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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821926
03/02/19 01:39 PM
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Richard , those earlier Tchaikovsky opuses I haven’t learned, but think I’ll download for sight reading practice. In all fairness, I do actually have holes in my learning having probably jumped too far ahead, but they’re filling in.

And Moo can certainly handle this piece as well. I tend to look at new skills as a challenge and an opportunity. I wonder if Moo, with all due respect, tends to see them initially with more trepidation, although I know he too can get this piece down in a matter of weeks to a month.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821936
03/02/19 01:53 PM
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Yes, I have to move my hands off the lower 2 notes. I figure the pedal will sustain those notes for the 2 beats.



Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821965
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I originally posted this on 23rd Feb. but it may have been lost because of the scale practise recommendation.

"M22-25 and M26-29 have some interesting LH chords at the beginning of MM23, 24, 27 and 28, where I might experiment with taking the harmony in LH as a rolled octave with the two thumbs sharing the middle voice between them rather than risk the rhythm breaking up with the rapid bounce from the accaccs to the principal chord. This goes for M15 as well."

Since we're discussing these now I can confirm that I take the octave in LH and share the melody between thumbs using pedal to cover any gaps, which is what I think Ellen is doing.

For M15 I use the RH 3 for the grace note.

The earlier Tchaikovsky, Craig, is wonderful stuff. His Op. 39 was inspired by Schumann's Op. 68, both of which should be in any classical pianist's library if not his history. Op. 40 shouldn't be essential before tackling The Seasons but is a good source of material before tackling his Opp. 10, 19, 51 or 72.

Oh, and you chose this piece, I just offered it, with others, as a suggestion.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821976
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by zrtf90
A lot of challenges? Not if you've played piano before.
I think you've forgotten how someone with just a few years of experience feels.

Originally Posted by cmb13
...I think you’re overstating the difficulty...
This is Craig's own response. His previous pieces include Liszt Consolation No. 3 and two Chopin Nocturnes (C# Minor and Op. 72/1). He also has a teacher who he's consulting with.

To provide some context, this was my OP.
Originally Posted by zrtf90
After the success, the interest and the insightful contributions to Craig's study group thread devoted to Chopin's little Nocturne, it was decided to have another collaborative endeavour, this time investigating Tchaikovsky's Autumn Song, the October entry from his Seasons, Op. 37.

The technical demands of the piece are not great. Typical of Tchaikovsky, there is a lot of counterpoint going on so if you haven't reached the level of Bach Inventions yet and the ability to handle two concurrent melodies you might find the piece more challenging.

And in that context all the difficulties mentioned might have been encountered in easier fare such as Grieg's Arietta, Op. 12/1, Mendelssohn's Andante Sostenuto, Op. 72/2, Bach's Prelude BWV 936, or Tchaikovsky's own Chanson Triste, Op. 40/2. All pieces of a lesser grade than we're looking at here and they would all benefit from greater expertise than we generally start them with.

You may have forgotten yourself how much enthusiasm we normally bring to new pieces when we only have limited experience and how much that helps us overcome the hurdles, without having all the pitfalls thrown before us.

It seems like you missed the point of my post. I think saying a particular piece doesn't have a lot of challenges "if you've played the piano before" is just plain insulting to whomever you addressed it.

Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2821978
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Couple things my teacher pointed out that I had not realized - in case this helps anyone -

The grace notes and notes efE at the end of M8 are all timed as the final third of the 4th triplet. I was coming in too early.

The natural in M13 refers to the C. I assumed it was the B (bc the C should be natural but the B should be flat according to key signature) but he states it is to negate the C# of the previous measure. Of course I pointed out that accidentals are wiped at the end of a measure but he tells me it’s assistance from the editor in this case.

Craig, Thanks for pointing these out - I missed them!

Originally Posted by zrtf90
Since we're discussing these now I can confirm that I take the octave in LH and share the melody between thumbs using pedal to cover any gaps, which is what I think Ellen is doing.

For M15 I use the RH 3 for the grace note.

Richard, i’m splitting that chord between 2 hands but am not rolling it. Taking the lower grace note in M 15 with RH seems awkward.



Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: PianogrlNW] #2821981
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
...

For M15 I use the RH 3 for the grace note.


Actually, it's an interesting idea....I did use the R hand for the very low Db in Liszt's consolation in some spots...


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: Moo :)] #2821986
03/02/19 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Moo :)
I had a play with the score.



I think there are a lot of challenges with it that make it harder than it looks. I think it needs a teacher to go through it.

Even at the start you need to hold the notes for full value. The first bar you must for example hold the chords through the 2nd and 4th beats. This is repeated throughout and provides added difficulty.

The other difficulty is you have to play the accompany chords much quiter than the tune. this is challenging when the tune is quiet.

To maintain the legato in the passages is also a challenge. You need to be very strict with the fingers. You have to do finger changes (e.g. bar 1 45). Bar 7 you need to legato the run which means you have to play 1,4, 3 on the grace notes. I therefore would go through with your teacher and make sure you learn it correct to start with.

I actually found the off beats nature of the piece really off putting. It was a lot harder from there. I think it is a challenging piece and harder than it looks. Would be interested to see how you do. Good luck !


I just reread your post.....I think you do have some good points. That's why I am practicing this very, very slowly, one to four measures per day, adding a couple per day as I go.

Over the course of about 10 days or so, though, it's coming right along. Although there are 56 measures, there are several repeated measures, so it's not as long as it seems. The first 16 repeat completely in 34-49, and 22-25 are duplicated in 26-29, and 17-18 nearly repeat in 19-20, so there are only about 30 independent measures to learn. That said, holding the chords while switching fingers or playing a melody with other fingers is a little tricky but learnable with slow practice.

Regarding the necessity to play the accompaniment softly, to let the melody float, yes this is a challenge. However, I find it a lot easier on a grand than an upright, as the grand allows much softer notes, so that is helping. Additionally, I have been working on this issue on several other pieces, so hopefully this skill is coming along, but I agree, it's a good point.

And finally, I have been writing in fingering before learning each measure, so as to drill it right from the start, with only a few changes along the way as outlined in the discussion of those measures above.

I hope you give it a try too!


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2822037
03/02/19 05:28 PM
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No I won’t bother mate. His comments was just rude. Good luck.

Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2822222
03/03/19 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think saying a particular piece doesn't have a lot of challenges "if you've played the piano before" is just plain insulting to whomever you addressed it.
You found one of Animisha's recent posts insulting as well when I didn't and don't believe she would have intended it that way. That's just you. (Perhaps you could provide a link to an ABF thread where your contribution was positive, constructive or enthusiastic. I didn't post in it so I may not have read it.)

If you put my response in the context of the post as a whole instead of in isolation, take your time, there's no hurry, you might find it reads differently. I looked at the issues raised and found most of them would have been met in much more elementary material. Holding a note while playing another, even in the same hand, is covered in Alfred's Book One. So that problem's not an issue if you've played the piano before. Certainly not for someone who's recently done two significant nocturnes and is working on a third.

The next difficulty is playing the accompaniment softer when the piece is piano anyway. Really, this is covered in Schumann's Melody, Op. 68/1, the Minuet in G from the Anna Magdalena Notebook. This is elementary stuff. It's in the first book of John Thompson's Modern Course for the Piano. It's certainly in Liszt's Db Consolation and Chopin's C# Minor Nocturne. So this is also not an issue if you've played the piano before.

Maintaining legato in passages? Again I'd point to Schumann's Melody and the coda of each of the earlier nocturnes. In other words I don't think it would be an issue if you've played the piano before. And Craig really has played the piano before.

Craig has approached this piece in a spirit of collaboration on the back of a rich and rewarding experience with a somewhat harder piece. He's laying a solid foundation for this piece and approaching it intelligently. He has a teacher, with whom he's discussing the piece, and has a good pedigree for this material.

Moo played through the score of this piece and in a few minutes found himself faced with difficulties of an elementary nature and is now cautioning Craig not to tackle the piece without going through it with a teacher. I found that post negative but after looking at the wider context of the thread I now find it insulting and insensitive as well. Ah, me! What a negative soul I'm turning into!


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2822223
03/03/19 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by PianogrlNW
Richard, i’m splitting that chord between 2 hands but am not rolling it.
Yes, splitting not rolling. I'm sounding it as it's written.


Richard
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2822249
03/03/19 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
Originally Posted by pianoloverus
I think saying a particular piece doesn't have a lot of challenges "if you've played the piano before" is just plain insulting to whomever you addressed it.
You found one of Animisha's recent posts insulting as well when I didn't and don't believe she would have intended it that way. That's just you. (Perhaps you could provide a link to an ABF thread where your contribution was positive, constructive or enthusiastic. I didn't post in it so I may not have read it.)
There you go again with you insults. I have made many thousands of posts on the ABF that meet your "requirements" including one on this thread.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 03/03/19 08:44 AM.
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2822251
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Alright now back to the topic at hand......please let’s not let this derail the thread any further. We all have good intentions and I truly believe no insult was meant by either party. Take it to pm I’d you must hash it out further.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2822431
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Here's an interesting consideration to mull over:

The text indicates Andante doloroso e molto cantabile. When I played it for my teacher - who thought I could/should play it slower than I did, she asked me: "What tempo does dolorso convey to you." I thought that that was more an interpretive indication than one of tempo; for the actual tempo, I was concentrating more on the word andante.

Since "everyone" plays it slower than I do, perhaps I need to give my teacher's comment some serious consideration. She, by the way, is Russian and trained extensively at the Rimsky-Korsakov Conservatory in St. Petersburg, so I need to weigh her advice which I greatly respect.

Regards,


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2822559
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Although doloroso is not a tempo indication I think the “sorrowful” mood indicates a slower tempo with opportunities for rubato and ritanrdando.I have been playing this piece for only about a week and it seems that a this time a good tempo is 60-64 bpm. I haven’t had a lesson to get feedback from my teacher but many of the performances on YT take it at a similar slower than andante tempo. I counted the number of measures that have triplets - 40 out of a total of 56 measures - which effectively speeds up the tempo since you are playing 3 instead of 2 notes per beat. I think at the 60-64 tempo the piece moves along and does not sound like a dirge.

Bruce, what tempo do you play it at? And if others chime in, that would be informative.



Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2822641
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I find the counter melodies don't have room to breathe at 60 bpm. I'm at the 54 bpm area, even slower than that singing the melody on its own at my desk but much of that is more pausing before phrase climaxes while the main beat stays steady around 54. I thought I picked it up at M17 but it seems not. It just feels quicker. Also, I might have just kept time with the 'nome. I haven't started recording it yet so we'll see what happens later.
______________________________

I've been working on M17-21 this week and M9-16. The hardest parts, for me, are keeping the A, beat 4 in M18 and 20, softer than the Bb but close enough to it to keep the phrase intact yet not so soft that it disappears under the LH chord. In M9-16 I have to feel the offbeats better so I repeated the D as a temporary measure and it helped. I also started taking the M15 accacc in LH as well as it kept going that way when I played from memory instead of from the score.

I'll be looking at M22-23 this week and possibly M1-8.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2822661
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Khatia's version is certainly under 60, closer to 54-56 I believe. That's good for me, as it allows for nice expressiveness, and gives me just a little extra time on the transitions.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2822921
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I timed myself twice today and the both came at around 4.5 minutes. It is definitely on the faster side compared to the times posted by other pianists on YT. OK, time for reassessment and deep breaths. I want it to sound relaxed but not like a dirge.



Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2823024
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My Slavic recital submission was 4:49. I'm playing the middle section a little faster now, but yes, the challenge is to preserve the melancholy mood, not to rush without putting everybody to sleep. smile

Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2823033
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Progress report - I've nearly completed the piece, aside from the closing measures. I'm working on smoothing out transitions now, and nailing those chords with the grace notes. I probably hit each of them for a few minutes last night and will do them all again daily for the next few days. Not 100% secure in all spots yet, but getting better.

Retrospectively, I find M9-12 a little trickier than some of the later measures, and I'm working on subtleties like holding that F# in M11 into the first eighth note of M12 while hitting the Bb and D. Slow practice really is the key here.

I also have to take care to remember tiny details, like releasing the Bb in the first beat of M11, as there is a rest before playing it again on the 2nd beat, or similarly holding the D in M9 for only an eighth note. I sometimes get sloppy on these details, but will try to be really precise here.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2823100
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Originally Posted by cmb13[...

I also have to take care to remember tiny details, like releasing the Bb in the first beat of M11, as there is a rest before playing it again on the 2nd beat, or similarly holding the D in M9 for only an eighth note. I sometimes get sloppy on these details, but will try to be really precise here.


It may help if you concentrate on treating the D in measure 9 and the B-flat in measure 11, each, as the last note of a phrase. That note needs to be "lifted off" lightly, as would a singer at the end of a phrase, taking a breath, and then beginning the next phrase. Have you concentrated on playing those phrases by themselves, listening to the phrasing you want to produce, without cluttering your thinking with the accompanying chords in measure 8, and the upper voice in measures 9 through 11?

Regards,


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