Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2.7 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Best of Piano Buyer
 Best of Piano Buyer
(ad)
Piano Life Saver - Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
Find a Professional
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers

Advertise on Piano World

(ad)
Accu-Tuner
Sanderson Accu-Tuner
Who's Online Now
109 registered members (Avalanch, 36251, Aimer, AZNpiano, AaronSF, Bett, apianostudent, 5penguins, 25 invisible), 3,397 guests, and 6 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
(ad)
Estonia Pianos
Estonia Pianos
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Live Piano Venues
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Directory/Site Map
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords & Scales
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 #2820339
02/26/19 01:29 PM
02/26/19 01:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 114
S
schinl Offline OP
Full Member
schinl  Offline OP
Full Member
S

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 114
Hello all,

One of my dreams as a continuing adult is to eventually learn Liebestraum. I am a few years away, but my teacher and I are looking for suggestions on easier pieces that I could play as preparation for it. Specifically we are looking for pieces that could help with the octaves and runs. I usually struggle with playing forte, making (and hitting) jumps, and stamina.

Here are some previous pieces I've learned:

-Chopin Nocturne 9/2
-Rachmaninoff Prelude 23/4 (D major)
-Joplin Heliotrope Bouquet
-Chopin Etude 25/1 (Aeolian Harp)
-Parts of Chopin Romanze/Larghetto (Piano concerto 1)

BTW I am just playing this for fun, not for a conservatory or whatever!
I thought of starting with Rachmaninoff's Nocturne 1, but I am curious to hear any more suggestions and advice, thank you!

Last edited by schinl; 02/26/19 01:32 PM.

_________________________________
www.openinkstand.com
Piano & Music Gifts & Accessories (570)
Piano accessories and music gift items, digital piano dolly, music theme party goods
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820388
02/26/19 03:50 PM
02/26/19 03:50 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,996
Florida
cmb13 Online confused

Silver Level
cmb13  Online Confused

Silver Level
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,996
Florida
Liszt Consolation in Db was quite nice. There are some octaves in there. Some Chopin nocturnes have runs as well, as you must have encountered in 9.2. Nocturne 20 C# maj has a few brief runs at the end. Does that help?


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Debussy Clair De Lune
Bach Inventions
Grieg Sonata - Andante molto

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: cmb13] #2820401
02/26/19 04:10 PM
02/26/19 04:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,808
In the Ozarks of Missouri
NobleHouse Offline
2000 Post Club Member
NobleHouse  Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 2,808
In the Ozarks of Missouri
Originally Posted by cmb13
Liszt Consolation in Db was quite nice. There are some octaves in there. Some Chopin nocturnes have runs as well, as you must have encountered in 9.2. Nocturne 20 C# maj has a few brief runs at the end. Does that help?


Great suggestions!


[Linked Image]
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820412
02/26/19 04:44 PM
02/26/19 04:44 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
The first cadenza in Liebestraume No. 3, is not quite like anything found in Chopin.

[Linked Image]

The challenge here is the two-note descending fourths, jumping from the second of the two-note group to the first of the next two-note group. These two-note groups are accompanied by parallel two-note phrases in the left hand. Accuracy for the jumps is the challenge, and making sure all the three-note groups sound absolutely together.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820416
02/26/19 04:48 PM
02/26/19 04:48 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
The second cadenza, again, is quite unlike what you find in most of Chopin's passage work - although there may be some resemblance to some

[Linked Image]

Here, the challenge is the descending broken thirds in contrary motion in the two hands; needless to say, it has to be light, rapid and totally even.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820418
02/26/19 04:53 PM
02/26/19 04:53 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
I don't think that the octaves in the Consolation No. 3 will be of that much help in managing the octaves in Liebestraum No. 3.

[Linked Image]

The challenge here is not the octaves per se, but, rather, playing the octaves as melody and then jumping down an octave to play the accompaniment, and then jumping back up an octave to play the next melody note.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820420
02/26/19 04:59 PM
02/26/19 04:59 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
The final challenge, which should be the first one worked on, is the sustaining of the melody in the first twenty or so measures where that melody is carried primarily by the thumbs of each hand. The listener shouldn't be aware of any transfer of the melody from one hand to the other. The accompanying notes, particularly in the right hand must remain as accompanying notes and not overpower the melody.

Probably the best preparatory work for this section is the piece itself.

Finally, make sure that each measure is counted as six beats; I've heard some try to play the accompaniment as triplets and thus giving only four beats to the bar. Not only is that obviously wrong, it really louses things up when you get to measure 5, where obviously one is playing in 6/4 not 4/4.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820448
02/26/19 06:37 PM
02/26/19 06:37 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 114
S
schinl Offline OP
Full Member
schinl  Offline OP
Full Member
S

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 114
Thank you for your responses!

cmb13: Yes, the consolation in Db was in the short list, but we are trying to avoid pieces that has running left hand. I did struggle with the runs at the end of Nocturne 9/2. Did you mean the Nocturne in C sharp minor op posth?

BruceD: Thank you! Yes, the cadenzas are very scary. And my teacher also pointed out the jumping octaves while maintaining the melody will be a challenge. I encountered a little bit of that in the Aeolian harp etude, but only for a few bars.

While I am of course eager to learn Liebestraum, I don't feel quite ready for it.. My teacher did mention that if I really really want to learn it, we can start, but I mustn't give up on it (I have a tendency to give up on pieces halfway), so I'd hate for that to happen prematurely. Hence a few training pieces would be welcome.


_________________________________
www.openinkstand.com
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820460
02/26/19 07:05 PM
02/26/19 07:05 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,996
Florida
cmb13 Online confused

Silver Level
cmb13  Online Confused

Silver Level
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,996
Florida
Yes, sorry, I meant C#min....but Bruce knows a lot more about these than I do, so I'd go with his recommendations.


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Debussy Clair De Lune
Bach Inventions
Grieg Sonata - Andante molto

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: cmb13] #2820465
02/26/19 07:19 PM
02/26/19 07:19 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by cmb13
Yes, sorry, I meant C#min....but Bruce knows a lot more about these than I do, so I'd go with his recommendations.


Given that the OP is still "a few years away" from working on Liebestraum no. 3, your suggestions are just as valid as mine, and perhaps more appropriate for the moment. S/he does need to work on some basic repertoire until then that includes passage work and simple octave melodies.

I sometimes go overboard when, in a given context, a more simple answer might be more appropriate. smile

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820476
02/26/19 07:59 PM
02/26/19 07:59 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,996
Florida
cmb13 Online confused

Silver Level
cmb13  Online Confused

Silver Level
2000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2013
Posts: 2,996
Florida
:cheers:

With every piece comes new, or at least reinforced skills. I’m personally not ready for the piece in question. Those above did teach me new skills though! Good intro to octaves, target bass notes and landing practice, not to mention polyrhythms, and short runs.


Steinway A3
Boston 118 PE

YouTube

Working On
Debussy Clair De Lune
Bach Inventions
Grieg Sonata - Andante molto

"You Can Never Have Too Many Dream Pianos" -Thad Carhart
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820483
02/26/19 08:24 PM
02/26/19 08:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 114
S
schinl Offline OP
Full Member
schinl  Offline OP
Full Member
S

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 114
Thank you, I will look into the C# min Nocturne.

Your analysis was great, thanks Bruce! Any suggestions of stepping stone repertoire is also welcome.


_________________________________
www.openinkstand.com
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820493
02/26/19 08:50 PM
02/26/19 08:50 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,602
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,602
New York City
Originally Posted by schinl
Thank you, I will look into the C# min Nocturne.
There is very little, if anything, in that piece that is related to the difficulties in Liebestraum. The scale runs at the end of that piece are not like anything in Liebestraum.

Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820495
02/26/19 09:03 PM
02/26/19 09:03 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,602
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,602
New York City
Two Liszt song transcription that would help with the difficulty in the first part of L that Bruce mentioned(melody between the two hands) are Litanei
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3M2mpJJUQg
and On Wings of Song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Ppc05b7nE

Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: pianoloverus] #2820536
02/26/19 11:04 PM
02/26/19 11:04 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Two Liszt song transcription that would help with the difficulty in the first part of L that Bruce mentioned(melody between the two hands) are Litanei
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3M2mpJJUQg
and On Wings of Song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7Ppc05b7nE


Good selections: I have performed both of these, the second one just this Sunday for my performance group, after accompanying one of my singer-friends who sang the original vocal/piano version. However, apart from the cadenzas, the Mendelssohn/Liszt is as difficult as Liebestraum 3. Litanei may be a better possibility for the OP, eventually.

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820543
02/26/19 11:15 PM
02/26/19 11:15 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,602
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,602
New York City
Another great piece to practice melodies shared between both hands:
Mendelssohn's Duetto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQtLgjZCEbQ

Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2820578
02/27/19 01:58 AM
02/27/19 01:58 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
BruceD Offline
Gold Subscriber
BruceD  Offline
Gold Subscriber
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 22,873
Victoria, BC
Another piece which frequently carries the melody between the two thumbs is Anton Rubinstein's "Melody in F."

Melody in F

Regards,


BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2822050
03/02/19 05:58 PM
03/02/19 05:58 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,970
D
dolce sfogato Offline
2000 Post Club Member
dolce sfogato  Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,970
Cécile Chaminade: etude de concert op.35 no.2 'Automne', it has 'thumb-melodies' and a lot of octaves, just for stamina and expression it might be the right stuff.


Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure, but not anymore!
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2823149
03/05/19 03:22 PM
03/05/19 03:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 114
S
schinl Offline OP
Full Member
schinl  Offline OP
Full Member
S

Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 114
Thanks for all your suggestions!

YIKES the Chaminade is terrifying, it is beautiful but I don't think I am anywhere near it.. it looks more like liebestraum is a preparatory for it, rather than the other way around.. haha!

The Litanei and Wings of Song are beautiful but I don't understand it, there are two bass clefs? Which one should I be playing?


_________________________________
www.openinkstand.com
Re: Preparatory pieces for Liebestraum 3 [Re: schinl] #2823152
03/05/19 03:33 PM
03/05/19 03:33 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,602
New York City
pianoloverus Online content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
pianoloverus  Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,602
New York City
Originally Posted by schinl
The Litanei and Wings of Song are beautiful but I don't understand it, there are two bass clefs? Which one should I be playing?
You play both of them. I would definitely try Litanei first because, as Bruce mentioned earlier, it's considerably easier than the Mendelssohn. The two bass staves are there so it's easier to follow the melody line on the middle staff. They've very conveniently indicated which hand plays which notes in the melody. Stem up notes are played with the RH and stem down are played with the LH.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Brendan, Kreisler 

Shop our Store for Music Lovers!
PianoSupplies.com is Piano World's Online Store
Please visit our store today.
(ad)
Pianoteq
PianoTeq Bechstein
(ad)
Faust Harrison Pianos
Faust Harrison 100+ Steinway pianos
New Topics - Multiple Forums
In ear headphones
by KevinM. 09/15/19 04:16 PM
Using an Institutional Piano at Home?
by navindra. 09/15/19 04:12 PM
Yohan Kim
by pianoloverus. 09/15/19 03:54 PM
TuneLab iOS testers needed
by Robert Scott. 09/15/19 02:48 PM
piano strings?
by VladK. 09/15/19 12:13 PM
What's Hot!!
Our August Newsletter is Out!
------------------
Mason & Hamlin Piano Factory Tour!

-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums RULES & HELP
-------------------
ADVERTISE on Piano World
Forum Statistics
Forums41
Topics194,053
Posts2,869,734
Members94,421
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010
Please Support Our Advertisers


Faust Harrison 100+ Steinways

Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver

 Best of Piano Buyer

PianoTeq Bechstein
Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers


 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter |


copyright 1997 - 2019 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1