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Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: EssBrace] #2821611
03/01/19 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro

Even if the wording is somewhat ambiguous, I think his intended meaning is what you say.


Geez, now that I re-read it, it's plainly obvious that's indeed what he meant. Sorry for the misunderstanding JoeT!

Originally Posted by EssBrace

It bothers me. More than I originally thought it ever would. I really enjoy a very positive sense that the key has reached the bottom of its travel. The wooden Kawais have a bottoming out that feels so ill-defined and mushy. That's the only thing wrong with them for me. In other respects they are pretty much perfect.


Recalling from my MP11, my guess is that this is a specific decision by Kawai in order to fully damp the sound of the keybed. There are two felt strips near the front rail, the one closest to the front of the keys is extremely thick:

[Linked Image]

Replacing that with a flatter strip (such as that used on the back of the keys, from the picture) would certainly reduce the "sponginess" of the bottoming out action, though I imagine it would create more noise from the key and possibly at the hammer end as well.


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Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: Gombessa] #2821614
03/01/19 06:21 PM
03/01/19 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa

Replacing that with a flatter strip (such as that used on the back of the keys, from the picture) would certainly reduce the "sponginess" of the bottoming out action, though I imagine it would create more noise from the key and possibly at the hammer end as well.


I might have bought one if they'd done that.

Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: Chili_Time] #2821696
03/01/19 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Chili_Time
Originally Posted by Beakybird
I saw that video too, and I saw another video where a reviewer mentions the heavy action. Too heavy, IMO.


I saw that in the Bonner's video also and it surprised me because the acoustic Kawai at my teacher's studio has (to me) much heavier action than the Yamaha Upright. My digital P-115 is lighter than both. I need a better piano so hope to play the Yamaha, Kawai and Roland this weekend.Okay I don't need a better piano, I just want a better piano.


Key actions are very different from manufacturer to manufacturer and from model to model. Yamaha has a special place because their key actions are totally different in their DPs. From GHS to NWX, GrandTouch, NU1(X) Upright Action, Grand Action in the N1(X), N2, N3(X) it varies alot in weight, pivot points, resistance on front or back of the keys. It's also a bit of how comfortable you are with the action over time. My NU1X feels light if i only play my NU1X. Since i have an FP-30 (my wife is annoyed by the knocking of the mechanic hammers) which i'm using mostly currrenty, the NU1X action feels very heavy. I have to play 2 or 3 days to getting back into it.

Last edited by Tyr; 03/01/19 09:06 PM.

Current: Yamaha NU1X | Roland FP-30 with Garritan CFX Lite & Pianoteq 6
Past: Yamaha: P-115, YDP-163, CLP-545, CLP-685 | Kawai: CA-98, Novus NV10
Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: karvala] #2821736
03/02/19 12:18 AM
03/02/19 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ShyPianist
JoeT, given that I’ve played numerous acoustic pianos throughout my life and this DP was the first, to date, the only action to give me a problem I’m inclined to think on this occasion it was the DP at fault rather than my technique.

No keyboard action is causing issues, when used in a correct manner. A 220 g church organ action might not be fun to play at first, but it doesn't cause injuries either, when your technique is correct.

That means, if you're struggling with below 100 g on digitals, you should get your technique reviewed, because even if it doesn't hurt on certain specific instruments, it doesn't mean that it's correct and doesn't cause long-term problems.

Originally Posted by karvala
I haven't watched the initial video, but it's also worth noting that downweight is usually measured from 4mm below resting position in order to avoid issues around initial inertia, and the typical 45g-50g comfortable range that people talk about is based on that methodology. If you're measuring from the top including initial inertia, the downweight would need to be somewhat more.

The touch weight of the P-515's NWX 4 mm below resting position somewhere around 55 g for middle C. Is this heavy?


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: Alexander Borro] #2821743
03/02/19 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Peter, It took me a few weeks to get use to the balance of the black keys versus white on the Kawai coming from my Casio too, where the black ones felt heavier compared to the white too, so that was the norm, so yes, I know that feeling when new to it. Nevertheless, today the transition between the two is fine, knowing the nuances of both, but I have wondered about your comment 2 Peter, you may be onto something.

Just out of curiosity, why do you keep both the Casio and the Kawai?

Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: Tommm777] #2821748
03/02/19 01:46 AM
03/02/19 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Tommm777

Just out of curiosity, why do you keep both the Casio and the Kawai?

Why not?


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: jamiecw] #2821764
03/02/19 03:28 AM
03/02/19 03:28 AM
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I personally like the CLP685 action a bit more. It's hard to tell a difference but the keytops are much nicer on the CLP than my friend's CA78. The Yamaha pedals have a nicer feel as well.

Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: JoeT] #2821804
03/02/19 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Tommm777

Just out of curiosity, why do you keep both the Casio and the Kawai?

Why not?


a) Because I have enough room without it getting in the way.
b) It's a handy backup
c) The biggest reason, it is quite fun going back to a different action once in a while. it isn't a bad action at all. Of course not on the level of the kawai in terms of how close to an acoustic it feels, but very serviceable, and it works really well with midi too, even the pedal has good resolution, on the same level as the kawai.

I have thought of selling it. About 4 years of playing on it when I switched to the kawai, but the action was replaced last year under warranty, as well as the sustain pedal assembly, so it still plays like new now. That said, if someone came along and offered £250 give or take, no problem take it away. I just haven't bothered so far to advertise it. Note that this is much cheaper than anything you'll likely find on ebay for that model on average, it was £ 850 new. Excellent starter piano that has served me well.

I also offered it to my brother for his little ones overseas, but he hasn't taken me up on it or shown much interest as yet. I think his estate is big enough for it to go in the back, so he may well take it away some time this year, but he is also dabbling with the idea of getting an acoustic upright for the little ones.

Anyway, I am in no rush.


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
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Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: jamiecw] #2821827
03/02/19 08:48 AM
03/02/19 08:48 AM
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Quote
you should get your technique revewed


Is that right? You’ve played the Yamaha CLP675 for a long period I take it, known to be a heavier action still than the CLP685 because they inexplicably left out some of the counterweights? I have never played any concert grand that felt like that. Guess what? Some instruments suit some people, perhaps well-built men who enjoy thumping away at virtuosic Rachmaninov or Liszt, and don’t suit others who have a different build, playing style and music preferences.

I really resent that comment JoeT. At my age I don’t feel the need to validate myself by being able to boast I can play for hours on any instrument no matter how poorly regulated. If one particular instrument would require fundamental changes to a technique that has served me perfectly well for decades then I will choose a different instrument.


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: jamiecw] #2821830
03/02/19 09:05 AM
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Another point (gosh I am riled!). Much as I now regret giving up professional level music many years ago, the fact remains that I do have to earn a living and playing the piano is not my primary occupation. Therefore other factors intervene, like potential tendon damage from using a computer keyboard and mouse 8 or 9 hours a day. That makes me a mere hobbyist these days, and boy is that a term and concept I hate, but the bottom line is I want to enjoy the limited time I have at the instrument. End of rant.


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: jamiecw] #2821843
03/02/19 10:23 AM
03/02/19 10:23 AM
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I never intended to diss you, ShyPianist. This suggestion was on a purely out of concern, because it's based on personal experience. I also have a lot of history with computers.

Between my (very short) piano education and my restart I was playing on very light-weight digital keyboard actions for many years picking up somewhat insufficient technique. So once I moved to my still pretty light-weight Kawai hammer action of my first digital piano, hands started to hurt quickly. Didn't help that they are small, too, requiring large stretches even for octaves. It took me months to years to work on and correct my piano touch (on my own, no teacher), but it was worth it. It paid off, when I switched to an even heavier Yamaha action, which caused no issues for me. My hands still look as fragile as ever.

If I had ignored those problems, I might have risked severe long-term injuries after enough practice time, even on the lightest action.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: jamiecw] #2821850
03/02/19 10:42 AM
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Yes, I do get what you’re saying JoeT and I do appreciate the concern but I don’t think I’m in the same position. I had 15 years of classical training with all kinds of acoustic pianos from uprights through to concert grands. I’ve had a long break from serious playing for sure, but always with access to a good acoustic upright. I’d never even touched a DP until a month ago!

The CLP675 in question caused me problems with one specific piece, the Chopin E minor prelude, which I find an excellent piece for flushing out any issues with regulation. On some basic uprights it’s really hard to play for the reason that you can’t repeat the soft chords with only a partial return of the key because the mechanism simply doesn’t allow it. On this DP I found a lot of effort was required to control those repeated chords, and it just didn’t sit well with my left hand (which is still a bit sore incidentally, I don’t think long hours of driving help either). There was no assistance from the damper pedal and in that sense the action isn’t true to any acoustic piano. Other pieces were no problem, and I’ve commented elsewhere that it felt like the instrument I *should* choose, but that specific problem with the action put me off. I think the Kawai action is closer to my acoustic but time will tell when it arrives!

Last edited by ShyPianist; 03/02/19 10:46 AM.

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Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: jamiecw] #2821866
03/02/19 11:24 AM
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I was completely unsurprised at your reaction ShyPianist on that question of technique.


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Digital piano: Casio Celviano AP-470. Headphones: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: JoeT] #2821897
03/02/19 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT

No keyboard action is causing issues, when used in a correct manner. A 220 g church organ action might not be fun to play at first, but it doesn't cause injuries either, when your technique is correct.

That means, if you're struggling with below 100 g on digitals, you should get your technique reviewed, because even if it doesn't hurt on certain specific instruments, it doesn't mean that it's correct and doesn't cause long-term problems.


That's a rather sweeping statement with which I don't totally agree. Given enough practice hours, the wrong repertoire, and a particularly unkind action, I've gotten myself sore enough practicing on one digital piano that I was a little concerned. Luckily, it was only 5 days of work before I was able to return to my "regular" practice pianos. 100g is a ridiculous downweight, given many "modern" acoustic grand actions are weighed off to half that with the damper pedal depressed. The technique of playing keyboard instruments through history has changed as the instrument (including its touch weight) has evolved, however slowly. What organ has a 220 gram downweight?


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Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: JoeT] #2821949
03/02/19 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
[
Originally Posted by karvala
I haven't watched the initial video, but it's also worth noting that downweight is usually measured from 4mm below resting position in order to avoid issues around initial inertia, and the typical 45g-50g comfortable range that people talk about is based on that methodology. If you're measuring from the top including initial inertia, the downweight would need to be somewhat more.

The touch weight of the P-515's NWX 4 mm below resting position somewhere around 55 g for middle C. Is this heavy?


It's slightly on the heavy side of what is normal for acoustic pianos, but I don't think I've ever played a P-515 so I can't really comment on what it subjectively feels like.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: jamiecw] #2821956
03/02/19 02:30 PM
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It's an interesting debate on technique for different downweights. Historically pianos were much lighter, and much of the music currently played was intended for lighter instruments. The debate is nothing new; there is an account of a new prospective pupil of Liszt's turning up and playing Weber's A-flat sonata to him, and being horrified by how heavy the action on Liszt's piano was and barely being able to get through the piece. Like any athletic skill, you can learn to adapt to different conditions but it takes time, and it's not possible for most people trained on 50g to be able to play comfortably and without injury on 90g without a substantial training period.


Broadwood, Yamaha U1; Kawai CA67; Pianoteq Std (D4, K2, Blüthner, Grotrian), Garritan CFX Full, Galaxy Vintage D, The Grandeur, Ravenscroft 275, Ivory II ACD, TrueKeys Italian, AS C7, Production Grand Compact, AK Studio Grand, AK Upright, Waves Grand Rhapsody; Sennheiser HD-600 and HD-650, O2 amp
Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: jamiecw] #2821962
03/02/19 02:45 PM
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This is precisely why I won't buy a Clavinova CLP 695GP. It is an absolutely gorgeous piano. It also has a proper grand piano lid unlike comparable Kawais or even the Novus NV10. However, the stiffness of the higher end Yamahas that I've played is a deal-breaker for me. Kawai's Grand Feel Action has ruined me.

Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: JoeT] #2821966
03/02/19 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JoeT
Originally Posted by Tommm777

Just out of curiosity, why do you keep both the Casio and the Kawai?

Why not?

I wish that I'd kept my Casio Privia PX560 when I bought my Kawai MP11SE. It's 25ish pounds was effortless to throw in the back of my truck. Not so with the Kawai. And it's more the size and balance than the weight.

Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: jamiecw] #2821967
03/02/19 02:51 PM
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Some of the stuff about weighting is discussed in this video, including what Robert thinks is sensible.

Good watch in any case.



Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: Kawai's GFII vs Yamaha's Grand Touch (CLP685) [Re: jamiecw] #2821971
03/02/19 03:05 PM
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Thanks, I’ll try to watch that when there’s some free bandwidth here.

Quote
and it's not possible for most people trained on 50g to be able to play comfortably and without injury on 90g without a substantial training period.


Yes, and the point I was making is that such a training period seems to me totally unnecessary given that this weight is found on one or two synthetic actions and not on the vast majority of acoustic pianos.


Pianist, independent music arranger, violinist, mother
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