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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2838249
04/12/19 02:01 AM
04/12/19 02:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Two is so limited. Besides potatoes and rice, I myself do include corn in the vegetable group. So three. thumb

Come on! No love for kale?


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838271
04/12/19 04:10 AM
04/12/19 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Two is so limited. Besides potatoes and rice, I myself do include corn in the vegetable group. So three. thumb

Come on! No love for kale?

Still incomprehensible.

Greener's suggestion, as I understood it, was that scales can also be found in repertoire as another way of learning to play scales. People have been guessing what you meant.

There is a response to a joke, but not to the ideas presented by your fellow teachers. (?)

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838286
04/12/19 06:03 AM
04/12/19 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Two is so limited. Besides potatoes and rice, I myself do include corn in the vegetable group. So three. thumb

Come on! No love for kale?

sick ... That said, nuts grow on plants too don't they? So nuts. That makes 4 vegetables. smile

Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 04/12/19 06:05 AM.

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"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838310
04/12/19 07:27 AM
04/12/19 07:27 AM
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Thank you, Keystring.

____

Just to be clear, I am not a Teacher. Surprise, surprise. cool

My Father was a Teacher though, and career performer after completing RCM in Canada to grade 10.

I know, who cares right?

Well, I mention it because in the end he rebelled against it all primarily due to the fact it was one size fits all regardless of what is really required. This left a big gap and he was able to capitalize on it.

All of the topic line is in the rep. That's why we drill it. But, It's overkill for the majority. Some approaches i see here are easier to digest then others and make good sense. A little at a time as needed sure. Drilling everything in all keys is insane.

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838324
04/12/19 07:55 AM
04/12/19 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano

Come on! No love for kale?


My love for kale rivals my love of eating cardboard boxes from Amazon. I am sure they could be combined into a soup which would be equally beautiful as tasty!


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: malkin] #2838326
04/12/19 08:06 AM
04/12/19 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by AZNpiano

Come on! No love for kale?

My love for kale rivals my love of eating cardboard boxes from Amazon. I am sure they could be combined into a soup which would be equally beautiful as tasty!

+1 !!! thumb


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838356
04/12/19 09:32 AM
04/12/19 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by Greener
Nothing. Everything is in the rep anyway and you can still become good. The notes are in the score, or the chords are in the lead sheet.

You can force feed kids and it's done all the time. But still, many protest and simply quit. So, where is the value now?

I went to school with a kid who refuses to eat any fruit or vegetable. Basically, the only "plants" he would agree to eat are fries and rice.


I read that the proportions of protein, fat, and carbohydrates in the average American diet is the same as in a Hershey bar with almonds.

So I switched my diet to just eat Hershey bars with almonds. Bah dum pah.

Picky eaters. According to Mary Roach, my favorite science popularizer writer, there is a window in a baby's development where becoming picky can be avoided if you give the child tiny tastes (size of grain of rice) of different foods. I think the book is Gulp. She has a lot of very interesting and readable books, and is also on everybody's top ten Ted talk lists for a video I can't discuss here. That window closes after 4 months.

Back to topic, I've been a bit skeptical about the application of scales directly to repertoire. Usually I see only fragments of scales used, and almost never with the school book fingering taught in the scales books. But last week, probably 1st or 2cnd April, the public radio station was playing some kind of piano concerto with orchestra on my way to work, and the whole thing seemed to be one constant major scale. I've tried unsuccessfully to find the name of that piece. My googlefu is weak.


gotta go practice
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: malkin] #2838357
04/12/19 09:33 AM
04/12/19 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by malkin
Originally Posted by AZNpiano

Come on! No love for kale?


My love for kale rivals my love of eating cardboard boxes from Amazon. I am sure they could be combined into a soup which would be equally beautiful as tasty!


Kale is best sautéed in coconut oil.

Makes it slide easily into the trash can.


gotta go practice
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838359
04/12/19 09:39 AM
04/12/19 09:39 AM
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In what Greener wrote: I don't think the problem is with scales, but the way they are taught, how they're drilled, the whole "traditional" routine. If someone had an unpleasant experience, it doesn't have to be that way. It can be interesting, and it can also be useful. The physical side of playing should also not be neglected. Is the traditional way an intelligent way? Etc.

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Greener] #2838384
04/12/19 10:56 AM
04/12/19 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Greener
Not making the connection with scales, sorry.

Look i am not anti-scale, but if the student just wants to play and not aiming to be a star, are there no Teacher's to take them? Thankfully i found one and have a lifetime of piano enjoyment.

I got an earful of everything that was wrong with consevatory teaching when i was young and this was one area.

Every teacher has the right to teach what they feel is best for the student. Many of us try to give them a little of what they want alongside of what they need. But when a student starts dictating what I teach them, then I start to feel they should be with someone else.

They are paying me for their expertise, but if they are perpetually arguing against that, then what's the point? Sure I could do it and take their money, but I have pride in who I am as a teacher. I teach what I feel over the years will have the most value to a general student who wants to learn to play for their own enjoyment. I continue to learn, but I do have an identity for my studio that I wish to maintain. If a student or parent rails against that, then I'm not the teacher for them.

There are plenty out there who will do what you say and take your money. Just understand that most good teachers know the importance of learning scale, chords and arpeggios for any style of playing.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Greener] #2838386
04/12/19 10:58 AM
04/12/19 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Greener
Thank you, Keystring.

____

Just to be clear, I am not a Teacher. Surprise, surprise. cool

My Father was a Teacher though, and career performer after completing RCM in Canada to grade 10.

I know, who cares right?

Well, I mention it because in the end he rebelled against it all primarily due to the fact it was one size fits all regardless of what is really required. This left a big gap and he was able to capitalize on it.

All of the topic line is in the rep. That's why we drill it. But, It's overkill for the majority. Some approaches i see here are easier to digest then others and make good sense. A little at a time as needed sure. Drilling everything in all keys is insane.

Well, RCM has its pluses and minuses. But that doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater, as they say. That means not all of it is bad. Just because RCM has you do scales doesn't mean that you shouldn't do scales if you don't like RCM.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838418
04/12/19 01:04 PM
04/12/19 01:04 PM
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Agree with everything you are saying, Morodiene. I like rcm and have keen interest for 2 youngsters that are approaching diploma. It was my Dad's beef not mine.

Of course, in the case of children, they can't be in control. Perhaps they are of their parents, but even so it's your school that sets the standard.

Usually, i think teaching is a lot more flexible now and this is encouraging. But, not always and there is danger in getting caught up in group ideas by consensus that no longer get challenged.

That's all ...

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838439
04/12/19 02:08 PM
04/12/19 02:08 PM
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My thoughts on RCM and such:

It has a framework and proposed books coming in one binding, and other repertoire that can be bought separately. There are exams one can take or not take. The exams can become the raison d'etre for lessons, leading to iffy things such as working on only a few exam pieces etc. yadda yadda. The thing is that we have to separate this from the teaching. How is a teacher teaching, working with this material (the pieces, scales, etudes etc.)? How is he teaching, and what is he teaching toward? Whether it's a program, a method book, or a set of music such as the traditional: Czerny, Hanon, sonatas or whatever the progression is ........ how, what, and why is taught is the point.

My first ever lessons were via RCM on another instrument. I had to stop for various reasons. Years later, knowing a lot more about learning than I did then, I looked through the technical material. I could see what those etudes might have been teaching, how they might have been approached. I had a different understanding of scales, which I had played daily, churning through all of them while hearing Solfege in my head. You can "go through" any system or book or sets of repertoire/etudes and get different things out of them depending on how they are taught and studied.

Another separate thing is if there is "official fingering" for scales or pieces, and if the exam wants to see that fingering, when a different fingering might be good for that student's hand. This violates a basic principle of musicianship for more than one instrument, that says you always look for the easiest thing, and don't stick to something that works less well.

If scales are a turn-off for a student, is it because of attitude, how it's taught, or a combination of both? (An open question).

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: keystring] #2838444
04/12/19 02:32 PM
04/12/19 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring


My thoughts:

If scales are a turn-off for a student, is it because of attitude, how it's taught, or a combination of both? (An open question).


If the teacher knows why he is teaching scales, I don't think it's a turnoff.

If the teacher doesn't know why, maybe has never really thought about it, but is super dogmatic about doing it anyway, that will turn off some students.

If the teacher does know why but is wrong, that will turn off a different set of students.


gotta go practice
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: TimR] #2838457
04/12/19 03:10 PM
04/12/19 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by TimR
Kale is best sautéed in coconut oil.

Makes it slide easily into the trash can.

Kale is flying off the shelf at an alarming rate in California. Maybe this is just a local phenomenon.

I'm the expert in kale, rutabaga, asparagus, radicchio, bok choy, and all things nutritious. But my students prefer candy bars. And fries and rice.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: keystring] #2838462
04/12/19 03:26 PM
04/12/19 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by keystring
If scales are a turn-off for a student, is it because of attitude, how it's taught, or a combination of both? (An open question).

No, it's laziness, 95% of the time.

I stomp on laziness.

The other 5% consists of stupidity, impatience, and attention deficit disorder.


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Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838469
04/12/19 03:57 PM
04/12/19 03:57 PM
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It is in fact, nothing short of a miracle that modern methods of instruction have not entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry.

... Or so says Albert Einstein.

Funny, just came across this quote in 1st chapter today of book i am reading. Slow reader but very determined.

Don't like or dislike scales. Just have never needed them. But that's just me and i am not preaching it. Just offering another view.

Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: Greener] #2838476
04/12/19 04:43 PM
04/12/19 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Greener
Don't like or dislike scales. Just have never needed them. But that's just me and i am not preaching it. Just offering another view.

Well, if you get your two kids to agree with you, they might have a harder time passing RCM exams. They are required components of the RCM exams in piano.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: AZNpiano] #2838477
04/12/19 04:48 PM
04/12/19 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by AZNpiano
Originally Posted by TimR
Kale is best sautéed in coconut oil.

Makes it slide easily into the trash can.

Kale is flying off the shelf at an alarming rate in California. Maybe this is just a local phenomenon.

I'm the expert in kale, rutabaga, asparagus, radicchio, bok choy, and all things nutritious.

I operate by a pretty simple rule. If it's green, it's not safe to eat.

Originally Posted by AZNpiano
But my students prefer candy bars. And fries and rice.

Understandable. Those 3 aren't green.


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Introducing all Scales, Arpeggios, Chords, and Cadences [Re: RyanThePianist] #2838483
04/12/19 04:59 PM
04/12/19 04:59 PM
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Oh yeah, sorry. Only one of the two is working on diploma. She's not ours.

Mine doesn't do scales either, but I had nothing to do with it. Honest, i just went along with it. smile . Maybe she'll skip grade 8. Dunno, not up to me

Her teacher seems fairly hip.

Last edited by Greener; 04/12/19 05:00 PM.
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