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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2820106 02/25/19 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
How are you playing the L hand in M12 (and 13)?

Are you playing the A-C (and F-A in M13) with 4-5 or 3-5?
- 4-5 is awkward, but frees up 1-2-3 for the next few notes
- 3-5 is more comfortable but makes the next few notes trickier -
- they can be played 1-1-2-1-2 or
- by pedaling and letting off the C (or A in 14)

I’ve tried it all 3 ways but haven’t committed yet.


I play 4-5 for A-C and 3-5 for F-A (although my edition has 4-5 for both).

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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: dumka1] #2820112 02/25/19 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dumka1
Originally Posted by cmb13
How are you playing the L hand in M12 (and 13)?

Are you playing the A-C (and F-A in M13) with 4-5 or 3-5?
- 4-5 is awkward, but frees up 1-2-3 for the next few notes
- 3-5 is more comfortable but makes the next few notes trickier -
- they can be played 1-1-2-1-2 or
- by pedaling and letting off the C (or A in 14)

I’ve tried it all 3 ways but haven’t committed yet.


I play 4-5 for A-C and 3-5 for F-A (although my edition has 4-5 for both).

Huh, interesting bc I see them as so similar, that you take them differently.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2820114 02/25/19 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Originally Posted by dumka1
Originally Posted by cmb13
How are you playing the L hand in M12 (and 13)?

Are you playing the A-C (and F-A in M13) with 4-5 or 3-5?
- 4-5 is awkward, but frees up 1-2-3 for the next few notes
- 3-5 is more comfortable but makes the next few notes trickier -
- they can be played 1-1-2-1-2 or
- by pedaling and letting off the C (or A in 14)

I’ve tried it all 3 ways but haven’t committed yet.


I play 4-5 for A-C and 3-5 for F-A (although my edition has 4-5 for both).

Huh, interesting bc I see them as so similar, that you take them differently.


It wasn't a conscious choice--as Ellen said, I did whatever felt more comfortable, especially in terms of which notes I need to stretch for while holding those two.

Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821433 03/01/19 10:12 AM
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I've decided to stick to 4-5 on both of those passages.

I'm through most of the first two pages. One thing that's nice is that there are repeated measures, so this speeds up learning / practice considerably.

I'm wondering how to handle M30, 31 (exact duplicates). There is G-Bb tied in the L hand, and an E in between. Interestingly, the stem for the E points up. I'm wondering, should that also be played with the L hand as well? With the L hand, I can actually reach from the G to Bb, which surprised me. Adding the E is possible but tricky.

If played with the the R hand, the E-D reach is easy, but then the G-F#-A coming next gets tricky. I suspect it should all be L hand (G-E-Bb) and the stem change is just to reflect either a different voice, or the fact that the E is tied to the first E of the triplet on beat 3.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821443 03/01/19 10:43 AM
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I take the Bb with my RH but play the E with my LH. That way I can hold both the Bb and D for 2.5 beats while I play the upper notes (G F# A G). I then take the A also with my RH, shift my 5th finger in the LH to the lower A and hold while playing those notes (E E D# F E) with my LH.



Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821565 03/01/19 02:49 PM
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I followed my teacher's recommendation to play the G E Bflat chord as an arpeggio by LH connected by pedaling (I have to release the G but I hold the E and the B flat, and the pedal takes care of the G, although not throughout, since I have to adjust the pedaling to the seconds in the RH to avoid a blur). We looked at the option of distributing the notes between the LH and RH, if I recall correctly, but setlled on the arpeggio. Again, there's no one perfect solution here, it seems--whatever works better for the individual player.

Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821668 03/01/19 07:02 PM
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I had a play with the score.



I think there are a lot of challenges with it that make it harder than it looks. I think it needs a teacher to go through it.

Even at the start you need to hold the notes for full value. The first bar you must for example hold the chords through the 2nd and 4th beats. This is repeated throughout and provides added difficulty.

The other difficulty is you have to play the accompany chords much quiter than the tune. this is challenging when the tune is quiet.

To maintain the legato in the passages is also a challenge. You need to be very strict with the fingers. You have to do finger changes (e.g. bar 1 45). Bar 7 you need to legato the run which means you have to play 1,4, 3 on the grace notes. I therefore would go through with your teacher and make sure you learn it correct to start with.

I actually found the off beats nature of the piece really off putting. It was a lot harder from there. I think it is a challenging piece and harder than it looks. Would be interested to see how you do. Good luck !

Last edited by Moo :); 03/01/19 07:05 PM.
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: Moo :)] #2821679 03/01/19 07:24 PM
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[quote=Moo :)]I had a play with the score.



Even at the start you need to hold the notes for full value. The first bar you must for example hold the chords through the 2nd and 4th beats. This is repeated throughout and provides added difficulty. Although most would hold those chords, you don't have to hold the first one because it will be held in the pedal.

The other difficulty is you have to play the accompany chords much quiter than the tune. this is challenging when the tune is quiet. Yes, but remember that the p marking does not mean everything has to be played p. One could/should play the melody mp and the chords pp (or mf and p).

Bar 7 you need to legato the run which means you have to play 1,4, 3 on the grace notes. You could play 1, 3, 1.`

Last edited by pianoloverus; 03/01/19 07:26 PM.
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821688 03/01/19 07:55 PM
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1,3,1 - yes I like that, excellent suggestion.

Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821706 03/01/19 09:03 PM
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I just use 1-2-1 I believe although I’m not at the piano right now. I think you’re overstating the difficulty, Moo, with slow practice you can get the balance and fingering issues down in a few weeks.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821787 03/02/19 04:29 AM
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A lot of challenges? Not if you've played piano before.

Holding notes for their full value? Playing softer for left hand accompaniment? Strict fingering? These are elementary, "my first piece" things. Finger substitution isn't uncommon once you start Bach's Little Preludes.

This piece wasn't offered as a new beginner's piece. My opening post notes that once you've reached the level of Bach Inventions this shouldn't be much of a challenge.

You might need a teacher if your teacher hasn't taught you how to learn (objective number one for a teacher) but this really isn't a difficult piece. If you've read through most of his Op. 39 and Op. 40, or reached a level at which you can, The Seasons collection would be your next step and this piece in particular is one of the easier ones.

Measure 7: I begin with 4, 3, 1, take the graces 2-3-2 using 1 on C#. Standard Bach stuff.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821872 03/02/19 10:50 AM
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M7 - I have been hitting 4-3-2 then 1-2-1 then 2-3-5 for GFE DEDC# DF.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821877 03/02/19 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by zrtf90
A lot of challenges? Not if you've played piano before.
I think you've forgotten how someone with just a few years of experience feels.

Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821879 03/02/19 11:09 AM
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Couple things my teacher pointed out that I had not realized - in case this helps anyone -

The grace notes and notes efE at the end of M8 are all timed as the final third of the 4th triplet. I was coming in too early.

The natural in M13 refers to the C. I assumed it was the B (bc the C should be natural but the B should be flat according to key signature) but he states it is to negate the C# of the previous measure. Of course I pointed out that accidentals are wiped at the end of a measure but he tells me it’s assistance from the editor in this case.

He’s allowing me slight rubato at the beginning of M15 to get from the g grace to the DGC chord, rather than start it just before the measure or take time from the measure. I guess I’ll get quicker w practice.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2821883 03/02/19 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
M7 - I have been hitting 4-3-2 then 1-2-1


I've been doing the same.

As for the difficulty of the piece, as I mentioned before, technically it's not a hard piece but musically it presents a number of challenges (which is also why it's such a pleasure to work on it, because one can focus primarily on expression and interpretation). At the university where I work (not in music :)), somebody just performed it, along with "June", as part of their artist diploma exam in piano, which is, from what I understand, the most advanced non-degree level in piano education.

My teacher was instrumental in helping me focus on some nuances which I would have surely missed (I realize there are different opinions on this forum about how necessary it is to work with a teacher). When I listen to my Slavic recital submission of "October," I'm finding so many things I'm doing differently now, with more forward movement and variety. I kept bringing the piece to my teacher throughout the fall--early winter, and every time there was something that could be improved. My point is, in other words, while it's very playable for a (late-ish) intermediate player, it's not easy overall.

Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2821887 03/02/19 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by cmb13
Couple things my teacher pointed out that I had not realized - in case this helps anyone -

The grace notes and notes efE at the end of M8 are all timed as the final third of the 4th triplet. I was coming in too early.

The natural in M13 refers to the C. I assumed it was the B (bc the C should be natural but the B should be flat according to key signature) but he states it is to negate the C# of the previous measure. Of course I pointed out that accidentals are wiped at the end of a measure but he tells me it’s assistance from the editor in this case.

I had the same problems when I started working on October last year. That natural totally threw me off.

Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: cmb13] #2821898 03/02/19 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cmb13

He’s allowing me slight rubato at the beginning of M15 to get from the g grace to the DGC chord, rather than start it just before the measure or take time from the measure. I guess I’ll get quicker w practice.


That sounds like a workable solution. I ended up taking the C with my right thumb. When I tried playing the chords that are preceded by a grace note all with my LH (M 15, 23,24,27,28) there was a gap which I thought interrupted the flow of the piece. So I am taking the upper note with my RH in those measures.

As far as how challenging the piece is, who cares. Yes, some people on this forum have more years of experience than others so for those, this piece is easy to learn. I do agree with Dumka1 that it takes skill, control and musicality to play this piece in such a way as to get a “wow” response from the listeners (or even your teacher).



Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821913 03/02/19 12:21 PM
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Ellen, you really make good use of the R thumb! Maybe I’ll give it a shot on these measures. I already changed to break M31 into L G-E and R Bb-D and it works very well! I’m using 5-2 on the L so I can go 2-3-1-2 on the E D# F E.

Dumka, I’m glad I (or shall I say my teacher) caught that early on!

And I totally agree, this piece can really sing! I’m working hard on expression with each measure. I’m glad Richard choose it. Great exercise in time, delicacy, musicality.


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Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821916 03/02/19 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by pianoloverus
Originally Posted by zrtf90
A lot of challenges? Not if you've played piano before.
I think you've forgotten how someone with just a few years of experience feels.

Originally Posted by cmb13
...I think you’re overstating the difficulty...
This is Craig's own response. His previous pieces include Liszt Consolation No. 3 and two Chopin Nocturnes (C# Minor and Op. 72/1). He also has a teacher who he's consulting with.

To provide some context, this was my OP.
Originally Posted by zrtf90
After the success, the interest and the insightful contributions to Craig's study group thread devoted to Chopin's little Nocturne, it was decided to have another collaborative endeavour, this time investigating Tchaikovsky's Autumn Song, the October entry from his Seasons, Op. 37.

The technical demands of the piece are not great. Typical of Tchaikovsky, there is a lot of counterpoint going on so if you haven't reached the level of Bach Inventions yet and the ability to handle two concurrent melodies you might find the piece more challenging.

And in that context all the difficulties mentioned might have been encountered in easier fare such as Grieg's Arietta, Op. 12/1, Mendelssohn's Andante Sostenuto, Op. 72/2, Bach's Prelude BWV 936, or Tchaikovsky's own Chanson Triste, Op. 40/2. All pieces of a lesser grade than we're looking at here and they would all benefit from greater expertise than we generally start them with.

You may have forgotten yourself how much enthusiasm we normally bring to new pieces when we only have limited experience and how much that helps us overcome the hurdles, without having all the pitfalls thrown before us.


Richard
Re: Tchaikovsky: October, Op. 37 - Study Group [Re: zrtf90] #2821923 03/02/19 12:34 PM
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Ellen, I tried what you suggested - it does shorten the gap. Not yet committed though. Question - do you then move off the chord to hit the following note (eg the E in M22) figuring there’s pedal anyway? Just curious.


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