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Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2820208
02/26/19 05:55 AM
02/26/19 05:55 AM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 749
Austria, EU
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lophiomys Offline
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That special MIDI file could be this one,
The DPBSD Project
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1365103.html

Besides,
recording to USB also rules out the internal (analog) audio chain to LINE OUT and Headphone out.

I think it is a case for a pro technician to look at not the customer to try out various things.

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Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: lophiomys] #2820212
02/26/19 06:29 AM
02/26/19 06:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 46
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dhts Offline
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Originally Posted by lophiomys

That special MIDI file could be this one,
The DPBSD Project
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/1365103.html

I was just trying to keep it simple, it appears a sequence of 5 notes illustrates the problem.
Originally Posted by lophiomys

Besides,
recording to USB also rules out the internal (analog) audio chain to LINE OUT and Headphone out.

That's a good point so to rule out all elements of the piano it should be audio I guess.
Originally Posted by lophiomys

I think it is a case for a pro technician to look at not the customer to try out various things.

I'm one for being proactive and trying to solve problems. A tech has reported no fault found which the store are quite reasonably accepting. I can see it from both sides.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2820232
02/26/19 08:10 AM
02/26/19 08:10 AM
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Posts: 494
Sheffield, UK
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I appreciate that James doesn't have to be here, and that a manufacturer has no obligation to help in the way that James does.

What doesn't help James' case is to devalue or dismiss the experience of customers. This is especially bad when the customer is already receiving that same treatment from the retailer.


Learning Mendelssohn Song without Words Op. 19 No. 2, Schumann Bunte Blätter Stücklein Op. 99 No. 1. Jensen Sehnsucht Op. 8 No. 5. Schumann Kinderszenen Op15 No1, Von Fremden Ländern und Menschen.
Digital piano: Casio Celviano AP-470. Headphones: Superlux HD681 EVO
Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2820252
02/26/19 09:26 AM
02/26/19 09:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 43
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Blue72 Offline OP
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The retailer is ultimately responsible, as that's who I have the contract with. This doesn't mean that Kawai have been blameless. They have known about this for almost 4 weeks, and it was Kawai who sent the piano technician under the warranty. The original advice from Kawai was this could be fixed by the virtual technician. Their technician then diagnosed it as "normal" after I played him one scale and within 5 minutes of entering my house. No other tests were conducted on the piano.

The reason I'm reluctant to do any tests, midi, or the secret test that James suggested, is because none of the results will change what I can hear with own 2 ears. The technical reason why this is happening isn't really a concern of mine, as it's clearly not a quick fix, and Kawai's technician doesn't even see any issue.

I'm basically done with this piano, done with Kawai, and done with this retailer. It's going back to the store, even if I have to chop it into small pieces and post it back in instalments.

The worst thing about it all, is I have literally had no playable piano for almost 5 weeks, and im over £2k down. All this and the retailer is currently ignoring my PayPal messages through the dispute system. I can escalate the dispute to a claim if they don't reply shortly, and I've also reported both Kawai and the retailer to UK trading standards.

To the guy that said James was showing lots of patience. I couldn't care less if James never posts in the thread again. No offence to the guy, but he's been as useful as a chocolate teapot. I never asked for his advice, or even mentioned Kawai in my original post. I wanted neutral unbiased opinions, which with the greatest of respect, he is not capable of providing. If anything, he's made the whole thing more infuriating.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: dhts] #2820254
02/26/19 09:31 AM
02/26/19 09:31 AM
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Posts: 56
Warsaw
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Originally Posted by dhts
I hate stuff like this. You buy what you think is going to be great and then something's starts niggling away at you.

How about this. I assume the CA78 can play midi files from USB ?

Some kind person on the forum with a CA78 (or the store) produces the simple scale midi file or anything else Blue72 wants to highlight. The kind CA78 owner records it playing and sends the midi file to Blue72 who does the same.

If they sound different the issue is with his piano and I find it hard to believe the store wouldn't address it in this case.

Whilst I get Blue72's frustration and reluctance to try to diagnose the problem any further it feels like a little bit of effort might bring the end game closer.

If the recording can be done via USB to rule out the room all the better.


Maybe that step of using external midi file can be avoided. CA78 features quite a few prerecored practice pieces including all the scales. I don't believe they are stored as recording of samples, I suspect they are rather midi sequences (you can manipulate tempo, left right balance, etc).
I used that to test some resonance issues that were triggered by some frequences and effect was reproducable using those demo pieces.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2820263
02/26/19 09:58 AM
02/26/19 09:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 8,592
Raleigh, North Carolina
MacMacMac Offline
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Wow, this is confusing.

1. I hear Kawai James being dismissed. So angels in heaven be damned? What's next? frown

2. I hear the OP claiming that the dealer has responsibility. I don't know whether that's true in his locale, but over here the dealer has none such. Any dealer involvement is a courtesy, and good business practice. But it's not an obligation.

I understand the frustration of spending a bundle and getting a problematic product. But I wouldn't expect a solution from Piano World. No one here made the sale, nor warranted the product.
Maybe the dealer can help, but I'd expect Kawai to deal with this.
I'm at a loss to see how anyone here can do any more for you, Blue-meister.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: MacMacMac] #2820282
02/26/19 11:04 AM
02/26/19 11:04 AM
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Blue72 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
Wow, this is confusing.

1. I hear Kawai James being dismissed. So angels in heaven be damned? What's next? frown

2. I hear the OP claiming that the dealer has responsibility. I don't know whether that's true in his locale, but over here the dealer has none such. Any dealer involvement is a courtesy, and good business practice. But it's not an obligation.

I understand the frustration of spending a bundle and getting a problematic product. But I wouldn't expect a solution from Piano World. No one here made the sale, nor warranted the product.
Maybe the dealer can help, but I'd expect Kawai to deal with this.
I'm at a loss to see how anyone here can do any more for you, Blue-meister.


Perhaps I'm being a tad harsh on James, but he's not really helping imo.

The retailer is 100% liable for any issues especially this early in the contract. They try bat it back and forth with the manufacturer, but it's ultimately down to them to sort it out. The retailer must first sort my issue out, then take it up with Kawai. That's the theory anyway. The nature of the law makes it somewhat understandable why neither of them want to admit a fault. The first to admit the fault will have to pay the delivery fee basically. If the retailer admits they can see/hear a fault, they would have to pay for return delivery and then try claim from Kawai. I can see why they don't fancy this route, all things considered.

I'm not expecting a solution from the forum, nor have I asked for one. All I wanted was an opinion on the sound/issue, which I got. People have kindy offered opinions, possile solutions and remedies, so it would be rude of me not to keep them updated. It may or may not interest some people how it all plays out. I'm kinda curious myself tbh.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2820287
02/26/19 11:15 AM
02/26/19 11:15 AM
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I doubt very much whether it's a game of chicken between the retailer and Kawai, more I suspect that neither believes there is a fault, and Blue72 thinks there is. I for one was trying to suggest what I thought might be a relatively simple way to prove it one way or another, and being new to this super helpful forum I disagree slightly with MacMacMac that I think the forum could help if not solve it, but at least provide some concrete ammunition for Blue72 to enable him to.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2820294
02/26/19 11:23 AM
02/26/19 11:23 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 15,258
Hamamatsu, Japan
Kawai James Offline
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Hello Blue72,

Originally Posted by Blue72
I'm basically done with this piano, done with Kawai, and done with this retailer. It's going back to the store


It’s unfortunate that we didn’t manage to get to the bottom of this strange issue, but oh well, you can’t win them all.

May I wish you the best of luck with your next piano.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2820313
02/26/19 12:31 PM
02/26/19 12:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,445
UK
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Alexander Borro Offline
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Blue67, It's a shame you couldn't work it out. It's a great instrument. That being said, I also would find it infuriating if anyone told me that G4 is okay, that is not right coming from a retailer, or a Kawai technician, that's simply bad form, in this case somebody is telling you porkies based on that recording at least.

The place I bought mine has high standards, you would never find a display unit with an issue like that. When I purchased mine, the retailer assembled the instrument onsite , tested it, then had it delivered by their own staff and carried upstairs to ensure no damage by third parties, all at the standard price you see at Bonners and other places, but with better service, no third parties doing the delivery.

Also, I was well aware of what arrangements would be made by the retailer in the event there would be an issue, and what would/should happen, no silly games of ping pong. I did my homework on that.

btw, I tried several display units in the past, CA67 and up over the years in store before buying mine, I never came across a case of a note standing out so much on a single key as yours.

Ultimately, I think you could have gotten this resolved with bit of push 'n' shove ( if you had a retailer in your side, but even without that). Kawai support do listen, but you may need to prod a bit more.

For any future buyers, saving a hundred here or there to get he cheapest deal isn't worth it IMO, rather, find a good dealer, get to know them and take it from there, that helps.

I had an issue I'll not bore you with, which to be fair wasn't the piano, but to do with MIDI, but that wasn't clear straight away. The dealer was on my side all the way, If I had really wanted to they would have taken it back for exchange of something else ( and soak up the cost) they just wanted me to be happy and be a satisfied costumer. that's service. What you got isn't, seems to me at least, as far as I can see based on what has been written.

Good luck smile


Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2820318
02/26/19 12:36 PM
02/26/19 12:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 885
Finland
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clothearednincompo Offline
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"For what it's worth", as usual...

Opinions?

Obviously that one note is louder than the others in the sound samples provided.

I don't hear school bells, church bells, Tubular Bells or Division Bells. Or bongo drums.

The very last single note in the "Ringy Joel and scale/arpeggio/chords" sound sample has some sort of "wobbliness" in it. But the more I repeat it, the more it just sounds like a piano and I stop noticing anything weird.

It may be a property of the actual Kawai grand. Maybe that's just how the sounds travels inside the piano. (Transmission through a solid medium like the sound board and the cast iron frame, projection through the air, all those combined...)

Advice?

Focus on the velocity issue of that one key. It'll be hard to convince anyone of any other kind of problem. And try to cancel the deal instead of accepting a replacement unit or repair as apparently you won't enjoy that specific Kawai model or it's siblings.

Maybe try to measure the MIDI velocity e.g. by installing a demo version of Pianoteq. It has a view that shows the incoming MIDI data. That would prove the sensor issue.

And then have a look at the modelled Rolands as they are more "SuperNatural" and less natural with real-life flaws included.

If any of this makes any sense. smile

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: clothearednincompo] #2820324
02/26/19 12:56 PM
02/26/19 12:56 PM
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 465
UK
jamiecw Online content
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Originally Posted by clothearednincompo

I don't hear school bells, church bells, Tubular Bells or Division Bells. Or bongo drums.


What a thread...having read it all, I think there may be a good reason why some hear differently aside from the biological differences in each person...when I first read this thread on an iPhone X I could hear that bell-like sound (of course is not a bell but reminiscent of one) sticking out like a sore thumb and once your ear captures it is so grotesque however I tried to recapture it using my headphones on my laptop and it's so subtle is barely there (most likely to the coloration of the headset?). The iPhone speakers is by default treble(-ish) so they attenuate that bell sound which is probably what the OP can hear...

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Alexander Borro] #2820335
02/26/19 01:19 PM
02/26/19 01:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 43
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Blue72 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Blue67, It's a shame you couldn't work it out. It's a great instrument. That being said, I also would find it infuriating if anyone told me that G4 is okay, that is not right coming from a retailer, or a Kawai technician, that's simply bad form, in this case somebody is telling you porkies based on that recording at least.

The place I bought mine has high standards, you would never find a display unit with an issue like that. When I purchased mine, the retailer assembled the instrument onsite , tested it, then had it delivered by their own staff and carried upstairs to ensure no damage by third parties, all at the standard price you see at Bonners and other places, but with better service, no third parties doing the delivery.

Also, I was well aware of what arrangements would be made by the retailer in the event there would be an issue, and what would/should happen, no silly games of ping pong. I did my homework on that.

btw, I tried several display units in the past, CA67 and up over the years in store before buying mine, I never came across a case of a note standing out so much on a single key as yours.

Ultimately, I think you could have gotten this resolved with bit of push 'n' shove ( if you had a retailer in your side, but even without that). Kawai support do listen, but you may need to prod a bit more.

For any future buyers, saving a hundred here or there to get he cheapest deal isn't worth it IMO, rather, find a good dealer, get to know them and take it from there, that helps.

I had an issue I'll not bore you with, which to be fair wasn't the piano, but to do with MIDI, but that wasn't clear straight away. The dealer was on my side all the way, If I had really wanted to they would have taken it back for exchange of something else ( and soak up the cost) they just wanted me to be happy and be a satisfied costumer. that's service. What you got isn't, seems to me at least, as far as I can see based on what has been written.

Good luck smile


Hey Alexander,

You're right, it's a perfectly decent digital piano, and I would be over the moon with it, if not for that G. I even find the piano samples decent and enjoyable. I'm not some picky audiophile that can hear a slight defect. The recordings I've made honestly don't do it justice. Can't argue with what you say about the price and finding a decent retailer.

In other related news here's a reply I got from the retailer today:


"As discussed the product arrived with you in perfect condition, but you thought the item may have a fault with some of the sound created by some of the notes. We communicated with you and arranged for the manufacturer KAWAI to send an engineer to the product to evaluate if the item was faulty. Following the recent evaluation, you have been informed that the product has no faults of any kind. We have emailed you a copy of the report as requested".

Here is a screenshot of the piano engineers "report". I only edited out personal information.

Piano engineers report


I have no clue how he knew the" velocity sensitivity" was correct, unless you can tell this by ear?

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2820343
02/26/19 01:34 PM
02/26/19 01:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2016
Posts: 124
similar Offline
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Originally Posted by Blue72

In other related news here's a reply I got from the retailer today:


"As discussed the product arrived with you in perfect condition, but you thought the item may have a fault with some of the sound created by some of the notes. We communicated with you and arranged for the manufacturer KAWAI to send an engineer to the product to evaluate if the item was faulty. Following the recent evaluation, you have been informed that the product has no faults of any kind. We have emailed you a copy of the report as requested".

Here is a screenshot of the piano engineers "report". I only edited out personal information.

Piano engineers report


I have no clue how he knew the" velocity sensitivity" was correct, unless you can tell this by ear?

Well that is infuriating.

It's a shame when someone in a big company decides that one little customer is not worth treating fairly and is simply shut out and ripped off, leaning on the fact that they typically have much less power or ability to rile up any other customers.

I think you should call up Kawai again, report the previous technician for incompetence, and request another.

But then, if you're really over dealing with Kawai further, so be it. I hope you find justice in the courts.


Beethoven, Bach -> Kawai CA-97 -> Garritan CFX Full -> Neumann Klein and Hummel 310s
Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2820348
02/26/19 01:45 PM
02/26/19 01:45 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,445
UK
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Alexander Borro Offline
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UK
Blue72, that reply is your typical corporate sheet of paper I wish to wipe my ^^%$ with.

There is just no way if the velocity was correct and the key is behaving accordingly ( however he concluded that) the G4 would sound with that huge difference in timbre and volume a the same velocity. The Technician should know well enough if he tried that on another unit that would not be the case. Let him try to explain his way out of that one smile

I sincerely hope he is not a Kawai certified technician, if he is he should be be given a thorough talking to, and get his ears checked.

This shouldn't even be a debate. If the velocity sensing is working okay there is clearly something else wrong. Shame on him !!

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 02/26/19 01:46 PM.

Selftaught since June 2014.
Books: Barratt classic piano course bk 1,2,3. Humphries Piano handbook, various...
Kawai CA78, Casio AP450 & software pianos.
[Linked Image] 12x ABF recitals.
My struggles: https://soundcloud.com/alexander-borro
Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: similar] #2820355
02/26/19 02:16 PM
02/26/19 02:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 43
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Blue72 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by similar
Originally Posted by Blue72

In other related news here's a reply I got from the retailer today:


"As discussed the product arrived with you in perfect condition, but you thought the item may have a fault with some of the sound created by some of the notes. We communicated with you and arranged for the manufacturer KAWAI to send an engineer to the product to evaluate if the item was faulty. Following the recent evaluation, you have been informed that the product has no faults of any kind. We have emailed you a copy of the report as requested".

Here is a screenshot of the piano engineers "report". I only edited out personal information.

Piano engineers report


I have no clue how he knew the" velocity sensitivity" was correct, unless you can tell this by ear?

Well that is infuriating.

It's a shame when someone in a big company decides that one little customer is not worth treating fairly and is simply shut out and ripped off, leaning on the fact that they typically have much less power or ability to rile up any other customers.

I think you should call up Kawai again, report the previous technician for incompetence, and request another.

But then, if you're really over dealing with Kawai further, so be it. I hope you find justice in the courts.


Hi similar,

I've not actually had any direct contact with Kawai yet, although they have been heavily involved. That piano report is mind boggling, considering what actually happened on the day. I'll probably contact Kawai directly tomorrow, and get their definitive take on it all. Just for clarity, the technician was from a 3rd party company. Not even sure if Kawai have their own technicians in the UK. He travelled over 500 miles(return trip) just to write that nonsense.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Alexander Borro] #2820358
02/26/19 02:26 PM
02/26/19 02:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2019
Posts: 43
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Blue72 Offline OP
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Blue72  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
Blue72, that reply is your typical corporate sheet of paper I wish to wipe my ^^%$ with.

There is just no way if the velocity was correct and the key is behaving accordingly ( however he concluded that) the G4 would sound with that huge difference in timbre and volume a the same velocity. The Technician should know well enough if he tried that on another unit that would not be the case. Let him try to explain his way out of that one smile

I sincerely hope he is not a Kawai certified technician, if he is he should be be given a thorough talking to, and get his ears checked.

This shouldn't even be a debate. If the velocity sensing is working okay there is clearly something else wrong. Shame on him !!


Hey, just to clarify, he was a 3rd party technician for some piano repair company. I've met plenty of technicians before and they all have a genuine interest in pianos and their customers being happy. He gave more of sales rep vibe, and looked like he'd never played a piano before, which is odd for a technician.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2820359
02/26/19 02:27 PM
02/26/19 02:27 PM
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Posts: 4,545
Pennsylvania
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dmd Offline
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Pennsylvania
I have been following this thread for a bit now.

I think most would agree that this "horse" is dead and maybe the beating can end.

Lessons learned ?

#1 - Purchasing a musical instrument without playing it first is a bad idea.

#2 - Having a HEAVY musical instrument SHIPPED to you might be a bad idea.

#3 - If you are unhappy with the quality of the instrument and the "response" you get is not what you had hoped for ….

Do not spend valuable practice/living time trying to WIN THE ARGUMENT with whomever …. Just RETURN IT.

You may have to take a financial hit that you are unhappy with …. that is part of lesson #2..... Take the hit and go on with your life.

With these lessons learned, life promises to be less filled with disappointment and frustration.


Don

Kawai MP11SE, Edifier R1850DB Active Bookshelf Speakers, Yamaha HS8S Powered Subwoofer, SennHeiser HD 559 Headphones, Pianoteq and numerous other VSTs
Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2820360
02/26/19 02:29 PM
02/26/19 02:29 PM
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dhts Offline
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To Blue72. I feel like a moth being draw back to a light, but having listened again to twangy Bill Joel I really would like to see this sorted for you.

Have you seen this:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2388726/my-kawai-ca95-warranty-resolution.html

Spookily it's the same note:
http://download1650.mediafire.com/8lup5nwassyg/v21c4p9s1nu88ha/G3_Being_Played.MOV

If I read the post correctly it was traced to an amplification problem.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: dhts] #2820366
02/26/19 02:50 PM
02/26/19 02:50 PM
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Posts: 43
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Blue72 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by dhts
To Blue72. I feel like a moth being draw back to a light, but having listened again to twangy Bill Joel I really would like to see this sorted for you.

Have you seen this:
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2388726/my-kawai-ca95-warranty-resolution.html

Spookily it's the same note:
http://download1650.mediafire.com/8lup5nwassyg/v21c4p9s1nu88ha/G3_Being_Played.MOV

If I read the post correctly it was traced to an amplification problem.


Hey dhts,

Yes, another poster linked me to that thread or one very similar. I'm 99% sure that Kawai know that theres some issue with some of their pianos. If I recall in those threads, it was only remedied with a replacement piano. I'm way past that stage of wanting another kawai tbh.

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