 7 year old girl who I mentioned could play B Major Scale one octave hands together. I spend 4-5 days a week with her for 45-60 minutes because of practice sessions I offer, so her progress is entirely because of me.
...
So no, I don't have the most "interesting" strategies.


I think 45-60 minutes 4-5 days each week is a pretty interesting strategy!


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2842936
04/27/19 11:13 AM
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Yup. They would do every day if my schedule allowed. She's basically 3-4 students in one haha. She advances noticeably faster than the students around her age, she sightreads every practice, and her technique is solid.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2842998
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Originally Posted by RyanThePianist
I want to elaborate more on the 7 year old girl who I mentioned could play B Major Scale one octave hands together. I spend 4-5 days a week with her for 45-60 minutes because of practice sessions I offer, so her progress is entirely because of me.

I'm going to quote you on that. Several of my students need this, and obviously their parents can afford to do so.

I have a couple of students who have two lessons a week, and they progress SO MUCH faster than the other little ones.

In contrast, I have a pair of siblings who split a 30-minute lessons, so I see them 15 minutes per week. You can guess how poorly they play. It's like their parents aren't willing to invest the time or energy or money.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2843101
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Thanks AZNpiano. Ouch. I wouldn't even accept split 30 min lessons. I recently had to talk to a family of a pair of siblings saying 30 min was not enough for the 9 year old because it was too easy for him. I barely had enough time to introduce new material too. I can't imagine 15 min lesson per kid... they must learn... 2 kiddie songs a month.

I require parents of students ages 4-7 to sit in during lessons so they know how to guide their child at home. I even text "Practice Guidelines" each week to these families. It's a bit extra work, but these kids progress decently and families are happy. My practice sesh 7 year old progresses way faster than these students still.

Also, I notice around 7+ is when kids want to practice on their own without their parents, haha.

Last edited by RyanThePianist; 04/28/19 02:31 AM.

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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: TimR] #2843148
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Originally Posted by TimR
Originally Posted by Groove On
Originally Posted by cmb13
You should try the cardiologist's diet: "If it tastes good, spit it out"

By extension, you could say musically "if it sounds good, don't practice it". ... oooh sounds so evil ... grin


The local jazz professor near here often says "if it sounds good, you're not practicing. You're showing off. Stop showing off and start practicing."


More off topic than cooking............

Yesterday our trombone choir did a concert in the local library. (I asked if I should bring a mute. Eyes rolled.) That professor showed up, and he's a virtuoso player. And............he sat down next to me and played the same part. I found it a bit intimidating.


gotta go practice
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: malkin] #2843424
04/29/19 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by RyanThePianist

I want to elaborate more on the 7 year old girl who I mentioned could play B Major Scale one octave hands together. I spend 4-5 days a week with her for 45-60 minutes because of practice sessions I offer, so her progress is entirely because of me.
...
So no, I don't have the most "interesting" strategies.


I think 45-60 minutes 4-5 days each week is a pretty interesting strategy!
The legendary Bernhard of PianoStreet advocated this. Not everyone has the time or the money, though....


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Stubbie] #2843436
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Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by RyanThePianist

I want to elaborate more on the 7 year old girl who I mentioned could play B Major Scale one octave hands together. I spend 4-5 days a week with her for 45-60 minutes because of practice sessions I offer, so her progress is entirely because of me.
...
So no, I don't have the most "interesting" strategies.


I think 45-60 minutes 4-5 days each week is a pretty interesting strategy!
The legendary Bernhard of PianoStreet advocated this. Not everyone has the time or the money, though....


This is the formula used at piano camp: 60 min private lesson daily; master classes in the evening. Awesome! Wish it could be my normal routine.... alas, lack of both time and money


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: dogperson] #2843452
04/29/19 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dogperson
Originally Posted by Stubbie
Originally Posted by malkin
I think 45-60 minutes 4-5 days each week is a pretty interesting strategy!
The legendary Bernhard of PianoStreet advocated this. Not everyone has the time or the money, though....
This is the formula used at piano camp: 60 min private lesson daily; master classes in the evening. Awesome! Wish it could be my normal routine.... alas, lack of both time and money

I do two 45-min lessons a week. I don't think I practice enough for much more lesson time to be fruitful, although I could see in a future edition of my piano lessons asking my teacher to extend to 2x60mins instead of 2x45mins. This is assuming I can get back on the wagon with practicing, which was temporarily derailed by a pinky sprain from the dreaded 'collapsing pinky' phenomena.


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