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Writing out scores #2820453
02/26/19 06:57 PM
02/26/19 06:57 PM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 12
Norfolk, England
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Chelly85 Offline OP
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Chelly85  Offline OP
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Hi everyone,
I recently read that to really consolidate a piece and have it performance ready, it's a good idea to write out the score from memory. What do you think of this, is it worth the faff? I am sure this would take me an age to do as I'm not great at writing music.

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Re: Writing out scores [Re: Chelly85] #2820462
02/26/19 07:11 PM
02/26/19 07:11 PM
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peterws Offline
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Originally Posted by Chelly85
Hi everyone,
I recently read that to really consolidate a piece and have it performance ready, it's a good idea to write out the score from memory. What do you think of this, is it worth the faff? I am sure this would take me an age to do as I'm not great at writing music.


I've written out my own compos, and even printed out notation versions. But I still have difficulty playing my own stuff.
In fact, it makes it worse, because improvisation is no longer part of the package. It's written in stone.
I wouldn't bother.


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Re: Writing out scores [Re: Chelly85] #2820466
02/26/19 07:23 PM
02/26/19 07:23 PM
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Victoria, BC
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I have never taken the time to follow through with what seems to me an arduous and very time-consuming task.

It seems to me that one may be able to write out the score accurately - let's assume we're not talking about a 20-page Sonata - when one has the time to think out each note before writing it down. I am not sure that, playing from memory up to tempo without the luxury of planning each note ahead, is going to be improved by having written out the score. As I say, I haven't tried it, so ...

Regards,


BruceD
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Re: Writing out scores [Re: BruceD] #2820474
02/26/19 07:55 PM
02/26/19 07:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,908
Auckland, New Zealand
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Ted Offline
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I agree with the others, writing things out is hopelessly time consuming; much more efficient ways exist to get something into memory directly at the instrument. I used to notate very many of my own compositions in earlier years but now I am like Peter in that the spontaneous, improvisational component has become very important to me, and cannot be notated beyond a crude representation anyway.

Last edited by Ted; 02/26/19 07:55 PM.

"We shall always love the music of the masters, but they are all dead and now it's our turn." - Llewelyn Jones, my piano teacher
Re: Writing out scores [Re: Chelly85] #2820507
02/26/19 09:33 PM
02/26/19 09:33 PM
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Reseda, California
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It may help for some people, probably not for most. Try it and decide for yourself.


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Re: Writing out scores [Re: Chelly85] #2820580
02/27/19 02:19 AM
02/27/19 02:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2018
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Sweden
Animisha Offline
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Originally Posted by Chelly85
Hi everyone,
I recently read that to really consolidate a piece and have it performance ready, it's a good idea to write out the score from memory. What do you think of this, is it worth the faff? I am sure this would take me an age to do as I'm not great at writing music.

Instead, I would suggest you mentally go through the notes. For instance, when you're waiting for the bus. smile


Playing the piano is learning to create, playfully and deeply seriously, our own music in the world.
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... feeling like the pianist on the Titanic ...
Re: Writing out scores [Re: Chelly85] #2820591
02/27/19 04:02 AM
02/27/19 04:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,654
Warsaw, Poland
Qazsedcft Offline
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Writing out, no, but it might be a good idea to play each part using only your two index fingers. The point is to disconnect from the muscle memory and consciously know which notes you're playing.


[Linked Image]
Working on:
Mozart Sonata in G major, K. 283
Moszkowski Etude op. 91 no. 18
Chopin Nocturne in C-sharp minor, op. posth.
Re: Writing out scores [Re: Qazsedcft] #2820689
02/27/19 11:27 AM
02/27/19 11:27 AM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 6,269
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Writing out, no, but it might be a good idea to play each part using only your two index fingers. The point is to disconnect from the muscle memory and consciously know which notes you're playing.

Wow. No way! I would be afraid of forming a bad muscle memory! I am working hard to fix one note error on piece I mislearned recently but that darn muscle memory betrays me!


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Writing out scores [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2820704
02/27/19 12:01 PM
02/27/19 12:01 PM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 25,629
New York City
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Writing out, no, but it might be a good idea to play each part using only your two index fingers. The point is to disconnect from the muscle memory and consciously know which notes you're playing.

Wow. No way! I would be afraid of forming a bad muscle memory! I am working hard to fix one note error on piece I mislearned recently but that darn muscle memory betrays me!
Although I would never use the index finger approach as I haven't played by memory for almost 60 years. Even if I had to memorize something that would be one of my last approaches to memorizing since it's so lengthy.

I think that with some experience changing a fingering is not too difficult although doing right before performing is not generally recommended. I generally change fingerings a lot during the study of a piece despite always writing my latest fingering in the score. Sometimes it takes me a long time to find what seem to be the very best fingerings for me.

Re: Writing out scores [Re: Chelly85] #2820769
02/27/19 02:38 PM
02/27/19 02:38 PM
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 1,218
Moscow, Russia
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Iaroslav Vasiliev Offline
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If you haven't written any scores from memory, I think it's well worth doing at least a couple of times. It will help to understand many concepts behind the notation and it will help memorization too, especially if you have good visual memory .

Re: Writing out scores [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2820783
02/27/19 03:29 PM
02/27/19 03:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,654
Warsaw, Poland
Qazsedcft Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Writing out, no, but it might be a good idea to play each part using only your two index fingers. The point is to disconnect from the muscle memory and consciously know which notes you're playing.

Wow. No way! I would be afraid of forming a bad muscle memory! I am working hard to fix one note error on piece I mislearned recently but that darn muscle memory betrays me!

You won't form a bad muscle memory because you never play like that in a performance. Do you really know which notes you're playing or are your hands just doing movements automatically and you're not really aware of the notes? I don't mean to say that you should be aware of each note all the time when you're playing at tempo but if you stop and think can you name the next notes that you need to play or is it just a fuzzy proprioperceptive memory of where your hands need to go next?

BTW, I got this advice from my teacher and it does work.


[Linked Image]
Working on:
Mozart Sonata in G major, K. 283
Moszkowski Etude op. 91 no. 18
Chopin Nocturne in C-sharp minor, op. posth.
Re: Writing out scores [Re: Chelly85] #2820787
02/27/19 03:45 PM
02/27/19 03:45 PM
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The day I think about writing out Gaspard from memory (or even not from memory) will be the day I stop playing piano, which will likely be my last day on this planet. (I might emigrate to Proxima Centauri b, but I haven't decided yet).

I don't have time to waste on such trivial pursuits here on Earth. Heck, I don't even play Trivial Pursuit.......


"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."
Re: Writing out scores [Re: bennevis] #2820803
02/27/19 04:19 PM
02/27/19 04:19 PM
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 2,167
Dublin
johnstaf Offline
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Originally Posted by bennevis
The day I think about writing out Gaspard from memory (or even not from memory) will be the day I stop playing piano, which will likely be my last day on this planet.


Would the spelling of the notes have to agree with Ravel?

Re: Writing out scores [Re: Chelly85] #2820805
02/27/19 04:26 PM
02/27/19 04:26 PM
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Posts: 2,167
Dublin
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I think this might be a good exercise to increase your comfort in music writing, and it might help you to consolidate your understanding of theory, but as a way to memorise music, nope.

BTW, if you write out a wrong note, do you have to go back to the start to make sure you remember it?

Testing yourself is useful, but this is like running a marathon to make sure your training routine is effective.

Re: Writing out scores [Re: Chelly85] #2820893
02/27/19 08:20 PM
02/27/19 08:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,472
Australia
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earlofmar Online content
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Australia
Originally Posted by Chelly85
Hi everyone,
I recently read that to really consolidate a piece and have it performance ready, it's a good idea to write out the score from memory. What do you think of this, is it worth the faff? I am sure this would take me an age to do as I'm not great at writing music.



only my opinion but when I tried this sort of thing I would say I was using a part of my brain when copying something out that wasn't fully engaged and not conducive to memorising. The best method for me to consolidate is plenty of practice over a long period of time. Further to this, it didn't happen in my early years, but the last couple of years I can picture some of the music in my mind as I play and sense the notes and movements through my fingers. This sort of picture and tactile memory my teacher tells me is a sign I am learning at a deeper level than before.


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Re: Writing out scores [Re: Chelly85] #2820899
02/27/19 09:04 PM
02/27/19 09:04 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,204
Georgia, USA
Sam S Offline

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I have actual experience doing this...

I had a teacher ask me to do this for a small section of a Bach fugue that I was having trouble memorizing. I did it, but it didn't help in the least.

Sam

Last edited by Sam S; 02/27/19 09:05 PM.
Re: Writing out scores [Re: Chelly85] #2820926
02/27/19 11:23 PM
02/27/19 11:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2017
Posts: 680
Toronto, Canada
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thepianoplayer416 Offline
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Toronto, Canada
It's probably as effective if you just take out whatever recording device you have (phone, computer, sound recorder, camera, etc.) and play your score from memory and then check the score how accurate you are afterwards.

Re: Writing out scores [Re: Chelly85] #2820975
02/28/19 06:53 AM
02/28/19 06:53 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,204
Georgia, USA
Sam S Offline

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If you see the score in your mind's eye as you play from memory, then this might help you. But very few people can do that. I have to hear it in my head and memorize gestures and notes/chords. So writing it out from memory did not help me.

Sam

Re: Writing out scores [Re: Sam S] #2821049
02/28/19 12:36 PM
02/28/19 12:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 6,269
Tyrone Slothrop Online content
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Originally Posted by Sam S
If you see the score in your mind's eye as you play from memory, then this might help you. But very few people can do that.

What? Other people don't see the score in their mind's eye as they play?!?! shocked shocked shocked Really??? We are talking about a memorized piece right? Even after fully memorizing it?

Originally Posted by Sam S
I have to hear it in my head and memorize gestures and notes/chords.

Wow. No wonder some people have such problems memorizing. Memorizing gestures (apart from muscle memory which seems to be borderline autonomous) seems so awkward...


across the stone, deathless piano performances

"Discipline is more reliable than motivation." -by a contributor on Reddit r/piano
"Success is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration." -by some other wise person
"Pianoteq manages to keep it all together yet simultaneously also go in all directions; like a quantum particle entangled with an unknown and spooky parallel universe simply waiting to be discovered." -by Pete14
Re: Writing out scores [Re: Tyrone Slothrop] #2821057
02/28/19 01:02 PM
02/28/19 01:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2018
Posts: 414
India
Tech-key Offline
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Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Originally Posted by Qazsedcft
Writing out, no, but it might be a good idea to play each part using only your two index fingers. The point is to disconnect from the muscle memory and consciously know which notes you're playing.

Wow. No way! I would be afraid of forming a bad muscle memory! I am working hard to fix one note error on piece I mislearned recently but that darn muscle memory betrays me!

If you feel really adventurous some day, and want to test your muscle memory (I'm sure other kinds of memory must be involved too).. try playing a memorised piece with the DP switched off. I've tried a few times, and it's scary as h**l laugh


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