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Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2818845 02/22/19 01:51 PM
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Thyrone,
that is not entirely correct in this context.

for the EU, and in general:
There is a warranty granted by law for 2 years for most goods, whereby only during the first 6 months the end customer does not need to proove anything regarding a claimed defect. The dealer has 3 attempts to repair on his own cost, before he is obliged to refund 100% or exchange the device (all on his own cost).

For online sales to end customers, there is a 14 days return right, without any reason needed. I am not sure who has to pay for the return.
There is also the real life problem, that free return vouchers are often limited to be valid only within national borders of countries inside the EU.

On top of that there could be the voluntary extended return guaranties by the (online) shop, or limited guaranties by the OEM.


Again, I recommend to Blue72, to discuss his case with a professional consumer protection organisation in his country, who would know exaclty what would be legally correct and a pragmatic path forward. They also are able to publish organised misbehaviour by cooperations in the media.


Last edited by lophiomys; 02/22/19 01:53 PM.
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2818847 02/22/19 01:55 PM
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I may have missed some thing in the thread I just skimmed over it. I have something similar with one key, one f# but is no where near a bad as yours so I can live with it, a slight tweak in note volume is fine, it begins to exhibit itself in the sort of mf and higher range more obviously, as if the velocity curve is slightly steeper for that one note.

Some VSTs I own have wider timbral range then the Kawai build in sounds, so I can test with that also, you can hear the more rapid jump in timbre too as you ramp up in dynamics, and it becomes more obvious, but I can anticipate it in playing fairly well, so it is okay.

Ideally it is something I might want looking at some point, but I live with it. All the other keys are fine or within tolerance I would say. I could also test this against my casio ap450 which doesn't exhibit this issue.

In any case, hearing your G4 is on another level altogether and totally unacceptable, don't let any tech tell you it is normal, it is not, that, quite frankly, is rubbish !!

I would still think it is a sensor issue, just that one key that needs tweaking.

Kawai CA series could really do with a key editor application, so velocity curves can be edited in detail on PC or MAC, but with the ability to have a curve for every note, then, one may well be able to edit out such inconsistencies. I believe this can be done with the VPC1.

Last edited by Alexander Borro; 02/22/19 01:59 PM.

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Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2818849 02/22/19 01:58 PM
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Blue72 - none of this surprises me. I had exactly the same kind of problems with the loud notes - transposing and so on. I would have taken a replacement but Kawai refused to admit there was a fault even though the dealer agreed with me. I lost a couple of hundred due to the Kawai not admitting any fault and the dealer taking it back but still having to sell it on used. Never found out what really happened to that particular instrument.

And James, just for the record (again), I was able to change the notes temporarily through the VT, but these changes didn't stick. I am computer literate and another reason for not keeping the piano was down to the software. There are other comments I could make about build quality but...


Roland LX7

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Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2818850 02/22/19 02:03 PM
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The transpose experiment proved that this is not a key/action/sensor problem. So it must be a defect in the samples.

One would have hoped that this far into the 21st century a high-end piano would sound good all on its own. But that seems a vain hope.

So the solution for 2019 might be the same as it was five and ten and fifteen years ago: use a virtual instrument.
Sad but true. frown

Re: Opinions/Advice?
MacMacMac #2818854 02/22/19 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MacMacMac
So the solution for 2019 might be the same as it was five and ten and fifteen years ago: use a virtual instrument.
Sad but true. frown

I agree! Bad samples are an OEM defect which I which OEMs wouldn't just try to wave their hands about it (it's not a bug, sounding like cr*p is a feature of this piano!) But until the OEMs take responsibility for the sound, there are always the virtual pianos whose OEMs live or die by their instruments!


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Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2818860 02/22/19 02:17 PM
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And just for the record whilst we are bashing Roland and Kawai for customer service, I spoke to my dealer this morning and he still has the dodgy NU1X which Yamaha say is ok. But as he says, every time he plays it he gets the loud note issue. As commented before, this piano also has some uneven keys so probably needs some kind of regulation. But Yamaha aren't interested.

Piano Forum readers - we need to protest!


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Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2818865 02/22/19 02:27 PM
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Can anyone comment on what kind of defects are covered under Kawai warranties for their digital pianos?

In my (five-year, US) warranty for my CA 97, all issues covered will be reimbursed up to labor and materials. Shipping to the manufacturer is not covered, but return shipping is. Also, they will attempt to perform service on location first, so that repairs possible at the instrument location should be completely free.

There are some explicitly mentioned issues that are not covered, and I quote:
a) damage, deterioration or malfunction resulting from accident, negligence, misuse, abuse, improper installation or operation or failure to follow instructions according to the Owner's Manual for this instrument; any shipping damage to the instrument (claims must be presented to the carrier); repair or attempted repair by anyone other than a Kawai or and authorized Kawai Service Provider;
(b) any unit any unit which has been altered or on which the serial number has been defaced, modified or removed;
(c) normal wear and tear or any periodic maintenance;
(d) deterioration due to perspiration, corrosive atmosphere or other external causes such as extremes in temperature or humidity;
(e) action noise caused by normal wear and tear;
(f) damages attributable to power line surge or related electrical abnormalities, lightning damage or acts of God; or
(g) RFI/EMI (Interference/noise) caused by improper grounding or the improper use of either certified or uncertified equipment, if applicable.

In other words, the OP's issues are not explicitly prohibited from coverage under my warranty, which I'm assuming is similar to the OP's, basically because the issue was almost surely not caused by shipping or some incident at the OP's location.

So what's the rub?


Beethoven, Bach -> Kawai CA-97 -> Garritan CFX Full -> Neumann Klein and Hummel 310s
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2819723 02/25/19 03:16 AM
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Hello Blue72,

Originally Posted by Blue72
I'm aware that you requested a usb recording of a song last week. I posted it, others commented on it, and you seemed to ignore it, for whatever reason. Perhaps you just missed the post, I don't know.


My apologies, I did miss your third recording. I've listened to it a few times, but cannot hear the "bell like" quality that you've referred to. However, I do hear that the G note is a little more prominent when you play the scale at the end of the piece.

Regarding the possibility of a corrupted/broken sample for the G note, it should be possible to either confirm or rule this out by using the "WAVE Checksum "check function in the instrument's factory check mode (the checksum number is the same for all CA98/CA78/NV10 instruments). If you would like to pursue this check, please send me a private message.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Kawai James #2819888 02/25/19 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Hello Blue72,

Originally Posted by Blue72
I'm aware that you requested a usb recording of a song last week. I posted it, others commented on it, and you seemed to ignore it, for whatever reason. Perhaps you just missed the post, I don't know.


My apologies, I did miss your third recording. I've listened to it a few times, but cannot hear the "bell like" quality that you've referred to. However, I do hear that the G note is a little more prominent when you play the scale at the end of the piece.

Regarding the possibility of a corrupted/broken sample for the G note, it should be possible to either confirm or rule this out by using the "WAVE Checksum "check function in the instrument's factory check mode (the checksum number is the same for all CA98/CA78/NV10 instruments). If you would like to pursue this check, please send me a private message.

Kind regards,
James
x


Hi James, I appreciate the offer, but I'm way past diagnosing the fault. Not sure why you can't post details of this mystery "WAVE Checksum" test in the thread. Why the need for privacy? Also, should this test not have been performed by the piano technician sent by Kawai?

I also note you haven't commented on all pianos having a "rogue note", and this being perfectly acceptable. You do however find time yet again to downplay the seriousness of this issue. "little more prominent"? Come on man. I've contacted both Roland and Yamaha for their views on all their piano products having "rogue notes".

I've now read previous threads on this issue on this very forum, and there you are downplaying other Kawai owners issues. Some guy had exactly the same issue as myself, with the exact same sample (Ex concert grand), four years ago. The way he described it was exactly what I'm going through right now. Baffling considering Kawai and their technicians have never heard of this problem and I'm the only person that's ever complained about it.

This isn't normal, or how a piano should sound. Anyone that's ever touched a piano or has functioning ears can hear it. Strangely enough, the only people that don't see an issue is, the retailer, a Kawai sales rep, a 3rd party shill/piano technician sent by Kawai, and your good self.

For anyone following this joke of a story, I opened a PayPal dispute on friday in which you can send the retailer a message, all monitored by PayPal. Surprisingly, no reply as yet.

Re: Opinions/Advice?
Alexander Borro #2819893 02/25/19 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Alexander Borro
I may have missed some thing in the thread I just skimmed over it. I have something similar with one key, one f# but is no where near a bad as yours so I can live with it, a slight tweak in note volume is fine, it begins to exhibit itself in the sort of mf and higher range more obviously, as if the velocity curve is slightly steeper for that one note.

Some VSTs I own have wider timbral range then the Kawai build in sounds, so I can test with that also, you can hear the more rapid jump in timbre too as you ramp up in dynamics, and it becomes more obvious, but I can anticipate it in playing fairly well, so it is okay.

Ideally it is something I might want looking at some point, but I live with it. All the other keys are fine or within tolerance I would say. I could also test this against my casio ap450 which doesn't exhibit this issue.

In any case, hearing your G4 is on another level altogether and totally unacceptable, don't let any tech tell you it is normal, it is not, that, quite frankly, is rubbish !!

I would still think it is a sensor issue, just that one key that needs tweaking.

Kawai CA series could really do with a key editor application, so velocity curves can be edited in detail on PC or MAC, but with the ability to have a curve for every note, then, one may well be able to edit out such inconsistencies. I believe this can be done with the VPC1.


I too have a few keys like you describe, that are just slightly louder, but it's tolerable and barely noticable. They are all clustered around the G4 though, so I assumed it's somehow connected. It varies with different voices too from what I've observed. Small discrepancies I can live with, but as you've heard, the G4 is on another level. Mine also shows up more as you get closer to mf and above.

Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2819909 02/25/19 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue72

Hi James, I appreciate the offer, but I'm way past diagnosing the fault. Not sure why you can't post details of this mystery "WAVE Checksum" test in the thread. Why the need for privacy? Also, should this test not have been performed by the piano technician sent by Kawai?

James is interested in diagnosing if there is an actual technical problem with your piano (corrupt sample memory) or if the problem lies somewhere else. The need for privacy is, so he doesn't lose his job for posting confidential company info to a public forum for all competitors to read.

Quote
I also note you haven't commented on all pianos having a "rogue note", and this being perfectly acceptable. You do however find time yet again to downplay the seriousness of this issue. "little more prominent"? Come on man. I've contacted both Roland and Yamaha for their views on all their piano products having "rogue notes".

Kawai's samples are unique per key, they are not smoothed/blended like elsewhere. That creates a more vivid image when multiple notes play together in chords at the cost of scales being a bit more uneven in characteristic. This nature also makes it harder to diagnose action or sample problems, even for technicians.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2819949 02/25/19 05:11 PM
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By this point in time in the sorry affair, James's suggestion is no longer appropriate and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the frustration of the experience. If the suggestion had been made before the Kawai technician came to see Blue72 that would have been appropriate since Blue72 could have instructed the technician to test the wave checksum at that time. However if Kawai was truly interested in resolving this problem then the technician should have tested the wave checksum whilst he was visiting Blue72 without prompting. It shouldn't come days later as a further suggestion so that Blue72 just feels like he is being strung along.

It certainly feels like there is a cultural problem at Kawai where customers who have problems with their Kawai pianos have their experiences dismissed or diminished.

I was lucky, the model I purchased was relatively cheap, and I bought it from a retailer who promised a 30 day free returns and I returned it without having to prove any fault with the piano. I spent 3 hours in their showroom testing out many pianos that were on my list as a replacement, including the same Kawai model and the next one up. In the end I purchased a model not on my list and paid about £100 more than I could have if I had bought elsewhere.

If I had spent the considerable amount of money that a CA-78 costs and then be treated this way I would be angry. After my own experience I would have warily considered a Kawai piano in the future as an upgrade. After seeing this episode and seeing others having their experience downplayed, unless I hear that Kawai have changed their attitude in how they treat customer complaints I will not consider a Kawai piano. It is too big a risk.

Kevin

Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2820037 02/25/19 07:46 PM
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@KevinM Technically the retailer is in charge for sorting everything out. And the retailer is in fact the one providing the unpleasant experience in Blue72's case. Your retailer was more cooperative and lead you to a more comfortable solution.

A manufacturer concerning himself with end customer issues is nice, but in fact fully optional. They only have to report to their distributors and wholesalers - the guys who pay them money directly for purchasing their pianos by truckloads. Everything else is brand management.


Yamaha P-515 | Kawai ES100 | Steinberg UR22 | Sony MDR-7506
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2820041 02/25/19 07:50 PM
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Joe, that may be the case in Europe. But here in the States the dealer's participation is negligible. In my case the only thing the dealer ever did for me was provide the name and phone number of a local Yamaha-authorized repair shop. Nothing more.

Piano retailers here are (generally) not repair shops.

Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2820054 02/25/19 08:15 PM
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Hello Blue72, thank you for your reply.

Originally Posted by Blue72
I appreciate the offer, but I'm way past diagnosing the fault. Not sure why you can't post details of this mystery "WAVE Checksum" test in the thread. Why the need for privacy?


Because the procedure to enter the Factory Check mode is not something that can be publicly disclosed - i.e. it's not written in the owner's manual. However, in this case, I believed checking the wave checksum may help us to understand if there is an objectively measurable problem with your instrument. If the checksum number is incorrect (i.e. different to all other CA98/CA78/NV10 instruments) it confirms that there is a problem with the sound samples in your instrument.

Originally Posted by Blue72
Also, should this test not have been performed by the piano technician sent by Kawai?


Yes, this would have been useful, but it's quite a specific test, and one that's typically only used in the factory or by members of R&D during development, so it's possible that the technician was not aware of this function. In fairness to the tech, I only thought about this idea yesterday after discussing the factory check menu with a colleague in R&D.

Originally Posted by Blue72
I also note you haven't commented on all pianos having a "rogue note", and this being perfectly acceptable.


I wouldn't necessarily use that language, but it's certainly possible for some notes on an acoustic piano to stand out more than others, or to have a different tonal character to neighbouring notes. I recall some criticisms of the SK-5 sample set (also in your CA78) in the past, whereby there was a difference in tone between two neighbouring notes. However, a piano technician demoinstrated to me that this change occurs at the treble/bass break point of the actual acoustic SK-5 piano, so is just a characteristic of the instrument captured by sampling. I'm not suggesting that this is the same reason for the louder G4 note in your scale recordings, however I wished to demonstrate that acoustic pianos can have tonal variations at different points along the keyboard.

Originally Posted by Blue72
You do however find time yet again to downplay the seriousness of this issue. "little more prominent"? Come on man.


I'm just telling you what I hear.

Originally Posted by Blue72
I've now read previous threads on this issue on this very forum, and there you are downplaying other Kawai owners issues. Some guy had exactly the same issue as myself, with the exact same sample (Ex concert grand), four years ago. The way he described it was exactly what I'm going through right now.


Yes, I recall that McBuster experienced an issue with his CA63 (?), whereby he found one note to have a different tonal character to other notes. The CA63 is a few generations older than your CA78, and I don't believe the EX Concert Grand sample sets used by the two instruments are the same. However, even if they are, the CA78 also includes SK-EX Concert Grand, SK-5 Grand, and other grand piano sample sets that are completely different to the EX Concert Grand sample set. Does this issue that you hear occur with these sounds also?

Originally Posted by Blue72
This isn't normal, or how a piano should sound. Anyone that's ever touched a piano or has functioning ears can hear it. Strangely enough, the only people that don't see an issue is, the retailer, a Kawai sales rep, a 3rd party shill/piano technician sent by Kawai, and your good self.


I'm afraid I cannot speak for anyone else, as I don't have their ears. Through my own ears, I do not hear a "bell like" character in your recordings, however I can hear that the G4 note in your scale recording is louder than the other notes. As noted previously, I initially thought that this may be due to a key sensor problem, however your own experiment of using the Transpose function to shift the sample to other keys appears to demonstrate that this is not the case.

Sometimes we experience notes resonating at the same frequency as other objects in the room, resulting in a louder/more pronounced sound. However, this only occurs when using the instrument's built-in speakers, and as you also hear this issue through headphones, that's obviously not the cause either.

Finally, it's possible that a G4 sample (or all of the different G4 samples?) is stored in your instrument incorrectly, or has become corrupted in some way. I find the chances of this happening rather unlikely, as it's not something that I have ever experienced in the past, however the "WAVE Checksum" check (suggested in my previous post) accessible via the Factory Check menu would allow this possible cause to be confirmed.

I hope this helps.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2820057 02/25/19 08:27 PM
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Kudos to your patience, James. thumb


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Re: Opinions/Advice?
KevinM #2820065 02/25/19 08:49 PM
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Hello Kevin,

Originally Posted by KevinM
James's suggestion is no longer appropriate and demonstrates a lack of understanding of the frustration of the experience. If the suggestion had been made before the Kawai technician came to see Blue72 that would have been appropriate since Blue72 could have instructed the technician to test the wave checksum at that time. However if Kawai was truly interested in resolving this problem then the technician should have tested the wave checksum whilst he was visiting Blue72 without prompting. It shouldn't come days later as a further suggestion so that Blue72 just feels like he is being strung along.


I can understand why you might have that perception. However, the reality is that I initially expected the louder G4 note in Blue72's scale recording to be caused by a defective key sensor, and not related to a potential defective sample. I also overlooked (until yesterday) the possibility of checking the instrument's sample data integrity using the WAVE Checksum feature, as it's not a commonly used function.

Originally Posted by KevinM
It certainly feels like there is a cultural problem at Kawai where customers who have problems with their Kawai pianos have their experiences dismissed or diminished.


I don't believe this is accurate. If there is an objective issue with an instrument, the retailer and/or Kawai subsidiary/distributor will make every effort to resolve the problem. However, some cases are more complicated - sometimes a customer may experience an issue that cannot be reproduced by the technician, retailer, distributor etc., so the path to resolution is less straight-forward. Buying online also complicates matters further. I recall a thread on another forum discussing a large US musical instrument retailer's return policy, and whether or not "free shipping" should also include the cost of returning the instrument for any reason.

Kind regards,
James
x


Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 & occasional rare groove player.

"I agree that the User Manual is very good." - arc7urus, March 2019
Re: Opinions/Advice?
Kawai James #2820195 02/26/19 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Kawai James

However, some cases are more complicated - sometimes a customer may experience an issue that cannot be reproduced by the technician, retailer, distributor etc., so the path to resolution is less straight-forward.

Kind regards,
James
x

I may not be the biggest fan of Kawai but I certainly back James up on this one. Nothing is more frustrating and difficult to cope with than not being able to reproduce a computer fault. I could tell many tales of 'unbelievable' computer errors which have led even the experts to shake their heads in disbelief.


Roland LX7

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Re: Opinions/Advice?
Blue72 #2820203 02/26/19 05:28 AM
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Despite holding Kawai James in highest regard,
I am not so confident, that the local Kawai subsidiary/distributor does currently make every effort to resolve the problem.
Mayby they intenend to do in near future, after Kawai James gave them call ?

What we have seen so far is a more or less skilled technician visiting briefly and negating a documented problem, which I could hear on simple recording. Let's not forget, this is about a top of the range product by Kawai.

If that case would be complicated and would be seriously worked on,
... why not exchange the device and inspect it more thoroghly in the workshop?
... why not sending a second level support technician, who is aware of the internal checksum facilites ?
... why not offering the customer a digital piano of a different brand in exchange, in order to resolve the commotions quickly?

Nothing of this has so far happened, nor was offered to happen in due future (as reported by now).

Re: Opinions/Advice?
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I hate stuff like this. You buy what you think is going to be great and then something's starts niggling away at you.

How about this. I assume the CA78 can play midi files from USB ?

Some kind person on the forum with a CA78 (or the store) produces the simple scale midi file or anything else Blue72 wants to highlight. The kind CA78 owner records it playing and sends the midi file to Blue72 who does the same.

If they sound different the issue is with his piano and I find it hard to believe the store wouldn't address it in this case.

Whilst I get Blue72's frustration and reluctance to try to diagnose the problem any further it feels like a little bit of effort might bring the end game closer.

If the recording can be done via USB to rule out the room all the better.

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by The_What_Stage - 06/03/20 05:26 PM
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