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Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Kawai James] #2818708 02/22/19 08:19 AM
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Blue72 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Kawai James
Originally Posted by JoBert
I don't know if this has been suggested before, so please excuse me if it has been, but have you tried the piano in a different room, to make sure that it's not about the room acoustics?


That's a valid suggestion, and something that I had also considered. However, I believe the first recording (in which the G4 was louder) was captured using the instrument's USB Audio recorder, thus ruling out environment.

Originally Posted by JoBert
I guess the problem would then have to lie somewhere in the sound processing and amplification. Maybe there's a defect in one of the speakers, or amps, or DACs, or similar?


Similarly, these stages are bypassed when using the USB Audio recorder.

Blue72, I believe I may requested this previously, but can you upload another USB Audio recording of the sound that you believe demonstrates the G4 note issue, please? While unlikely, for the reasons mentioned by JoBert above, if there is an issue with the G4 samples, it should be audible in the recording. So far we have only heard a USB Audio recording of the scale in your first post, however you claim that the issue only manifests itself when playing in a musical context.

Kind regards,
James
x



James,

I'm aware that you requested a usb recording of a song last week. I posted it, others commented on it, and you seemed to ignore it, for whatever reason. Perhaps you just missed the post, I don't know. You know yourself that recordings dont always represent what is actually heard in real time, so not sure why you're taking this passive aggressive stance.

I don't really want to get involved in a tit for tat with you as you seem to take exception to any vaild criticisms of your company and/or it's products. At this moment in time, this piano is piece of **** to me, I would be less inclined to come online and say such things if your company lived up to it's responsibilities.

I have an audio recording of a piano technician, sent by Kawai, standing in my house telling me that all pianos have "what they call one rogue note, including Yamaha and Roland". I would love to hear your opinion on that. Do all digital pianos have a rogue note, or not?

Getting a refund has never been an issue, as I reported the fault within days of receiving this piano. Two national/multi national companies trying to screw over a customer is what I have an issue with.

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Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2818712 02/22/19 08:24 AM
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It is perfectly understandabel that the customer is getting angry, after he purchased a top of the range digtial piano, and is clearly not properly respected by the point of sales nor the OEM. Where is the customer care? A dissatified customer should be offered something in alternative by the music store, which would resolve the matter. I can relate to that from personal dire experience.
IIRC such a case with G4 has been reported before and only has been resolved by exchanging the device after going through a lenghty discussion.

I recommend to return the device immedeatly and start from scratch. The more helpful the music store will be, the more likely it is that he would make more business.

Last edited by lophiomys; 02/22/19 08:30 AM.
Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: JoBert] #2818714 02/22/19 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
I don't know if this has been suggested before, so please excuse me if it has been, but have you tried the piano in a different room, to make sure that it's not about the room acoustics?

I think a sensor problem as the reason has been ruled out (by the transpose experiment).

I also do not believe that it is a problem with the samples. First of all, as James said, why should all the piano samples, from all pianos, be affected, all at the G4? But none of the non-piano samples? This makes no sense. Also many other people have the same piano (or the same sound engine, myself included) and don't have this problem, so it can't be a general problem of the samples. It would have to be a specific problem of the samples of this piano. Since all of this is digital, I don't see how that can happen (that one piano gets different samples than all its siblings).

So it must be something else specific to your situation or your piano. That's why I suggested to rule out a room acoustics problem.

With that ruled out, I guess the problem would then have to lie somewhere in the sound processing and amplification. Maybe there's a defect in one of the speakers, or amps, or DACs, or similar?
I don't know if that was mentioned, but do you hear this same problem with a different piano of the same model (in the shop, or elsewhere)?


Hi JoeBert,

I'm no expert on these pianos and I'm just speculating like everyone else. Some of you obviously have more knowledge than me when it comes to the finer details. I'm only going by what my ears tell me, and they tell me something is amiss.

I haven't ever tried another of these pianos, as I bought it online and the nearest shop is nearly 100 miles away, but I'm seriously considering going to test a few just for my own sanity. I refuse to believe that every Kawai piano sounds like this, as I was told by this technician.

I play mostly on headphones so that kinda rules out any exterior acoustic issues.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2818721 02/22/19 08:38 AM
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Blue, did you ever try looking at the MIDI velocities on the key when you play?

One of the tests I suggested on another thread where someone had the same problem on a Yamaha was to use a single finger to span and press the G4 and F4 keys at the same time in order to achieve the same velocity. You can then see if the actual midi velocities sent are the similar, or markedly different.

And just to be clear, when you say you transposed the keyboard up and the sound followed it up, you mean you now play the same G4 tone on the G5 key, and that G4 is still loud. Whereas the g3 time played with the g4 key sounds normal?

This is an odd problem. It sounds clear in your recording but there isn't anything consistent to explain it. My guess is still that there's an easy explanation but you would have to be there in person to see/diagnose it (which is what the tech is supposed to do).

Last question from me: you've performed a factory reset, correct? Sorry if these are getting redundant.


Yamaha P-85, P-105, CP50, Kawai MP11 || Kawai NV-10
Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: lophiomys] #2818724 02/22/19 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
It is perfectly understandabel that the customer is getting angry, after he purchased a top of the range digtial piano, and is clearly not properly respected by the point of sales nor the OEM. Where is the customer care? A dissatified customer should be offered something in alternative by the music store, which would resolve the matter. I can relate to that from personal dire experience.
IIRC such a case with G4 has been reported before and only has been resolved by exchanging the device after going through a lenghty discussion.

I recommend to return the device immedeatly and start from scratch. The more helpful the music store will be, the more likely it is that he would make more business.


I had this very conversation with the retailer this morning. It's not just good customer service, they are flying very close to breaking the law, if they charge for return delivery on a faulty product, aside from losing my custom, as I still need to buy a piano. The entire thing is mind boggling.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Gombessa] #2818729 02/22/19 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Gombessa
Blue, did you ever try looking at the MIDI velocities on the key when you play?

One of the tests I suggested on another thread where someone had the same problem on a Yamaha was to use a single finger to span and press the G4 and F4 keys at the same time in order to achieve the same velocity. You can then see if the actual midi velocities sent are the similar, or markedly different.

And just to be clear, when you say you transposed the keyboard up and the sound followed it up, you mean you now play the same G4 tone on the G5 key, and that G4 is still loud. Whereas the g3 time played with the g4 key sounds normal?

This is an odd problem. It sounds clear in your recording but there isn't anything consistent to explain it. My guess is still that there's an easy explanation but you would have to be there in person to see/diagnose it (which is what the tech is supposed to do).

Last question from me: you've performed a factory reset, correct? Sorry if these are getting redundant.


Hi Gombessa,

I'm literally clueless when it comes to anything midi, even when I read about it or someone explains it to me. I thought that would be something that the tech could've/would've checked. When I transposed it up an octave, the bad note went to G5, and the original G4, now G3 was fine. In essence, the problem moved up an octave, so probably not a sensor/key issue? Hope I explained that well enough.

I've also done about a dozen factory resets, and messed with the virtual technician for hours.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2818734 02/22/19 09:01 AM
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If you should want to waste any more time on the issue,
here are some posts on this forum describing similar problems, which might give you a dejavu:

My Kawai CA95 Warranty Resolution, (Feb. 2015) .... regarding G4
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2388726/my-kawai-ca95-warranty-resolution.html

Re: Kawai MP11 sound issues [Re: JonW80]
http://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthre...kawai-mp11-sound-issues.html#Post2403845

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2818739 02/22/19 09:13 AM
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Having been through a similar experience as you @Blue72 which ended up with me deciding to return my piano. There was luckily a free returns policy with the one I bought. I did buy a different piano through the same dealer so perhaps they may have been more awkward about things if I had just asked for my money back. But as a result my experience did not leave a bad taste in my mouth, and I would not exclude the dealer or Kawai if/when I next upgrade.

You have tried a lot harder to resolve the issue with Kawai and the dealer without success than I did. From what you have reported it feels like they see you more as an awkward customer rather than someone wanting to resolve a problem with their product. If it was me at this point of time I would just wash my hands of the affair and research what alternative piano you want to buy.

Kevin

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2818743 02/22/19 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Blue72
...I'm literally clueless when it comes to anything midi, even when I read about it or someone explains it to me. I thought that would be something that the tech could've/would've checked. When I transposed it up an octave, the bad note went to G5, and the original G4, now G3 was fine. In essence, the problem moved up an octave, so probably not a sensor/key issue? Hope I explained that well enough.

I've also done about a dozen factory resets, and messed with the virtual technician for hours.

In that case it is probably not a sensor issue. Can you please have a listen at this? https://soundcloud.com/ac-635715790/e4-a4-pp-mf-ff/s-ybtBs This is E4-A4 played with three different velocities and recorded directly to USB on my CA98.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2818748 02/22/19 09:39 AM
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Thank you for addressing my questions.

Originally Posted by Blue72
I'm no expert on these pianos and I'm just speculating like everyone else. Some of you obviously have more knowledge than me when it comes to the finer details. I'm only going by what my ears tell me, and they tell me something is amiss.

For the record: I believe that you hear what you hear, I'm not disputing that. I too hear the louder G4 in your first recording. But I am out of ideas what causes it. Unfortunately I hear nothing wrong in the Billy Joel recording. Sounds perfectly normal to me. About the G4 being louder in that recording than it should be: I can't know, because I didn't play the piece myself. You as the pianist know how hard you pressed the key and what volume to expect, so you notice if the two don't match. Me as the listener, I don't have that feedback. And without it, the end result sounds fine to me. About the "bell like quality", I don't hear that at all. frown Everything sounds normal to me. If it doesn't sound good to you, returning the piano is likely the best option - better than being angry about it all the time.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2818757 02/22/19 09:50 AM
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I listened to all three recordings that you posted, Blue72.

In all three, I consistently heard the G4 sound louder. I also heard it have a very different timbre from its neighbors. But it seems consistent with it somehow playing at a higher "velocity".

This is clearly a significant defect in the piano. I, at least, wouldn't regularly play it in that condition. While the mechanical source of the issue may not be clear, the problem absolutely should be fixed or the whole thing ditched.

Is it true that the dealer or manufacturer are not willing to repair or replace the unit free of charge? Even after sending a technician who did hear the issue, despite making strange contradictory statements as well?

I admit there must be some threshold for which defects cannot be compensated. But I'm surprised that such a serious issue is being deemed unworthy of free repair so soon after purchase. I can only remember hearing great things about Kawai's service.


Beethoven, Bach -> Kawai CA-97 -> Garritan CFX Full -> Neumann Klein and Hummel 310s
Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: arc7urus] #2818765 02/22/19 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by arc7urus
Originally Posted by Blue72
...I'm literally clueless when it comes to anything midi, even when I read about it or someone explains it to me. I thought that would be something that the tech could've/would've checked. When I transposed it up an octave, the bad note went to G5, and the original G4, now G3 was fine. In essence, the problem moved up an octave, so probably not a sensor/key issue? Hope I explained that well enough.

I've also done about a dozen factory resets, and messed with the virtual technician for hours.

In that case it is probably not a sensor issue. Can you please have a listen at this? https://soundcloud.com/ac-635715790/e4-a4-pp-mf-ff/s-ybtBs This is E4-A4 played with three different velocities and recorded directly to USB on my CA98.



Hi arc,

Yours sounds fine to me. I just tried the same on mine with the EX concert grand which I think you used? You can't really hear it until you get to mf, at ff it's ridiculous. This is before you take into account how it reacts when harmonised. I appreciate you giving me something to compare to.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: JoBert] #2818767 02/22/19 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by JoBert
Thank you for addressing my questions.

Originally Posted by Blue72
I'm no expert on these pianos and I'm just speculating like everyone else. Some of you obviously have more knowledge than me when it comes to the finer details. I'm only going by what my ears tell me, and they tell me something is amiss.

For the record: I believe that you hear what you hear, I'm not disputing that. I too hear the louder G4 in your first recording. But I am out of ideas what causes it. Unfortunately I hear nothing wrong in the Billy Joel recording. Sounds perfectly normal to me. About the G4 being louder in that recording than it should be: I can't know, because I didn't play the piece myself. You as the pianist know how hard you pressed the key and what volume to expect, so you notice if the two don't match. Me as the listener, I don't have that feedback. And without it, the end result sounds fine to me. About the "bell like quality", I don't hear that at all. frown Everything sounds normal to me. If it doesn't sound good to you, returning the piano is likely the best option - better than being angry about it all the time.


Hi Joe,

I appreciate not everyone can hear the bell like sound, and the recording does seem to clean it up for whatever reason. I can perhaps hear all the defects because I was present when it was recorded. Even the tech admitted he could hear the difference, he just claimed it was normal.

As for returning it and not being angry, I've been trying to return it since 28th January. I may type like I'm fuming, but I'm more amazed at the overall situation.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2818772 02/22/19 10:23 AM
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You might also forward that issues to a consumer protection organisatino in your country. And mention that you denied a return of an online purchase since 28th January. You might get some effective hellp from them.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: similar] #2818778 02/22/19 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by similar
I listened to all three recordings that you posted, Blue72.

In all three, I consistently heard the G4 sound louder. I also heard it have a very different timbre from its neighbors. But it seems consistent with it somehow playing at a higher "velocity".

This is clearly a significant defect in the piano. I, at least, wouldn't regularly play it in that condition. While the mechanical source of the issue may not be clear, the problem absolutely should be fixed or the whole thing ditched.

Is it true that the dealer or manufacturer are not willing to repair or replace the unit free of charge? Even after sending a technician who did hear the issue, despite making strange contradictory statements as well?

I admit there must be some threshold for which defects cannot be compensated. But I'm surprised that such a serious issue is being deemed unworthy of free repair so soon after purchase. I can only remember hearing great things about Kawai's service.


Hey, I requested a refund after 3 days. Since this, there have been several delaying tactics from the retailer, presumably in some misguided attempt to take me over the refund threshold(30 days), I don't know. This culminated in todays visit from the piano technician. Perhaps in hindsight, requesting a refund, which is a legal right in England, has put them on the defensive. I would have taken a replacement, as I'm convinced they can't all sound like this.

They wont repair it, as they don't think anything is wrong. The tech was in my house for 10 minutes. Nine minutes of this was spent arguing and him telling me about rogue notes. He spent next to no time looking at the actual piano.

Just had an update from the retailer. Kawai haven't got back to them, but I must pay £216 in advance to have it returned to Rimmers music. They will then decide if it's faulty or not.

Amazing.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: lophiomys] #2818783 02/22/19 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by lophiomys
You might also forward that issues to a consumer protection organisatino in your country. And mention that you denied a return of an online purchase since 28th January. You might get some effective hellp from them.


Hey lophiomys,

That's exactly where it's heading. I've already opened a paypal dispute so we'll see what happens.

Thanks for the links you provided to the other threads. Very enlightening. It's amazing how similar my problems are with with different people and different Kawai pianos. Good to know I'm not imagining it all.

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2818784 02/22/19 10:47 AM
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If you did request a return/refund in writing within the time limits, and it was unlawfully declined, that might still be a valid claim.
And consider, that after you have returned the device, it will be very hard to prove anything. Therefore document everything in detail now, and demonstrate the defects to a witness (e.g. your neighbour).

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2818789 02/22/19 11:02 AM
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The 30 days returns policy should be independent of a defect. In the end I couldn't be bothered trying to prove a defect and just returned within the 30 days limit.

Kevin

Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2818820 02/22/19 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Blue72
Originally Posted by lophiomys
You might also forward that issues to a consumer protection organisatino in your country. And mention that you denied a return of an online purchase since 28th January. You might get some effective hellp from them.


Hey lophiomys,

That's exactly where it's heading. I've already opened a paypal dispute so we'll see what happens.

Thanks for the links you provided to the other threads. Very enlightening. It's amazing how similar my problems are with with different people and different Kawai pianos. Good to know I'm not imagining it all.

Are you in US or Europe? I read on this forum that in Europe, one has 2 years to make a return based on a defect.


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Re: Opinions/Advice? [Re: Blue72] #2818837 02/22/19 12:32 PM
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@ Kevin and Tyrone

I'm in the UK.

I can return it without a problem, as long as I pay their £216 return delivery fee. Once they have the piano back and discover that it is faulty, they must return my delivery fee. This also means I have to trust a company that has messed me around for a month to say that it's faulty. Considering Kawai's expert couldn't find a fault, I have little faith in the retailer admitting a fault.

Today I even offered for them to take it back and if they can't find a fault, then to deduct the return delivery charges from my refund. Not good enough for them. They want the return delivery charge up front. Pretty disgusted with it all now.

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